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This is prolly the most correct statement ever put in this thread. When Kefka and the Goddess statues are destroyed -all- magic ceases to exist. Not like in the FFX world when all the summons go away but you can obviously be a black mage or white mage in FFX-2. When the statues go, so does magic even the simple ones like fire.Quote:
Originally Posted by YTDN
Sorry but i never played FFVI. Ryushikaze said that Kefka didn't have controll over all magic, and what i know about the game is that is possible to hurt(and kill) Kefka with magic, and because of this, i thought that existed some magic not related to the Goddesses(i heard that the power of the Espers are not related to their power).
If Kefka have controll over all magic, how the heros could kill him with it?!
Kefka did have control over all magic. It's just that other people ALSO probably had control over it. For example, Ifrit is the demon of fire and controls all fire magic, but it doesn't mean you can't use Fire spells as well. This is my guess. Besides, the heros beat Kefka because Square had let you beat him SOMEHOW.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Crystal
And also, somehow, even if Sephy did control the Lifestream, I still think you would be able to use a certain magic. After all, monsters in FFVII had magic as well. It just means he can have access to all magic, but I don't think he could restrict other people from using it.
At the end of the game after Kefka's defeat the party starts to freak because Terra is half-esper and Espers die. The main reason Terra lived after Kefka's defeat was because she found her humanity (by caring for the children in Molbiz) if anything, watch the ending, Espers go, Magic goes and for like 2 minutes everyone thinks Terra's going to go until someone conveinently says she's HALF esper.Quote:
Originally Posted by PuPuKefka did have control over all magic. It's just that other people ALSO probably had control over it. For example, Ifrit is the demon of fire and controls all fire magic, but it doesn't mean you can't use Fire spells as well. This is my guess. Besides, the heros beat Kefka because Square had let you beat him SOMEHOW.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Crystal
And also, somehow, even if Sephy did control the Lifestream, I still think you would be able to use a certain magic. After all, monsters in FFVII had magic as well. It just means he can have access to all magic, but I don't think he could restrict other people from using it.
Ifrit was an Esper, I got his magicite, he died from Magic Extraction. =[
He existed because of the Goddess' statues (which we do realize they arn't all named 'Goddess' right?) Kefka was extracting the magic from each esper, since Espers and Magic are on the same line as the statues, he went for the largest concentration of magic he could, and obviously he got it, then he died, the statues broke, and magic ceases to exist. It says it at the end.
:razz:
Ah, i understand now. Yeah, maybe this is what happened. But i think that if he was the source of all magic, the spells that were threw against him should have made him more powerfull, not more weak.Quote:
Originally Posted by PuPuKefka did have control over all magic. It's just that other people ALSO probably had control over it. For example, Ifrit is the demon of fire and controls all fire magic, but it doesn't mean you can't use Fire spells as well. This is my guess. Besides, the heros beat Kefka because Square had let you beat him SOMEHOW.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Crystal
And also, somehow, even if Sephy did control the Lifestream, I still think you would be able to use a certain magic. After all, monsters in FFVII had magic as well. It just means he can have access to all magic, but I don't think he could restrict other people from using it.
Ah, and in the "even if Sephy did control the Lifestream", please, remove the "even if". He made his tainted Lifestream cover the entire sky, with just a wave of his hand. Sephiroth could controll the Lifestream. Don't exist any "if" or "but" about this.
Sephiroth have poor motives, and don't have any personality at all. But talking about power, he practically have the same power of Kefka. People are used to think that Sephiroth is more weak than Kefka, because of what they did in their games. But the truth is that, in AC, Sephiroth reached the same power level of Kefka.
Kefka fans, i'm sorry, but this is the truth, you like it or not.
What I don't understand is if Sephiroth had power over the lifestream to the extent you say, why didn't he just flood the world with lifestream. The lifestream almost killed Cloud (alot of things almost kill Cloud though..) so it should do a fairly good damage to the worlds population. I'm also pretty sure I hit Sephiroth with magic a couple of thousand times.
And you understanding PuPu was wrong(No offense to Pu), Kefka wasn't the source of all power by any means but at one point, while in the middle of the statue triad, spells are thrown at him, they're just basically deflected into nothing. No final boss absorbs magic, if that happens when the world of video games is screwed.
Point being, Magic = Statues, No Statues = No Magic, Espers = Magic, No Statues = No Espers.
I'm also pretty sure I hit Sephiroth with magic a couple of thousand times.
You have to understand that i'm talking about AC Sephiroth. In AC he was litterally, a god. He has controll over most of the Lifestream(that have the same power of the Goddesses) and could corrupt the rest of it, easilly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Avarice-ness
You question me, if he had so much power why didn't he just flood the world with Lifestream? But this was exactly what he was doing in the end of AC. Tainted Lifestream covered the sky, and then begun to descend like "tentacles", to destroy everything.
