Explanation on the R=U theory?

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08-29-2006, 09:52 PM
Ryushikaze

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pharoh Amon Khan III

In layman's terms... ? And you didn't answer my questions.

You say something is or could be, you have to give evidence. The bigger the claim, the better the evidence.

And which questions did I not answer?
08-29-2006, 10:51 PM
Pharoh Amon Khan III

"I don't think Sorceresses are 'immortal' or anything like that. However, there have been people to have lived several generations...

IF Rinoa were to become Ultimecia, and let's not focus on the sanity bit, it could be alshiemers; could she have aged normally, but cosmetically not aged, like Sorceress Edea? Edea was about in her 30's when she Succeeded Ultimecia, right? After 18 + years, you kinda wonder she would have aged a little bit, right?. I know we've discussed this some time ago earlier in the thread but we got off topic. What do you think?

Now I have to add, incase I get banned because of my previous outburst, that there is nothing solidly against the possibility of Rinoa becoming Ultimecia and I like to discuss it.

A lot of people will always say things like 'it's not in the game' but the thing is there are a lot things that are not in the game. Most like to stick with the "Happy Ending" but the way I see it, it left me with a lot of questions the second time I played a saved game... Ultimecia still exists in the future, because of the The Fated Children and Ellone, she possesses all Sorceresses through time, but what's "not in the game" is who is the next Sorceress after Rinoa? In the game there are no other Sorceresses other than Rinoa. So who is her successor? This left to speculation of those that want to support the happy ending and causes tension for those that believe that Rinoa could become Ultimecia. The final FMV is suggestive to that suspicion.

Was the visions Squall was seeing a hallucination? Was it Rinoa trying to 'find him'? Was it Squall trying to find a memory to hang onto to bring him back to Rinoa? Or was the exploding helmet a symbolism for Rinoa telling Squall he should have let her die in space as she attempted to? Or was it Squall realizing that it was Rinoa that he need not be afraid of dying, but himself.

More questions than answers. And the battlelines are drawn. I think that Rinoa=Ultimecia should be a discussion and not a debate. No one has any official ruling or 'facts' to support or refute it. It's fantasy and it should be fun to talk about it.

Like in the olden days of FFVI... Did Shadow die at the end? Or did he just continue to wander the world? Was he really Relm's father? The suggests it to the point of "You crazy? OF COURSE HE WAS!", to... Hmm... He could have been a comrade in arms to "Barom" or whoever his partner that fell in combat was, who possibly was Relm's real father. Either way you see it, it's fantasy and fun to discuss.

All the Final Fantasies I have played have always left the players to draw their own conclusion. And whether we see the same conclusion or not the fact is that we all find something we enjoyed. This is not something to be taken seriously like Trekkies or Jedi-Enthusiasts."

I've said my peace.

Now all you did before was take one piece of my original statement and write a counter to it. That's all that you've been doing. You find something that you can counter in someone's statement and turn it to a debate instead of a discussion. I never wrote a 'challenging statement', you take one part anyone's post and make it seem like a debate because that's what you want and that's what you do: You cut the meat from the steak and serve up the fat. Stop doing that.

And please stop using elongated terms. My thesaurus is currently lost right now. And don't make remarks about my 'lack of seriousness'. I'm trying NOT to be serious about this because there's nothing serious about it. You continuosly want to make people look wrong and stupid instead of discussing it with words like "Postulate" Facts, Parsimony... Dude, that's like spitting in someone's face more than anything else like A Christian spitting on different views of Religion... And religion is just like fantasy if you want to look it. And look at how people argue over it. I don't care about a person's 'religion'... I care about their faith that all. I stay open to their views and hear, I don't put them down with 'facts' because fact is, good and evil are just a matter of perspective. And just like in religion people justify their 'facts' for reasons to slaughter a a civilization. I guess I'm just preaching to the choir, huh?:p

Now all of my questions above are "IFs" and views of possible outcome, don't go spitting out "POSTULATE". You can't keep putting yourself on a high-horse, when you don't have a horse to ride on.

