two sephiroths

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"Anyone with this knowledge can freely use the powers of the Land and the Planet. That knowledge interacts between ourselves and the planet, calling up magic..... or so they say."

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Only Condensed mako energy-Materia allows people to use the knowledge as magic... At least that is all that is mentioned.

JonJonB--- You keep making accusations that we are not using "real evidence". Ok then...

It never says Sephiroth had a strong will. You assume that because he was able to absorb the Life energy. But all of that is assumtion. There is no real proof for that. Where is the real evidence that says his strong will did all this? Where is the "real" evidence that says Jenova had nothing to do with Sephiroth's intentions?
Because it's not stated? Sephiroth never said his knowledge gave him power, yet you use the evidence of Materia being able to give people powers. Mako is not Life energy, it is condensed so people can use it.

If you keep saying no one is giving real proof, then I refuse to debate your theory, as any evidences I and my fellow forum members post will be considered "Not real"

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I'm not going to answer that on grounds that I won't tolerate flaming, or arrogance of that level. I may have just contradicted myself, but it really wasn't intentional.

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I agree...

when sephiroth is thrown into the lifestream by cloud... sephiroth is holding jenova's head...

i just noticed this from playing through it before... i don't think anyone has thought about it, but it could be important.

i dunno, too tired to think, but i had a good idea...

We have discussed it briefly, it's a good reason why Sephiroth's power shouldn't be attributed to mako, it also explains why Sephiroth is a key feature in Jenova's plans.
Though it sounded like you had more to add so I'll wait and see what your ideas are.

well, it was basically that jenova (in the shinra building) is directly linked to sephiroth (in the lifestream)... so jenova is kinda like, the main villain... the one who controls sephiroth and projects his image (from her head in the lifestream) to the upper world, so she looks like sephiroth?

i dunno, it sounded good in my head :P but something along the lines of that maybe?

Ok, to clear up this "real evidence" thing.... :choc:

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It never says Sephiroth had a strong will. You assume that because he was able to absorb the Life energy.

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No, this part is not assumption. His "strong will" is clearly mentioned (I've already provided quotes) and there is also mention of just his "will", which I will provide proof for if you desire.

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Where is the real evidence that says his strong will did all this?

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This is where it may confuse people what I mean by my statements of "real evidence". The theory that his strong will is what he uses to control Cloud and Summon Meteor is just that -- a theory. I've provided some things that I think might support it, but I can't give definitive evidence that it's true. The difference between this and the "Jenova theory" is that mine works with everything the game says about Sephiroth being the villain. The Jenova theory turns all of that on it's head, and pretty much defies everything we learn about the true threat to the Planet.

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Where is the "real" evidence that says Jenova had nothing to do with Sephiroth's intentions?
Because it's not stated?

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Because it's not stated or ever even remotely suggested, I point blank refuse to believe the idea that Jenova is the true villain.

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Sephiroth never said his knowledge gave him power, yet you use the evidence of Materia being able to give people powers. Mako is not Life energy, it is condensed so people can use it.

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Of course Mako is Life Energy. Why do you think the Planet will die if Shinra continues to "suck Mako" from it non-stop? Now maybe Mako is a more condensed form of Lifestream when it comes up from the planet, or maybe they're both the same damn thing -- either way, Mako is without a doubt life energy. Materia is condensed Mako. Materia holds the knowledge of the ancients, thus Mako must also hold such knowledge. Mako comes from the lifestream (either that or it's just plain another term for Lifestream), therefor the Lifestream holds the same knowledge. If you have materia, you can use that knowledge freely. Why then, if you absorb the Life energy materia comes from and gain that same knowledge, would you not also be able to use it in the exact same manner?

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If you keep saying no one is giving real proof, then I refuse to debate your theory, as any evidences I and my fellow forum members post will be considered "Not real"

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No. By real proof, undeniable proof, I mean actual undisputed dialogue from the game. There is nothing of this kind that even slightly hints that Jenova is pulling the strings, which is why I won't ever believe that theory. If you feel you have a line from the game that proves me wrong, something I've missed in my dozens of playthroughs of FFVII, then go right ahead and provide it.

