2013-14 English Football Season

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Originally Posted by Heath

Did you actually watch much of Everton the last couple of seasons? If you think we played turgid football which was awful to watch, then you obviously have higher expectations of Everton than me.

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I'm not going to claim to be the Everton expert, no. I saw the odd game - I think I saw one v Chelsea and another v Spurs, but obviously what I did see were the derbys and his approach to them: 10 men behind the smurfing ball. Now, in the era when we were Champions League regulars fair enough, but it carried on even when we were midtable dross. And, well, I don't want to have to mention the Cup semi. He choked. Big time.

Regardless of that though, you will know far more about Everton than I do so if you tell me it wasn't always like that then I'll take your word for it and retract my turgid claims.

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but he's hardly Tony Pulus or Alan Curbishley.

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I sort of think he is. :shobon: Pardew, Allardyce, Moyes, Mark Hughes.

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

To be fair, Martinez is living with Moyes' players

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But is he? Everton's best players this season have been - and Heath can feel free to weigh in if he wishes! - Coleman, Lukaku, Barkley, Barry and Delof...I'm not even going to try to spell it. 3 of them are Martinez signings, and Barkley barely got a sniff under Moyes - he's had more games under Martinez than 3 years under Moyes.

And yeah, I do point to the manager as opposed to the players. This is the sodding squad that just won the league! Minus an ancient Scholes, add Fellaini, Zaha and Januzaj and it's the exact same squad. If anything, it should be better. If it's just the players, you can't tell me that Ferguson would be languishing in 7th right now. I refuse to accept it.

I'm not saying it's just the players, as I said, it was always going to be a downgrade - but the things that they are struggling with are not the things I would expect to change between seasons. This isn't a case of poor selection, this is a case of our defence in the last match not understanding how to hold a line all of a sudden. Your manager controls how hard you attack and whatnot, sure - he also controls the selections and such things. But the players themselves were capable of smurfing up in previous seasons and in this match they were punished heavily for it because they did it to absurd degrees. I wouldn't have held SAF responsible for these smurfups either.

"Pardew, Allardyce, Moyes, Mark Hughes" - come off it, mate. None of them achieved what Moyes has, and if they ever got a sniff at it, they couldn't pull it off a second season. Hughes did okay at Blackburn for a while, but never as high as Moyes was.

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

None of them achieved what Moyes has

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What has Moyes actually achieved?

A better points per season average than the rest of that lot by some distance, I'd imagine, with a very light budget to work with. Probably the best points-per-pound manager in the league for managers that have been around for more than one season at a PL club...?

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

Probably the best points-per-pound manager in the league for managers that have been around for more than one season at a PL club...?

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Fourteenth best, as it happens. You're a man who loves statistical analysis so you might enjoy that - sets him pretty much the equal of Mr. Allardyce. You might also enjoy this lovely analysis on the man himself and how after a good start he began to underperform based on the funds available. But hey that would go against the myth set out by his mates in the media.

Got any more achievements for him? ;) Perhaps ones more fitting of a club of Manchester United's stature like the ones Jose Mourinho, Carlo Ancelotti or Rafael Benitez (all available this Summer!) have.

I didn't say 'based on transfer expenditure', and the fact that it's the big club managers that dictate that list makes it a laughable example of which manager has done the best with limited finances. Even bloody Mancini is high up on it (although admittedly only four spots above Moyes, it should be noted), and we all know he spent more than a pretty penny!

Anyone who has played Football Manager knows that while a good transfer kitty is nice, there is a massive difference in the revenue a club has when you drop from the Uniteds, the Liverpools and the Arsenals (let alone Chelsea and City) down to the clubs that actually struggle to find a way to pay for a player's wages.

The biggest surprise on that list is indeed Sam Allardyce, though. Never thought he did that well. 14th of 162 PL managers? Huh. Who knew? I will also point out the conclusion of the same writer who put together that article...

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For Everton to truly compete with the Big Six they need a much bigger stadium and other sources of revenue to support the spending that is required. In a drive to balance their books and look for additional investors, Moyes and the club will have to go back to the days of a starting XI that costs around £45M and enjoy the financial benefits of weekly wages that are also at lower levels.

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In the comments on his article on Moyes, he even concedes that there are definite flaws in the system he is using, such as the Rooney situation. It is a very good system for analysing points per transfer fees paid for players, but does not take into account overall financial situations at the club, nor does it even consider how much net spend was used - only total outgoing expenses.