I used the FFVI reference because back in the day, we didn't share the same views but we didn't argue over what was 'fact' because there wasn't any... It's fantasy, you're supposed to fantasize about it and try to convence anyone who right or wrong.

IMHO the only reason majority of people hate the idea of R=U is because this was their first or second Final Fantasy and their in love with the pretty FMVs. Their not playing for story, their playing to get to the next FMV and then they fall in love with the "Happy Ending" and just don't want to see it that way. That's fine, but there's nothing wrong with R=U. There's no reason it should forbidden, banned, or hated... People are so caught up in visuals they can't even accept when someone sees Para-Magic a different way.

Basically, the 'arguement' is irrelevant. I'm Baptist, your Mormon.
08-30-2006, 12:04 AM
Ryushikaze

Quote:

IF Rinoa were to become Ultimecia, and let's not focus on the sanity bit, it could be alshiemers; could she have aged normally, but cosmetically not aged, like Sorceress Edea? Edea was about in her 30's when she Succeeded Ultimecia, right? After 18 + years, you kinda wonder she would have aged a little bit, right?. I know we've discussed this some time ago earlier in the thread but we got off topic. What do you think?

I addressed this. Edea looks like a 30 something should look. Where do we get this no cosmetic aging thing from?

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A lot of people will always say things like 'it's not in the game' but the thing is there are a lot things that are not in the game. Most like to stick with the "Happy Ending" but the way I see it, it left me with a lot of questions the second time I played a saved game... Ultimecia still exists in the future, because of the The Fated Children and Ellone, she possesses all Sorceresses through time, but what's "not in the game" is who is the next Sorceress after Rinoa? In the game there are no other Sorceresses other than Rinoa. So who is her successor? This left to speculation of those that want to support the happy ending and causes tension for those that believe that Rinoa could become Ultimecia. The final FMV is suggestive to that suspicion.

It doesn't matter WHO. All that matters is that there IS someone for her powers to be passed onto, as the succession of sorceresses actually proves.

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Was the visions Squall was seeing a hallucination? Was it Rinoa trying to 'find him'? Was it Squall trying to find a memory to hang onto to bring him back to Rinoa? Or was the exploding helmet a symbolism for Rinoa telling Squall he should have let her die in space as she attempted to? Or was it Squall realizing that it was Rinoa that he need not be afraid of dying, but himself.

Parsimony suggests hallucinations. And I fail to see how wild speculation is an unanswered question. It could mean any billion of things. Doesn't mean it does.

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More questions than answers.

Only if you count every wild speculation as a question.

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And the battlelines are drawn. I think that Rinoa=Ultimecia should be a discussion and not a debate. No one has any official ruling or 'facts' to support or refute it. It's fantasy and it should be fun to talk about it.

If you can't support it, it has no validity. Thus, no one needs to refute it. This, it is a non issue and should be allowed to die.

Quote:

Like in the olden days of FFVI... Did Shadow die at the end? Or did he just continue to wander the world? Was he really Relm's father? The suggests it to the point of "You crazy? OF COURSE HE WAS!", to... Hmm... He could have been a comrade in arms to "Barom" or whoever his partner that fell in combat was, who possibly was Relm's real father. Either way you see it, it's fantasy and fun to discuss.

Your analogy is flawed. The shadow peeps are asking "what happened, do we know?" the R=U folks are saying "R is U, how can we support this?". Besides, "Shadow lived" is orders of magnitude less extraoardinary a claim than R=U.

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All the Final Fantasies I have played have always left the players to draw their own conclusion. And whether we see the same conclusion or not the fact is that we all find something we enjoyed. This is not something to be taken seriously like Trekkies or Jedi-Enthusiasts."

This is completely irrelevant to the point that we can use rational analysis to draw conclusions from the events portrayed in games, and that many of these conclusions are far more empirically or logically supported than others. All this handwaving about 'it is fantasy so it doesn't matter' is not going to change that.