We have said several times, there isn't a quote in the game.
What there is, is sheer logic.
To say Sephiroth absorbed the mako requires the assumption that he has the ability to do what other (saner) humans, and hugely powerful aliens cannot. That is assuming also that mako gives uncharted psychic abilities and other unbelievable powers, and that Sephiroth can use them when Cloud just went crazy. Neither of these assumptions have any dialogue to confirm them.
The idea of Sephiroth being in control also requires assumptions on an even grander scale, mainly involving a mere human being stronger than a space travelling, mind controlling, superstrong, psychic, alien. He also just happens to use the exact powers that Jenova has, and on the exact people she would want them used on. He also has the exact same desires Jenova had.
However in the game Cloud has a vendetta against the crazy guy who he saw burn down his hometown, he therefore mentions a desire to kill him, and doesn't spot the plan Jenova has had several years sitting still to think up. So this makes all those assumptions perfectly reasonable...

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To say Sephiroth absorbed the mako requires the assumption that he has the ability to do what other (saner) humans, and hugely powerful aliens cannot. That is assuming also that mako gives uncharted psychic abilities and other unbelievable powers, and that Sephiroth can use them when Cloud just went crazy. Neither of these assumptions have any dialogue to confirm them.

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Well, the first "assumption" that he can absorb the Mako isn't really an assumption. Sephiroth flat out says he gained the knowledge, it's there and it's an in-game fact.
As for "uncharted psychic abilities"...two words: Manipulate Materia. If regular people can use this ability with materia, why can't Sephiroth do so after gaining the Cetra's knowledge in the Lifestream.

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The idea of Sephiroth being in control also requires assumptions on an even grander scale, mainly involving a mere human being stronger than a space travelling, mind controlling, superstrong, psychic, alien.

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Sephiroth, a "mere human"? Perhaps the whole point of what Sephiroth is slipped your mind. Sephiroth is someone born with the powers of Jenova who, later in life, went on to absorb the knowledge (and therefor Planetary power) of over two millenia of civilizations. And on a side note, Jenova is never seen to control anyone's mind or use any psychic powers.

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He also has the exact same desires Jenova had.

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Not really. It's never said anywhere that Jenova's wish was to become a God and rule over every soul. She just likes to devour life energy.

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However in the game Cloud has a vendetta against the crazy guy who he saw burn down his hometown, he therefore mentions a desire to kill him, and doesn't spot the plan Jenova has had several years sitting still to think up. So this makes all those assumptions perfectly reasonable...

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Not really. All hidden truths in FFVII are either revealed or hinted at in not-so-subtle ways before the game's end. Why should this supposed "truth" be any different? I'm sorry, but when it comes to a choice between your "sheer logic" and everything we're ever told throughout the game, from beginning to end, I know which one I'd pick to be correct.

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Well, the first "assumption" that he can absorb the Mako isn't really an assumption. Sephiroth flat out says he gained the knowledge, it's there and it's an in-game fact.

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He says he gained KNOWLEDGE, even if that's where he got it, he never mentions all the other ridiculous things he's meant to get out of it.

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As for "uncharted psychic abilities"...two words: Manipulate Materia. If regular people can use this ability with materia, why can't Sephiroth do so after gaining the Cetra's knowledge in the Lifestream.

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Sephiroth is regular, he's only crazier, and had a higher degree of modification than Cloud. Manipulate materia not only needs to be equipped, it isn't even on the scale as far as Sephiroth's powers go, he also demonstrates the ability to mutate for one.

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Sephiroth, a "mere human"? Perhaps the whole point of what Sephiroth is slipped your mind. Sephiroth is someone born with the powers of Jenova who, later in life, went on to absorb the knowledge (and therefor Planetary power) of over two millenia of civilizations. And on a side note, Jenova is never seen to control anyone's mind or use any psychic powers.

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Sephiroth was given Jenova cells, he did NOT have her powers, only a slight increase in strength and maybe reflexes etc. You are assuming everything about powers being absorbed. Jenova does all that mind trickery millenia before Sephiroth was even born.