And Sephiroth was deffeated in AC, only because he decided not to use his full power, and only play with Cloud. Kefka would not destroy the world, before making people suffer. And Sephiroth would not destroy the world before making Cloud suffer. But the truth is that, both of them could have destroyed the entire world/s if they wanted.
*yawn* Destroy a world? Kuja was there. Did that. He's onto bigger things...like destroying existence. While it was a plot device, it was clearly intended to show hwo he surpassed everyone. He DID destroy a planet which all of them failed to do for one reason or another and he was going onto wipig out existence.
No, he is not. Not Kuja or Kefka, either.
Vayne, FTW! I don't feel like backing-up my opinion.
Sephy didn't control all of Lifestream. Maybe about 1/2. This is my reason why:
In FFVII, Sephy said he wanted to use Meteor, not to destroy the world, but to leave a huge dent on it. Then he said Lifestream would come and heal that part of the planet, so he could absorb Lifestream's power and become a god. If he did have control of all of it already, he would have already won.
I'm not too sure about AC though, because he did use Geostigma to corrupt it, but it didn't really go much further than that. After all, the movie was mainly about Cloud and his own problems.
One thing I'm also not sure about is if Aerith controls some portion the "pure" Lifestream. I know Lifestream is controlled by the planet, but I'm thinking that maybe she does too, because in the end of FFVII, after it shows Lifestream gathering around Holy to stop Meteor and then shows Aerith. I'm thinking it means that she was the one responsible for that. And in AC, she also cured Geostigma and purifying the Lifestream which Sephy tainted in the end of the movie.
Except her GG had absolutely no effect on Kadaj, who remained perfectly coherent until her voice, her words, convinced him to 'return'. As for the tainted stream, it was already dissolving after Cloud's whupassing of Sephypoo, so Aerith's contribution is questionable.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Crystal
I'm also curious where you're getting that Aerith had more control over the lifestream in AC, since she didn't do a grand lot with it in the movie (not that she did a lot on her own in the game either, but eh)
Which he did not control all of.Quote:
Yeah, and "these" "things he could control" is the source of all power in the FFVII universe.
Lifestream is raw energy, raw life energy. Great Gospel is merely a thing one does with it.Quote:
Normal Lifestream is very powerfull, as a force of destruction and as a power that can cure others(like Aerith did in the movie).
As mentioned, it vanished at Sephy's defeat. Aerith's GG happened after that. I've seen logical fallcies in my day, but "Event A occured before Event B, thefore B caused A" is a new one.Quote:
But the corrupted Lifestream was not affected by it, was the contrary, the corrupted one was affecting the pure one(corrupting it). The truth is that the corrupted Lifestream by itself, is not really more powerfull than the pure one, but with Sephiroth's will controlling it, it was more powerfull.
After Cloud deffeated Sephiroth his will was more weak, and then Aerith could use her Great Gospel to destroy the rest of it.
And no. The corrupted lifestream was not tainting the untainted. Pure was turned into tainted by a long and complex conversion process (Geostigma), and it began purifying as soon as what was keeping it contaminated vanished. I'd say pure outpowered tainted.
No. Sephiroth cannot. And if you wish to insist he can, PROVE IT.Quote:
But Sephiroth can controll all the magic if he want, but Kefka can't.
As other people have said, there is no such thing as non Goddess Magic.Quote:
For example, someone attack Kefka with a magic that is not related to the statues. What he can do? Deffend himself. Now someone attack Sephiroth with magic(created by the Lifestream, in FFVII world). What he can do? He can corrupt the Lifestream, and controll the magic that is used against him. If Sephiroth wasn't deffeated in the end of AC, he would have corrupted all the Lifestream without any problem, because the power of his will and his corrupted Lifestream was more powerfull than the pure one.
Except that A: Kefka DOES control the source of all magic (he does not have perfect control of it), and B: Sephiroth does NOT control the source of all magic (he controls part of the source, and there's NO reason to think he can restrict access to magic.)Quote:
Little scenario that help to understand what i'm saying:
Kefka: You cannot kill me, because i controll all magic in the world!
*Someone attack Kefka with a magic spell not related with the Godesses*
Kefka: Crap, i don't have controll over your magic!
Sephiroth: You cannot kill me, because i controll all magic in the world.
*Someone use a Materia to manipulate the pure Lifestream, creating magic, and attacking Sephiroth with it*
Sephiroth: Crap, i don't have controll over your magic... yet.