EDIT: You mention Jose Mourinho, Carlo Ancelotti and Rafael Benitez for a second time after previously admitting yourself that you understand why they didn't go for them? C'mon, dude. Available does not mean a better candidate.

EDIT: After analysing the list a little more, once you take away the managers who have had the luxury of big money at Liverpool, United, City, Chelsea and Arsenal (I would mention Spurs, but there are no Spurs managers above Moyes, ha)...

1. Frank Clark - Nottingham Forest, early 90's, non-comparable.
2. David O'Leary - Leeds United, noted for overspending in a way that is not financially stable.
3. David Moyes - Hi!

Well of course it's not a perfect analysis but at the same time it's still researched and calculated to a higher degree than you or I are willing to do, and as such is more accurate than our perceptions of any manager. Either way, yes, better clubs have better budgets and it's a world of difference between them and the teams further down the table... which is precisely why the man is out of his depth!

Also, I know why Benitez wasn't possible, but why not Mourinho, and definitely why not Ancelotti? Why not try and nick Jurgen Klopp off Dortmund? Heck, what Pellegrini did with Villarreal actually matches the pro-Moyes media brigade's vision of what Moyes did with Everton, why not him? Roberto Martinez...? Fabio Capello? Sven, even? While we're talking about England managers, even Steve McClaren has achieved more success than Moyes ever has... and he was assistant at United when they won the treble. ;)

Ancelotti is currently managing Real Madrid, and it may well be that managing Real Madrid is a more attractive job than following up Sir Alex Ferguson. I think he was booked some time ago for this job, too, much like Mourinho was booked some time ago for Chelsea and Moyes was booked some time ago for United.

Mourinho struggles to create attractive attacking football (look at how quickly he has undone the work turning Chelsea into an attractive attacking team last season... this season they have found themselves more and more lacking as time has gone on), prefers to take on short term "projects" and let's face it, he was always going to Chelsea, everyone knew it.

Capello is too old.

I would not have minded any of the above, but I never would have imagined them to happen. Same goes for Guardiola. Martinez was doing okay at the time United were picking their manager, sure, but he had done far, far less than Martinez had done. It should also be noted that while he did lead Wigan to the FA Cup, Wigan were also relegated days afterwards.

The end result, though, is that United wanted Moyes and it's fairly safe to say the people who picked out Moyes had a lot more brain for this than we do. They wanted someone who could provide long term stability at the club and someone that managed things from top to bottom, and that's the kind of person Moyes is. I don't know how true that is for other managers, but Moyes was considered the best fit for United, and given that he's always been touted as one of the candidates for years, I'd say he deserves his shot.

As if you actually think Sven and Steve are better candidates. Didn't you look at the link you just posted earlier? Where are they on that table? :p

Oh a cost-effective PL table for 11/12 Ask Norman: The cost-effective Premier League table - ESPN FC if you'd like to do it your way. I can't find one for last year, but yeah. Your boy languishing in 8th. Guess who the manager of the team #1 on that list manages now :D

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

As if you actually think Sven and Steve are better candidates. Didn't you look at the link you just posted earlier? Where are they on that table? :p

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Sven's higher than Moyes on it xD McClaren has had a lot of success abroad and that isn't recorded on it.

Oh, right, I forgot Sven was in charge of City during their big spending days. Pretty sure he was also considered a failure given how much they spent. :p

Single season stats are not a huge interest to me, let me know which managers end up top over the long term.

Oh, wait, you already posted that list and Moyes was the top candidate of those that weren't managing "big clubs", are still managing today and didn't lead their club into financial ruin. :shobon:

EDIT: Sunderland make more money than Newcastle? O_o

EDITRA: Ohhh, that's "Squad Cost" once more. Dude, that's not "doing it my way", that's exactly the same as the previous way you were doing it. xD

We're missing Cuchulainn to be the guy who stands just behind BoB and nods his head while occasionally mouthing "Ya wee :bou::bou::bou::bou:."

Cuch is usually a few steps in front of me saying exactly that, in capital letters. ;)

Cuch thinks Moyes is a barrel of wee ballbags and he'd be on my side!

Well the FA Cup was merely a distraction from all the other competitions we're going to lose in.

Now you can concentrate on staying up :smug: