If mako could give you the powers 'Sephiroth' had, then you would expect at least some of the SOLDIER members to display some kind of ESP, but they don't, not even a little. Cloud doesn't either and he has both inside him.
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If mako could give you the powers 'Sephiroth' had, then you would expect at least some of the SOLDIER members to display some kind of ESP, but they don't, not even a little. Cloud doesn't either and he has both inside him.
A mistake in the game? Surely you can do better than that? And Zack had nothing to do with "creating" Cloud. Cloud just took most of Zack's story and put himself in it. Where does Zack's "strong will" come into it?Quote:
The quote 'proving' Sephiroth's strong will seems way out of context, without more explanation I'd even be tempted to say it was a mistake in the game. Zack's strong will created Cloud, Sephiroth's contribution was his reputation, and his little hometown burning and killing spree.
Jenova's reunion is a common factor that ties many parts together, but FFVII is not "about" that. Ultimately it's about Cloud's struggle to find himself, destroy Sephiroth and settle the demons of his past. Oh, and some little thing about saving the world. And why shouldn't Sephiroth be able to change form? He was a member of SOLDIER who experienced incredible exposure to the Lifestream. If mako can turn SOLDIERs into monsters, just think what pure raw Lifestream could do to Sephiroth. Plus, y'know, he's a final boss. They ALWAYS do crazy shape changing trout.Quote:
The game is about Jenova's reunion. It's human hero and 'villain' are both the way they are due largely to Jenova. Everything you see until Cloud goes crazy is about the reunion, the cloaked people, heading to the northern crater etc. etc. The final bosses are Jenova SYNTHESIS, then Sephiroth after joining with Jenova. If you want to claim Sephiroth actually developes the ability to turn into a giant monster, and grow wings without Jenova then well.....
Everyone is near Hojo, nobody stands up and says "Nope, hojo, you're wrong!" and nobody ever does so later (regarding that matter, I mean).Quote:
Again I haven't played in a while, but is anyone with any real amount of dialogue near Hojo when he says it was all Sephiroth?
Again, evil and insanity. Two different things.Quote:
Hojo injects Jenova into his body to give himself time to blow himself up so that the world can be destroyed...that's pretty crazy in my book.
All beings on the Planet are born from the Lifestream, and go back there when they die....except Jenova. For lack of a better word, I doubt very much she was "compatible" with it.Quote:
If Sephiroth got into the lifestream, so did Jenova, I don't see the point.
But the Cetra had all these amazing powers! How can you say that thousands of them could merely trap her, when three people without Cetra powers kick her ass in ten minutes flat?Quote:
The lifeless blob is not only held in a thick metal tank, sealed by Shinra. It can also be diced up and still fight.
It did take most of the Cetra to take down Jenova as far as I know, and unless you hadn't noticed, by the time you fight the full Jenova, when she actually wants you dead, not only do you have some of her strength, your party is also unrealisticly strong.
Off the top of my head I can only think of one person who's directly controlled. The rest of the clones were merely manipulated and lured to the reunion as far as we know.Quote:
The only people ever controlled in the game have Jenova cells in them, why if it's based on strong will (despite insanity), can't other people be controlled.
Why must you emphasize this "omg sephiroth controlled JENOVA OMG WTF SHES POWERFUL" deal? It's just a headless blob as far as anyone else is confirmed -- until Sephiroth comes on the scene. And besides, apart from shapeshifting and impressive strength (which we're only ASSUMING she has because of the effects of her cells, btw, Jenova never actually displays that), what makes Jenova "super powerful"?Quote:
Cloud has both had Jenova in him, and travelled the lifestream, yet amazingly he doesn't even hint at being able to read tea leaves. Sephiroth, although admittedly more exposed developes global ESP, the ability to control super powerful ancient aliens a tiny fraction of which is the reason for his strength, and apparently the ability to mutate and grow wings.
Anyway Cloud does gain knowledge, although it's unspecified. And while he's suffering from Mako poisoning, he has the ability to sense the presence of Weapon.