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Now all you did before was take one piece of my original statement and write a counter to it. That's all that you've been doing. You find something that you can counter in someone's statement and turn it to a debate instead of a discussion. I never wrote a 'challenging statement', you take one part anyone's post and make it seem like a debate because that's what you want and that's what you do: You cut the meat from the steak and serve up the fat. Stop doing that.

No. Because I'm actually finding what I see as relevant points and addressing those in a point by point. If you feel I ignored something, then let me know. Don't raise a hissy about it.

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And please stop using elongated terms. My thesaurus is currently lost right now. And don't make remarks about my 'lack of seriousness'. I'm trying NOT to be serious about this because there's nothing serious about it.

Then stop taking it so seriously. I've tried to maintain a level tone, but you've been getting insulted this entire exchange.
And I'm not using elongated terms. These are the proper terms to use.

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You continuosly want to make people look wrong and stupid instead of discussing it with words like "Postulate" Facts, Parsimony...

I am discussing it. Words like postulate and parsimony are the words used when discussing the validity of any proposition.

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ude, that's like spitting in someone's face more than anything else like A Christian spitting on different views of Religion...

You are really caught up on religion

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And religion is just like fantasy if you want to look it. And look at how people argue over it.

Well, religion is fantasy. Of course, people argue about it, but they never actually argue about it rationally. If they did, they'd probably realize there's no real support for any of them.

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I don't care about a person's 'religion'... I care about their faith that all. I stay open to their views and hear, I don't put them down with 'facts' because fact is, good and evil are just a matter of perspective.

How did good and evil get into this? I'm talking solely about the legitimacy of claims, and supporting said claims with evidence.

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And just like in religion people justify their 'facts' for reasons to slaughter a a civilization. I guess I'm just preaching to the choir, huh?:p

Ad hominem. And in religion, people justify their desire with made up proclamations from a made up entity. The opposite of the rational method.

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Now all of my questions above are "IFs" and views of possible outcome, don't go spitting out "POSTULATE".

You do realize that that's what those are, do you not? You've postulated that this might be possible. I respond and address the likelihood or the empirical support for these possibilities.

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You can't keep putting yourself on a high-horse, when you don't have a horse to ride on.

What if I didn't want to be on a high horse? What if I wanted to be ruthlessly reviewed by everyone else to see if my suppositions held water, and extended that same viewpoint to the suppositions of others?

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I used the FFVI reference because back in the day, we didn't share the same views but we didn't argue over what was 'fact' because there wasn't any...

You keep saying this, but it's patently false. There are facts in fantasy, under suspension of disbeleif.

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It's fantasy, you're supposed to fantasize about it and try to convence anyone who right or wrong.

Or you can try and rationally understand it, cutting away all the unnecessary explanations.

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IMHO the only reason majority of people hate the idea of R=U is because this was their first or second Final Fantasy and their in love with the pretty FMVs.

Except everyone has told you why they hate it. You do not know them better than they do.

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Their not playing for story, their playing to get to the next FMV and then they fall in love with the "Happy Ending" and just don't want to see it that way. That's fine, but there's nothing wrong with R=U. There's no reason it should forbidden, banned, or hated...

It is a totally unsupported claim, and is contravened at several points within the game itself.

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People are so caught up in visuals they can't even accept when someone sees Para-Magic a different way.

And some people are so caught up in their own interpretations they can't even see that their interpretation is totally unfounded.

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Basically, the 'arguement' is irrelevant. I'm Baptist, your Mormon.

Or I'm a round earther, you're a flat earther. I have evidence. You do not.
08-30-2006, 03:49 AM
Pharoh Amon Khan III

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

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IF Rinoa were to become Ultimecia, and let's not focus on the sanity bit, it could be alshiemers; could she have aged normally, but cosmetically not aged, like Sorceress Edea? Edea was about in her 30's when she Succeeded Ultimecia, right? After 18 + years, you kinda wonder she would have aged a little bit, right?. I know we've discussed this some time ago earlier in the thread but we got off topic. What do you think?

I addressed this. Edea looks like a 30 something should look. Where do we get this no cosmetic aging thing from?