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Not really. It's never said anywhere that Jenova's wish was to become a God and rule over every soul. She just likes to devour life energy.

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No but funny how Sephiroth's 'goal' involved killing the last Cetra, pretty much destroying the planet, and reuniting Jenova.

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Not really. All hidden truths in FFVII are either revealed or hinted at in not-so-subtle ways before the game's end. Why should this supposed "truth" be any different? I'm sorry, but when it comes to a choice between your "sheer logic" and everything we're ever told throughout the game, from beginning to end, I know which one I'd pick to be correct.

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You only assumed your first two sentences, and without anything to back them up. Anyway the game hints at it the whole time through, more through learning about Jenova and Sephiroth than anything else, then the last fight with Sephiroth can be interpretted in many ways.

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All hidden truths in FFVII are either revealed or hinted at in not-so-subtle ways before the game's end.

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Then maybe you can tell me from watching the ending if the humans survived at the end of the game? :rolleyes2 I disagree; there's quite a bit of very significant storyline that is left to the player to unravel. It differs from player to player, but it's there.

~MJE~

I didn't mean to say Mako wasn't life anergy. I meant to say it was "condensed" life energy. Sephiroth's strong will is stated but it doesn't state that it could do all that you say it could. If there is a quote that supports that idea, excuse that statement, as I haven't played the game in a while. I read a lot of "nos" and "not reallys" in JonJonB's posts so I'll just leave it at that.

O.k. listen people...here is the true story. Sephiroth died in nibelheim...he was reicnarnated into a bird right, and then he pooped on midgar...The poop eventually got tracked onto the streets and hojo stepped in it...Then hojo went back to his lab and the poop got onto the floor, and jenova sucked up the poop and turned into sephiroth!

Jesus Christ you people read too deep into the game man.

I have kept away from this section for a while, so I apologize on the late reply or if something has already been proven wrong.

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Originally posted by JonJonB
I'm sorry, but none of that's good enough for me. When there's something so majorly important in a story, there is mention of it. At the very least there is a barrage of hints, subtle or otherwise. But there is NOTHING to suggest Jenova is the true power who is controlling the situation, it's always Sephiroth, Sephiroth, Sephiroth.

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I don't seem to recall there is anything suggesting that Sephiroth used his strong will to control Jenova's headless body. However, I suppose you will once again refer to these quotes:

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Originally posted by JonJonB
Hojo
"But being a genius that I am, I soon figured it out. You see it
was all Sephiroth's doing."
"Sephiroth is not just content to diffuse his will into the
Lifestream; he wants to maniplate the Clones himself."

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You call this evidence? Explain to me how Hojo knows it was all Sephiroth. Oh right, Hojo is a self-proclaimed genious and therefore must be the only one to understand the truth. Like father like son, so daddy must known everything about Sephiroth. You say it's true because it's never disputed? I could say there is a headless polar bear in the middle of a desert in Africa, and it's highly possible nobody could ever prove what I said was wrong. It doesn't necessarily mean it is right though.

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Originally posted by JonJonB
Cloud
"He's here. the real Sephiroth is just beyond here."
"It's both incredibly wicked and cruel..."
"But it's releasing a powerfully strong will from deep within
this planet's wound."

Cloud
"The combination of Jenova cells, Sephiroth's strong will, and my
own weaknesses are what created me."

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So, what you're saying is that Cloud knows everything, correct? He said these things, Big Deal. There's no direct line from the game that explains WHY he knows this. Oh right...Sephiroth must have used his STRONG WILL to tell Cloud this. Wow, Sephiroth really is a manipulating machine....it's too bad nobody else from the game is aware of this strong will except for Cloud.

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Also posted by JonJonB
I don't think we should rely on Cloud's possibly confused conclusions as gospel truth.

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There, you said it. We shouldn't rely on Cloud's conclusions, hence, we cannot believe what Cloud said about Sephiroth's strong will and manipulation is true.

I haven't played the game in a while, but I would like to see a quote from a person other than Cloud mentioning the strong will, even though this is pointless because nobody should technically know of it.