It's not just a case of Mako exposure though, is it? Sephiroth spent five years absorbing two millenia of knowledge -- It'd be pretty worthless to mention that if there was nothing to show for it.Quote:
If mako could give you the powers 'Sephiroth' had, then you would expect at least some of the SOLDIER members to display some kind of ESP, but they don't, not even a little. Cloud doesn't either and he has both inside him.
Before becoming Zack, Cloud was a nobody. His clothes, sword, personality everything that makes him the way he is basically came from Zack. Emotionally he is himself, the rest is Zack or Jenova. What exactly did Sephiroth give him?
The game is about Jenova's reunion. The saving the world part is stopping Jenova reaching full power and destroying the world. The demons from Cloud's past, and him finding himself are again direct results of Jenova.
Where exactly is the Hojo quote said?
Evil and insanity are indeed two different things, though Hojo never exhibits any sign of being truly evil, he shows plenty of being insane.
Did you just make up that Jenova has no connection to the lifestream? I see know evidence for it.
The Cetra had healing powers, they were a peaceful race. Again your party is unrealisticly powerful by the time Jenova wants you dead.
You don't think being made to travel to a different continent counts as being controlled. Do you think someone told them all there was a half price sale on cloaks going on up there?
What makes Jenova superpowerful? Well being able to survive for millenia, living through space travel, crashing into a planet, being diced up into pieces, her arm being able to fight three people on it's own, tricking an entire race, minute parts of her give people almost superhuman strength, what do you want?
As for it being a lifeless blob, well even after being cut up more it still manages to talk, fight, grow, cast magic, what exactly do you need something to do before you will accept it isn't inanimate?
It is just a case of Mako exposure, just a severe one. Cloud doesn't show any powers that even resemble the ones you claim Sephiroth has, you'd expect him to have some.
I'm still to hear any real evidence of Sephiroth's strong will (which apparently is strong enough to provide the kind of powers that would be far fetched in a cartoon), or of why Sephiroth would want to make Jenova look like him.
No, it's stopping Sephiroth and Meteor. Jenova is taken out of the equation very quickly once the party reaches her.Quote:
The game is about Jenova's reunion. The saving the world part is stopping Jenova reaching full power and destroying the world.
I gave you evidence of his strong will. You called it a mistake in the game (two quotes proving it are a mistake?). I'm not going to try any further. I've also already said why Sephiroth would change Jenova's body to his own human form. Because that is his appearance, and has been for the past thirty or-so years. Tell me why he shouldn't take on his own form?Quote:
I'm still to hear any real evidence of Sephiroth's strong will (which apparently is strong enough to provide the kind of powers that would be far fetched in a cartoon), or of why Sephiroth would want to make Jenova look like him.
We're retreading old ground and this is getting tiring. What claims I could prove (that weren't theories) I have done. You have gone so far as to call the game wrong. All I want from you now is one line that undeniably proves Jenova is masterminding the situation. No more debates, discussions, arguments -- give me that, it's all I ask for.
You haven't proven anything, you've given two vague quotes that don't say anything about Sephiroth developing powers that aren't just unexplained they're unrealistic even for a fantasy game.
You've explained Sephiroth using his own image? How strong a magic do you need to mutate something on the other side of the planet into a duplicate of a human? I doubt that anyone would go to all that trouble just because it's how they happen to look. If you have a remote control toy, going to the effort of taking a photo of yourself and sticking it on the front so it looks like you seems like a lot of effort for no reason, look at what your claiming Sephiroth does.
The game never says that it's Jenova in control, it never says Sephiroth is in control undeniably, Jenova is just a hell of a lot more likely.
It's not about Sephiroth summoning Meteor unless you believe it is, if you don't Jenova isn't taken out quickly at all. Actually even if you believe Sephiroth's in control she still isn't taken out quickly, unless you believe he has the stupid amount of powers you think he has.