Clearly you don't understand my question. When Edea succeeds Ultimecia, at that time she is 30ish. Now over 15/18 years later, she hasn't aged a day. Clearly the demonstration of Edea transforming her from long to short indicates there may be some means of cosmetic change of the hosts bodies. The horns, scars and wings are also a possible indicator.

Quote:

A lot of people will always say things like 'it's not in the game' but the thing is there are a lot things that are not in the game. Most like to stick with the "Happy Ending" but the way I see it, it left me with a lot of questions the second time I played a saved game... Ultimecia still exists in the future, because of the The Fated Children and Ellone, she possesses all Sorceresses through time, but what's "not in the game" is who is the next Sorceress after Rinoa? In the game there are no other Sorceresses other than Rinoa. So who is her successor? This left to speculation of those that want to support the happy ending and causes tension for those that believe that Rinoa could become Ultimecia. The final FMV is suggestive to that suspicion.

It doesn't matter WHO. All that matters is that there IS someone for her powers to be passed onto, as the succession of sorceresses actually proves.

And you can prove this as fact? Like you said, this is not evident in the game. You can't prove that. Especially after the Fated Children destroyed the Succession of Witches, save for Rinoa. And as the game ends, for the sake of 'in the game 'evidence'... Rinoa is the final Sorceress. Do you understand now? Happy ending or Rinoa could be Ultimecia...

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Was the visions Squall was seeing a hallucination? Was it Rinoa trying to 'find him'? Was it Squall trying to find a memory to hang onto to bring him back to Rinoa? Or was the exploding helmet a symbolism for Rinoa telling Squall he should have let her die in space as she attempted to? Or was it Squall realizing that it was Rinoa that he need not be afraid of dying, but himself.

Parsimony suggests hallucinations. And I fail to see how wild speculation is an unanswered question. It could mean any billion of things. Doesn't mean it does.

Exactly... Ultimecia still resides in the future, and thanks to the Fated Children she has now possessed every Sorceress in that line. Even you nor I can explain the helmut. Your parsimony is only for those that go with hallucinations. What of the parsimony that believe it is Time Decompressing? What of those that believe it is Squall is trying to find something to hang on to to escape Time Compression? You haven't answered those questions except with the one you agree with or your selected majority agrees with. Why are we even debating this? If you read the posts from this past week, you'll see that no one is stating 'parsimony'. Or claiming another person's post is a 'postulate'. You're too caught up in wanting to make this a debate where you destroy the R=U 'Theory'. I'm just discussing it, mostly by posting questions, all you're doing is posting counters. Even the majority can be wrong using them as back-up is not helping you here. You're making this black and white and it doesn't have to be that. And you STILL haven't answered my questions.

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More questions than answers.

Only if you count every wild speculation as a question.

The story itself sparks speculative questions. I saw the ending and left hanging... Why? Because what about Ultimecia... She still in the future and possess her again? If this is a 'happy ending' how come to be? There are no other Sorceresses and Rinoa is the only one... hmmm...

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And the battlelines are drawn. I think that Rinoa=Ultimecia should be a discussion and not a debate. No one has any official ruling or 'facts' to support or refute it. It's fantasy and it should be fun to talk about it.

If you can't support it, it has no validity. Thus, no one needs to refute it. This, it is a non issue and should be allowed to die.

You can't support anything to counter every question of so called 'evidence' that 'supports' R=U either. You have no more 'validity' than I do. I never posted 'evidence'. I posted suggestive ideas and questions, you counter them as if I'm quoting heresy. And you have no say on what should be 'allowed to die'. You have no proof. Stop lording over people with that.

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Like in the olden days of FFVI... Did Shadow die at the end? Or did he just continue to wander the world? Was he really Relm's father? The suggests it to the point of "You crazy? OF COURSE HE WAS!", to... Hmm... He could have been a comrade in arms to "Barom" or whoever his partner that fell in combat was, who possibly was Relm's real father. Either way you see it, it's fantasy and fun to discuss.

Your analogy is flawed. The shadow peeps are asking "what happened, do we know?" the R=U folks are saying "R is U, how can we support this?". Besides, "Shadow lived" is orders of magnitude less extraoardinary a claim than R=U.

