Will Final Fantasy XV's Cid be a Lady?

It does not matter at all which word I use for a certain age if I explain what is meant. And with many teenagers and the few years after teen-age, up to late 20s or early 30s or whatever I have certainly no problem to call them "young". This is not supposed to be a discussion about "I am 30. Does that make me old?"

If I take a 20 year old main character I know I cover many players. If I take one in his/her late 20s or also in their 30s we also have many players. Their might be some guys who want an even older character but that is obviously not the main audience. I also want a non-human character and also not humanoid. That does not mean that everyone wants a Mog or Nanaki just as I do.

Huh, so FFXV's Cid is going to be a woman. Interesting change of trend. I wonder how plot-relevant she's going to be. Probably a person closely connected to the main characters either stationed in a fixed settlement or traveling to new plot-relevant locations every now and then. Would be neat if she were a guest party member at some point. Maybe the car was made by her? Maybe she can upgrade your weapons or provide you with new tools? That'd be neat.

Hmm, did I miss something? Oh, her appearance. Well whatever, I don't really care.

I'm guessing she'll have something to do with the car. Because mechanic

As mentioned, she is mainly there for the adventure of the player but not the main plot. There was an interview with Hajime Tabata. That does not mean that she has no relevance at all, of course. Maybe there is a time when we must meet her at least once.

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It does not matter at all which word I use for a certain age if I explain what is meant.

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But you didn't explain what you meant initially. It was only after you had confused multiple people that you clarified what you meant.

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And with many teenagers and the few years after teen-age, up to late 20s or early 30s or whatever I have certainly no problem to call them "young".

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The phrase "young adult" has an established meaning in common usage. You can't just disregard it because you don't like it and expect people not to comment.

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A 30 year old is for sure no old adult. Do you want to call it "mid-adult"?

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That sounds stupid. "Twentysomething" or "thirtysomething" is fine.

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Originally Posted by Karifean

Hmm, did I miss something? Oh, her appearance. Well whatever, I don't really care.

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It's easy not to care when things don't affect you.

Yes, it is perfectly fine to redefine something that has another meaning already. I use a word, give it a meaning and officially explain it and it does not affect the global definition. I just need to get sure no one confuses one thing with the other. Which I have made clear now. Actually there are even definitions out there which are extremely unclear or definitions that get a new meaning all the time like in Computer Science where you define stuff. It has also fixed defined stuff but even that could technically be redefined safely by pointing out that you mean xy.

Is it helpful? Probably not always when someone is confused but if someone gets what I mean then the purpose is fulfilled. People just need to be aware of that it might be something else which I will explain without problem in case someone is confused. I do not say that other meaning that is normally used by others is wrong.

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Originally Posted by ToriJ

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Originally Posted by Karifean

Hmm, did I miss something? Oh, her appearance. Well whatever, I don't really care.

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It's easy not to care when things don't affect you.

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Indeed it is.

I will start caring when the game does, though.

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Originally Posted by Sephiroth

As mentioned, she is mainly there for the adventure of the player but not the main plot. There was an interview with Hajime Tabata. That does not mean that she has no relevance at all, of course. Maybe there is a time when we must meet her at least once.

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Sounds like she'll be mainly gameplay-relevant for most of the game. Maybe something like O'Aka's role from FFX as the one who provides you with supplies from time to time.

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Originally Posted by Karifean

Huh, so FFXV's Cid is going to be a woman. Interesting change of trend. I wonder how plot-relevant she's going to be. Probably a person closely connected to the main characters either stationed in a fixed settlement or traveling to new plot-relevant locations every now and then. Would be neat if she were a guest party member at some point. Maybe the car was made by her? Maybe she can upgrade your weapons or provide you with new tools? That'd be neat.

Hmm, did I miss something? Oh, her appearance. Well whatever, I don't really care.

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I cannot remember which info dump/interview I read this in, but Tabata said the car would be customizable in FFXV, I think Cidney will have something to do with customization and tunes ups. It would make sense especially if the characters need to sleep to gain better advantage in battle, maybe the car will break down and need to be fixed.

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

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Originally Posted by Shlup

I appreciate that you can acknowledge the outfit is stupid, but to say that's okay with you because you "don't mind" shows me that you are choosing to ignore all the negative impacts this kind of gender inequality and over sexualization of females has on society.

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This is not the case, I just don't think that Final Fantasy is the trigger for that kind of thing, nor do I think that having a sexualised character is a bad thing.

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Having a sexualized character isn't a bad thing. Having the first female Cid be so vastly different from previous Cids in a clearly sexist way is a bad thing, especially if you take a moment to acknowledge that women are sexualized far, far more often than men already. I know you've said repeatedly that "she's fictional" and you believe "Final Fantasy is better than most," as justification for ignoring the disparity between how males and females are treated by media, but that doesn't mean the negative consequences we all deal with go away just because you don't care.

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

Firstly, I consider someone attractive if I consider them attractive, not if they meet certain criteria.

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First you don't care about how the gender disparities between the treatment of fictional characters negatively impacts society, and then you're unable to judge attractiveness by any criteria but your own. Knowing you as long as I have, I'm having a hard time believing you're honestly so unable to step outside of your own perspective. I think you're being stubborn.

If I were to re-do the tally, with the corrections Psy pointed out, I would put Hope and probably Gau as "attractive males" and Realm as an "unattractive female." Hell, let's put Kimahri as an attractive male too, since he has pecs. That would make the male characters 30% unattractive and 14% for the females. So the males are only a little more than twice as likely to be permitted to be unattractive. "Unattractive" people would be the elderly, the non-fit, children under 14, and non-humanoid (Red and Cait Sith). I think it's notable that females are always young and humanoid.

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

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I definitely disagree with you on the first two though. Especially the second one. For your second point you are being very daft.

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See chionos' post. :shobon: Same for the next paragraph you put in, about how there is only one guy who is sexualised because he has an open shirt. I would love to hear from a large group of people who consider themselves to be bisexual to describe what outfits they consider sexy on a guy and then on a girl. I suspect they will not markedly different - in my experience, this is the case, anyway. Girls are generally seen as having a sexy appearance if they are fit and dress skimpy. Guys, if they go around wearing nothing but underwear and showing off their full body, don't tend to get the same treatment. Again, I asked Danielle what she considered sexy on a guy - the "most sexualised" a guy could be for her - and she said showing chest and/or abs (but with a shirt or jacket of some kind) and with some jeans or something on. Bikini top? Hot pants? "No." xD The problem is that the clothes guys are considered to be at their sexiest in tend to be normal clothes. Suits. T-shirt and jeans. Stuff like that. Girls, on the other hand, are seen as sexy in these things, but also seen as sexy in a bikini, or seen as sexy in a low cut top, or seen as sexy in a skirt, thigh high boots, turtlenecks even. A nice dress. Effectively girls tend to be seen as sexy - appearance-wise, obviously - in a much wider variety of clothing, and in some cases it is considered extremely sexy, while guys don't get that kind of thing. That's possibly unfair, but it's just the way people are in a large number of cultures, certainly the ones we live in, in the current world.

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First, you're ignoring the socialization that comes with the difference between what men and women find sexy. Second, you're way off base about what women find sexy. Third, you're ignoring the difference between "sexy" and "sexualized." Fourth, you keep going back and forth between "men are sexualized too" and "the media obviously treats men and women differently." Which is it? Or is this just back to confusing "sexy" with "sexualized" because you have some notion that a woman in a bikini humping a car hood is equal to a man in a suit standing in a place...?

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Originally Posted by Psychotic

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Originally Posted by Shlup

My nipples have seen sunshine in the Happiest Place on Earth many times.

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Why? Like, I'm not judging you on a moral standpoint, I just... what is the context of this? "Hey Mickey, I've got a surprise for you!"?

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Breastfeeding.

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

...and I still think it's not very high on most girl's lists (either that or they simply don't want to admit it ;)).

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Or we're socialized against oogling and hooting. We like crotch bulges, but we are supposed to be the pretty, submissive, sexualized group, not men.

And, yes, I realize that sounds like I'm being an "omg feminist," but I really need you to consider here just how little you, as you said yourself, know about socialization of the genders. I'm not going to pull the "I read books" card here because it would be rude of me to expect you to just take my word for it... I also don't want to cite entire books as my sources. I have a plan! Every time I come across a relevant article, I will forward it to you. Win-win.

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Originally Posted by Spooniest

SO STOP BUYING THEIR GAMES FOR CHRIST'S SAKE

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You've already been told you're being unreasonable here, but I'll just reiterate: I can like something without liking everything about it. If I were to tell you my husband frequently puts dirty dishes back in the cupboard would you say "SO DIVORCE HIM FOR CHRIST'S SAKE"?

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Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Also the main consumers of Final Fantasy are young adults. You also don't make the Pokémon main character over 20 just because some people might want that. If the looks of older characters would interest more people there would be more Dysleys, Tellas or FuSoYas, but cool, good-looking and strong fantasy-anime characters that they want to be like and are interested in are the main aspect.

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Except that they do make Final Fantasy characters over 22, just not females.