You only actually see Sephiroth twice after he goes crazy, and he only speaks on one of those occasions. I don't see why you are so quick to dismiss Jenova.
I agree with Pheonix, but I see where JonJon is trying to get at. I do think you are still overlooking Jenova's role in the game JonJon.
Let me just ask a question here... are most of you forgetting that this is a game...?
Most of your theories are probably possible but the problem is that it's still just a game. A game that is played thru the eyes of a young man and his "friends". They all see Shinra and Seph as the villains, the ones who are out to destroy the world etc... who/what Jenova is doesn't matter to them at first. To them it's clear as day that it's Seph that they are following, and perhaps it is... who knows...
There is no mention to Seph being more powerful than Jenova or that he is in charge the whole time. It's hinted several times that they are both after the same thing, and work together to achieve it. But hey, I've only played this game once so...:D
Personal thoughts on the story we don't see:...
1) "The tank break!"
Don't think it was Cloud... definately not Hojo. What seems most likely is that in fact Jenova broke out herself. Why at that time...? Because Cloud and his party were there and quite frankly would the player want to sit there waiting a few months for something to happen.
2) "The dude they follow..."
Not even remotely sure on this one... most likely Jenova, but could be guided by Seph to the right place...
3) "Final battle"
The idea that Seph is more powerful "storyline vise" on the basis that he is the "final boss" is really dumb... he is the final boss, of course he has to be difficult to beat, and it was decided pretty early on that HE was Clouds enemy in this game, not the "puppet master" Jenova so to speak...
But hey, here's a nice and far fetched theory... perhaps Jenova herself could not absorb the lifestream of the planet and waited for Seph to do it, then kills him, takes back her cells with the lifestreams power in them... HAHA... or not... well...
Naw. It's much more than a game. After all, if it was only a game, all of us wouldn't be here....or have screen names that resemble characters, or sigs that include FF stuff. In all fairness, this one game changed a lot of people's lives (only to small degree, but still....). Although it can get a bit heated in this argument, it still is interesting to read each others' comments and see the storyline from the perspective of a different person.Quote:
Originally posted by Stingray
Let me just ask a question here... are most of you forgetting that this is a game...?
Many people care about the game's story more than that... And some don't.Quote:
Most of your theories are probably possible but the problem is that it's still just a game. A game that is played thru the eyes of a young man and his "friends". They all see Shinra and Seph as the villains, the ones who are out to destroy the world etc... who/what Jenova is doesn't matter to them at first. To them it's clear as day that it's Seph that they are following, and perhaps it is... who knows...
I was merely pointing out the problem of trying to explain something that the designers at Square probably couldn't even really answer...:cool:
2 tru!!!Quote:
Plus, y'know, he's a final boss. They ALWAYS do crazy shape changing trout.
:angel: :chop: <--- FFVII final battle
~MJE~
As far as the game's script goes (the only definitive proof really) I'm not. Jenova is used mainly as a plot device. Not once in the game does it EVER say Jenova is directly controlling anyone. The idea that she plants all the ideas in Sephiroth's head has no basis simply because there is no DIALOGUE in the game to suggest it. The entire villain element revolves around Sephiroth. Jenova is just what ties many of the things together (Sephiroth, soldier, the "clones", Cloud etc...). Like I said, she's a plot device, not a true villain. Where Jenova is a being who devours planets, so to speak, Sephiroth's goal is to become the ruler of the Planet.Quote:
I agree with Pheonix, but I see where JonJon is trying to get at. I do think you are still overlooking Jenova's role in the game JonJon.
Where does Jenova fit in? This doesn't sound like the plan of a being who devours life energy and leaves a planet dead. If Jenova has all this power people claim, why is Sephiroth in the picture at all? Why would she need him?Quote:
By merging with all the energy of the Planet, I will become a new life form, a new existence. Melding with the Planet... I will cease to exist as I am now. Only to be reborn as a 'God' to rule over every soul.