I'm not doing that... I'm posting what I think could have happened because it's all centered around the confusing ending of the game. You still think we're/I'm trying to 'prove' R=U. I'm not saying "R is U". When are you going to acknowledge that. I'm discussing it. All you do is slam it and nothing else. Why isn't possible that Rinoa could become Ultimecia after the ending of the game? Because it is a possibility.

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All the Final Fantasies I have played have always left the players to draw their own conclusion. And whether we see the same conclusion or not the fact is that we all find something we enjoyed. This is not something to be taken seriously like Trekkies or Jedi-Enthusiasts."

This is completely irrelevant to the point that we can use rational analysis to draw conclusions from the events portrayed in games, and that many of these conclusions are far more empirically or logically supported than others. All this handwaving about 'it is fantasy so it doesn't matter' is not going to change that.

And again, you miss my point, you're only trying to make a counter-statement to slam what I said. This fantasy, players are left to draw their own conclusion. Same or not. Enjoyed. And not to be taken seriously. Some say that Shadow was not Relm's father; other do. They argue about. Because the dream sequences suggests it both ways. I see the FFVIII does the same.

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Now all you did before was take one piece of my original statement and write a counter to it. That's all that you've been doing. You find something that you can counter in someone's statement and turn it to a debate instead of a discussion. I never wrote a 'challenging statement', you take one part anyone's post and make it seem like a debate because that's what you want and that's what you do: You cut the meat from the steak and serve up the fat. Stop doing that.

No. Because I'm actually finding what I see as relevant points and addressing those in a point by point. If you feel I ignored something, then let me know. Don't raise a hissy about it.

You picking away and finding a chink in the armor. This is not politics.

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And please stop using elongated terms. My thesaurus is currently lost right now. And don't make remarks about my 'lack of seriousness'. I'm trying NOT to be serious about this because there's nothing serious about it.

Then stop taking it so seriously. I've tried to maintain a level tone, but you've been getting insulted this entire exchange.
And I'm not using elongated terms. These are the proper terms to use.

No it is not. I prefer to use words that don't require a thesaurus; you're talking like this a high school debate competition. And you haven't maintained a level tone, other wise you wouldn't have posts like these. You don't exactly scream 'respect'. I crack jokes and use analogies, you shout postulate. Heck you even told me because my jokes you don't take me seriously? Then don't. Ignore me. I've done it with you but keep badging until someone HAS to address you.

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You continuosly want to make people look wrong and stupid instead of discussing it with words like "Postulate" Facts, Parsimony...

I am discussing it. Words like postulate and parsimony are the words used when discussing the validity of any proposition.

No it's not. You may as well be shouting "Stupid" or some racial slur the way you use them. You're not discussing it, your slamming people, otherwise, people would be responding to one of you own original postings. But there are none.

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ude, that's like spitting in someone's face more than anything else like A Christian spitting on different views of Religion...

You are really caught up on religion

Because I grew in the Buckle of the Bible Belt, because my father is a traveling minister, because I've stood by and see something so simple as belief can somehow turn heated even when the question was directed at the person shouting 'postulate' 'parsimony', 'blashphemy'.
I originally started on this thread to find out why this 'theory' is hated and not even given a fair chance to at least be given a clean discussion. You're a good example why. If you don't like, it and can't be peaceful, you don't have to participate. Unless you just love slamming people in these threads. You said it yourself. You've dealt with "my kind"...

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And religion is just like fantasy if you want to look it. And look at how people argue over it.

Well, religion is fantasy. Of course, people argue about it, but they never actually argue about it rationally. If they did, they'd probably realize there's no real support for any of them.

Finally, something we can start to agree on. There is no rationality to religion or fantasy... Just belief. Or faith. And no one is going to understand that except to agree that they have it: Faith/Belief. You don't have to understand it, you just have it.

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I don't care about a person's 'religion'... I care about their faith that all. I stay open to their views and hear, I don't put them down with 'facts' because fact is, good and evil are just a matter of perspective.