And, just for posterity, here's some linkspam that supports my stance:

http://www.apa.org/education/ce/sexu...tification.pdf
http://link.springer.com/article/10....199-006-9147-3
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/0...n_5708921.html
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.230...21105504405683
http://pwq.sagepub.com/content/38/3/398.abstract
https://news.wsu.edu/2014/05/27/stud...s/#.VJoFM_8B_d
http://everydayfeminism.com/2014/07/...fied-by-women/
http://www.alternet.org/story/146396...ou_might_think

For those who think that men and women are equally sexualized, or that the gap between the genders and sexualization isn't all that wide, or that it's not a big deal, or that Cidney should get a pass because... whatever reason: [citation needed]

I'm responding to the volume of text people are devoting to this subject. You don't have to have caps lock on to seem like you're shouting.

Everybody's whining about this or that but no one's suggesting any action and that bothers me.

I know the topic has changed already, but I just wanted to jump in and give a huge sigh of relief, because I always felt like I was in the minority around here with regards to JRPGs and anime, and their ridiculous age structures where they have such a romantic view of high school, they think all their best characters have to be high school aged, even in settings where school and age are pretty irrelevant, and even (more ridiculous) where age and school completely contradict logic in their social and career position. I honestly can NOT play certain games where this is a huge factor, it grates me so badly, and trying to relate to someone who is not only half my age, but also supposedly twice as advanced both intellectually and in their field of study is just absolutely ridiculous, and I cannot seem to suspend my disbelief enough to swallow that or enjoy it

Most recently had this issue with Tales of Xillia, where one of the main character is supposed to be a DOCTOR who is FIFTEEN. My girlfriend and I both agreed to completely ignore his official age, and just consider him something more reasonable. Like ... 20. Possibly a really sheltered 20 to account for his emotionally immature demeanor

But yes, these things have been rampant in FF, and I am honestly surprised to find that aside from Fran, Lulu was the next oldest at 22. I had never realized that, and find it completely ridiculous. Especially considering they're happy to have older guys here and there. But like BoB pointed out, even then their ideas on their ages are still far from reasonable. I too consider Cid from VII to be like 45

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Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Yes, it is perfectly fine to redefine something that has another meaning already. I use a word, give it a meaning and officially explain it and it does not affect the global definition.

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The thing you seem to be refusing to acknowledge is that you are being criticised because you didn't explain it. If you had explained what you meant up front, there would have been no problem.

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Originally Posted by Spooniest

I'm responding to the volume of text people are devoting to this subject. You don't have to have caps lock on to seem like you're shouting.

Everybody's whining about this or that but no one's suggesting any action and that bothers me.

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Uh.

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Originally Posted by Fox_

Discussion on the subject is the solution.

- Publisher does something stupid
- Gets bad press
- Thinks twice before doing it next time.

And, you know, talking about character depictions on video game forums? Surprisingly useful in itself. Because where do the next generation of game developers spend their internet time in their youth? Right here.

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Originally Posted by Vyk

Media sources sometimes pick it up, and it becomes a thing. Sometimes even a phenomenon. Sometimes it forces change.

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I would seriously want to see a game with male characters in it designed by aggressively enthusiastic yaoi fangirls. I would kill to see how the internet would react.

Her outfit is silly. Not prohibitively silly, but it out of place in an otherwise serious and realism-oriented game. She's a mechanic and she has no practical reason to dress like that. Now if Noctis and his crew were a bunch of guyliner'd guys in black bikinis and short blazers there might be room for an argument that it's fair game but they aren't. A character can be attractive, sexy even, without having their agency or ability to be taken seriously away. While Cidney is not a failure of a character just by her design, it creates an impression of the character and her role that the game will have to make an effort to dispel. If she turns out to be the best character ever then that's all well in good but my argument is that she should be able to exist as a sexual and/or dynamic character based on how she's written and framed rather than presenting her in such a way.

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Originally Posted by Shlup

First you don't care about how the gender disparities between the treatment of fictional characters negatively impacts society

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If you would be so kind as to stop repeatedly putting words in my mouth, I'd be really grateful. Do I think sexualising is okay? Yes. Do I think gender disparities are okay? Depends on the gender disparity in question. If I like the taste of Cheddar that doesn't mean I like the taste of all cheeses. Do I think the gender disparities between the treatment of fictional characters, in general throughout all media, negatively impacts society? Yes.

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Fourth, you keep going back and forth between "men are sexualized too" and "the media obviously treats men and women differently." Which is it?

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Both. These things are not mutually exclusive. Men are sexualised, and I think it's ignorant to think otherwise. But men and women ARE treated differently, and I think it's ignorant to think otherwise regarding that, too.