I feel the need to quote probably the best debater on the subject of FFVII, Issa:
Is he wrong? No. There is NO evidence to support some of the frankly absurd claims of power people give to Jenova.Quote:
Furthermore, Jenova is given a lot of credit by believers of the alternative theory. A laughable, ridiculous amount of credit. They paint her as some kind of 'master of control and manipulation', who just fools Sephiroth into doing her bidding. Do you want to know something? There is NOT ONE instance in the game where we know for certain that Jenova is directly controlling anyone... the theory that Jenova controls Sephiroth is laughable. It's a pointless over-complication that relies on every single person in the game being mistaken. Note - every single person in the game. That's a very bold, and quite frankly, arrogant assumption to make.
Furthermore, if Jenova is merely using and controlling Sephiroth, where is his justice? Puppet villains get their justice and forgiveness in Final Fantasy (Kuja, Edea, Golbez...) -- so where's Sephiroth's? He get mercilessly obliterated in the ending of FFVII, and there's not a jot of mention anywhere about "poor Sephiroth" being used by Jenova (since there's also nothing about Jenova controlling anyone...ever). The whole theory of Jenova "the true villain" simply runs rings around simple common sense and goes against everything the game tells us. It's downright wrong.
^observeQuote:
If anybody has any concrete proof stating otherwise, please feel free to prove me wrong.
The evidence to support Jenova's power is that she has it, it's documented, studied, and the basis for most research talked about in the game. Claims of Sephiroth having power require the most extroardinary coincidence in any recent FF game (with the obvious exception of in FF8).
Noone in the game tells us because quite simply noone in the game really has a clear view.
JJB quote: "Where does Jenova fit in? This doesn't sound like the plan of a being who devours life energy and leaves a planet dead. "
Did you read the plan?
Jenova is the heart of the game, she is the strongest being the planet has seen, her story affects almost every main character from way before the start of the game. Sephiroth just happens to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.
What are you talking about Sephiroth's justice? You think his end was fair even on the off chance the game doesn't make sense?
As a baby he was experimented on, he grew up without really knowing who his parents were. He was made as a weapon, not as a human. His tragic life eventually drove him insane, and then he was buried alive severely wounded for five years. Exactly how do you justify his death? Life in FFVII isn't fair, don't assume it should be.
Jenova has power. She (presumably) has super-strength, she can shapeshift and she once was able to pass on a virus to the Cetra that turned them into monsters. Aside from the generic monster abilities (casting some magic etc...) what else is documented? Show me quotes from the game, dialogue that supports your claims.Quote:
The evidence to support Jenova's power is that she has it, it's documented, studied, and the basis for most research talked about in the game.
But you do? You know better than every single character in Final Fantasy VII? Piddle.Quote:
Noone in the game tells us because quite simply noone in the game really has a clear view.
Like I said, Puppet villains get their justice and/or forgiveness. This is just an observation, though, I only count undisputed dialogue as true proof. You have provided none to back up your claims of Jenova being the true villain, simply because there is none.Quote:
Life in FFVII isn't fair, don't assume it should be.
Well although the powers you listed already heavily outweigh any that Sephiroth can reasonably claim to, the fact that people with her cells get drawn across the globe SOLELY to return her to full strength seems pretty concrete that she has powers that the game does not specifically list.
Well given the player sees everything that the people who know the most in the game do, and is probably not insane, or thinking about avenging themselves or their loved ones at the time, then yes I would say they know the most.
JJB quote:
"Like I said, Puppet villains get their justice and/or forgiveness. This is just an observation, though, I only count undisputed dialogue as true proof. You have provided none to back up your claims of Jenova being the true villain, simply because there is none."
Where's Sephiroth's justice? He didn't even know Hojo was killed, not that that makes up for what he went through.
It never says Jenova is in control directly, nor does it say she isn't.
If that's your stance on what you will believe or accept as possible I would think about avoiding the following proffessions:
Law, teaching, police work, social services, research, sciences in general, medicine, anything involving working with people, business...