How did good and evil get into this? I'm talking solely about the legitimacy of claims, and supporting said claims with evidence.

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And just like in religion people justify their 'facts' for reasons to slaughter a a civilization. I guess I'm just preaching to the choir, huh?:p

Because I'm just stating perspectives and you're taking them as 'theories'. I've been stating mostly questions and leaving them open on the table for discussion. You're pretty much clearing the table and nobody's dug in yet. "Save the leg for me Jimmy!":p

Ad hominem. And in religion, people justify their desire with made up proclamations from a made up entity. The opposite of the rational method.

This is off topic, but you can't take away a person's faith. Be it in a higher deity, or at the very least in themselves. With faith, we have nothing. Faith is the fuel of the spirit with strengthens the soul.

And by that, I don't see anything wrong with R=U. What I don't understand is why there an opposition to it. It's fun. Look at what 'fun' we've had here. We may break the record for the longest time this thread has been 'unclosed'.:p

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Now all of my questions above are "IFs" and views of possible outcome, don't go spitting out "POSTULATE".

You do realize that that's what those are, do you not? You've postulated that this might be possible. I respond and address the likelihood or the empirical support for these possibilities.

Thanks for clearing that up. However, you might want work on you tact.

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You can't keep putting yourself on a high-horse, when you don't have a horse to ride on.

What if I didn't want to be on a high horse? What if I wanted to be ruthlessly reviewed by everyone else to see if my suppositions held water, and extended that same viewpoint to the suppositions of others?

... ... ? Well, you go right ahead there Moses. :p

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I used the FFVI reference because back in the day, we didn't share the same views but we didn't argue over what was 'fact' because there wasn't any...

You keep saying this, but it's patently false. There are facts in fantasy, under suspension of disbeleif.

"Apparently, I haven't invented this device yet, but that's not important"... C'mon... ya gotta admit, that is so half-cocked. You may as well call me Odine.:love:

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It's fantasy, you're supposed to fantasize about it and try to convence anyone who right or wrong.

Or you can try and rationally understand it, cutting away all the unnecessary explanations.

There's just too many in this game. Like I said, if Ultimecia is still in the future... :greenie:

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IMHO the only reason majority of people hate the idea of R=U is because this was their first or second Final Fantasy and their in love with the pretty FMVs.

Except everyone has told you why they hate it. You do not know them better than they do.

No, not everyone has told me. I don't claim to know everyone. I could be wrong.

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Their not playing for story, their playing to get to the next FMV and then they fall in love with the "Happy Ending" and just don't want to see it that way. That's fine, but there's nothing wrong with R=U. There's no reason it should forbidden, banned, or hated...

It is a totally unsupported claim, and is contravened at several points within the game itself.

I don't understand, how so?

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People are so caught up in visuals they can't even accept when someone sees Para-Magic a different way.

And some people are so caught up in their own interpretations they can't even see that their interpretation is totally unfounded.

... ... ... And yet some are so caught up with their own interpetations they can't even see anything else or allow others to or see that their interpetations are unfounded either.

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Basically, the 'arguement' is irrelevant. I'm Baptist, your Mormon.

Or I'm a round earther, you're a flat earther. I have evidence. You do not.

What evidence? Why can't Rinoa be Ultimeica? Don't say the immortality thing because I don't believe it either. Just two weeks ago, a local woman born in 1933 turned 133? Yeah, I know... :eek:

So I see it... possiblity. Maybe the Sorceress Power kept her from cosmetically aging like Edea. Who at 30 and after 18 years later did not age a day. I dunno... could be... could be....:)

Til then, I don't want to argue with you anymore Jackson. You have a good night and good life. Till next time kiddles when you'll hear me say:

... "Mommy, put the kids to bed, and the aspirin, Daddy's got a headache."
08-30-2006, 04:29 AM
Leeza

Pharoh Amon Khan III and Ryushikaze, I'd like the two of you to put each other on ignore. I'm closing this.

Pharoh Amon Khan III, you have been asked before and I'm telling you again...quit it with the double posting.

*closes*

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