*Someone use a Materia to manipulate the Lifestream, creating magic, and attacking Sephiroth with it... But nothing happens*
Guy: Where is my magic?! Why nothing happened?!
Sephiroth: Because the part of the Lifestream that you was using to create magic, is already corrupted by me. Your magic now, is my magic.
Guy: Oh crap!
*Guy die*
Aerith only said "Come on guys, let's go!". It was collective souls of the dead who shoved the lifestream. She did cure Geostigma, but I think it was more the defeat of Sephiroth's will by Cloud that was responsible for the tainted stream purifying, since it began vanishing before Aerith did her thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by PuPu
She was puryfing him. She cannot do it instantlly, this is why he remained perfectly coherent during a little time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryushikaze
But he controlled the majority of it, and could EASILLY controll the rest by corrupting it.Quote:
Which he did not control all of.
Wrong. This "long and complex conversion process" was only necessary during the two years between FFVII and AC. In the end of AC, Sephiroth's corrupted Lifestream was so big, that he could use it to directly attack and corrupt the pure one.Quote:
And no. The corrupted lifestream was not tainting the untainted. Pure was turned into tainted by a long and complex conversion process (Geostigma), and it began purifying as soon as what was keeping it contaminated vanished. I'd say pure outpowered tainted.
The source of all magic in FFVII is the Lifestream. Sephiroth made it cover the entire sky with just a wave of his hand.Quote:
No. Sephiroth cannot. And if you wish to insist he can, PROVE IT.
I think that both Cloud and Aerith are equallly responsible for Sephiroth's dead in AC.Quote:
Aerith only said "Come on guys, let's go!". It was collective souls of the dead who shoved the lifestream. She did cure Geostigma, but I think it was more the defeat of Sephiroth's will by Cloud that was responsible for the tainted stream purifying, since it began vanishing before Aerith did her thing.
And PuPu, you are right, Sephiroth didn't controll all the Lifestream, but he controlled the majority of it, and could corrupt and controll the pure one, very easy.
When i say that Sephiroth controll all the Lifestream, i'm saying that he can controll all of it easilly. Even if he didn't controll the pure one in the end of the movie, he could corrupt it easilly, because in that time, his Lifestream was more big and powerfull than the original one.
Is like if Kefka didn't have controll over the Godesses, but have controll over a dark version of the Goddesses(with the same powers of the original ones), that could corrupt the "pure" Goddesses and controll them.
The topics that i didn't answered to you Ryushikaze, is because i think that you can be right about them.
So, your evidence for Aerith purifying Kadaj via the rain is a lack of any indication that he is being affected by it. RIIIIIGHT.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Crystal
Please, a source on "majority", and "Easily", si vous plait.Quote:
But he controlled the majority of it, and could EASILLY controll the rest by corrupting it.
Only, not. Because nothing in ANY Advent Children resource even HINTS that he can do this.Quote:
Wrong. This "long and complex conversion process" was only necessary during the two years between FFVII and AC. In the end of AC, Sephiroth's corrupted Lifestream was so big, that he could use it to directly attack and corrupt the pure one.
Which is decently impressive, but it hardly proves your original claim (And it was only about the scope of Migdar, not the 'entire sky'Quote:
The source of all magic in FFVII is the Lifestream. Sephiroth made it cover the entire sky with just a wave of his hand.
And with that, we are at somewhat of an impasse, since neither of us has evidence, but given I'm basically arguing the negative case and simple explanations, I think parsimony currently favors my analysis.Quote:
I think that both Cloud and Aerith are equallly responsible for Sephiroth's dead in AC.
See above on sourcing.Quote:
And PuPu, you are right, Sephiroth didn't controll all the Lifestream, but he controlled the majority of it, and could corrupt and controll the pure one, very easy.
Source? Numbers? ANYTHING other than unsubstantiated claim?Quote:
When i say that Sephiroth controll all the Lifestream, i'm saying that he can controll all of it easilly. Even if he didn't controll the pure one in the end of the movie, he could corrupt it easilly, because in that time, his Lifestream was more big and powerfull than the original one.
Yes, that is a decent analogy of your claim. Problem- It too does not substantiate said claim.Quote:
Is like if Kefka didn't have controll over the Godesses, but have controll over a dark version of the Goddesses(with the same powers of the original ones), that could corrupt the "pure" Goddesses and controll them.
Good to know.Quote:
The topics that i didn't answered to you Ryushikaze, is because i think that you can be right about them.
We know that the GG have the power to cure. But we know that Aerith's voice don't have any power. Her rain was falling over Kadaj's body(corrupted("sick") Lifestream). And now, you are saying that GG didn't was responsible for Kadaj's dead, but her voice(that we know don't have any special power) was?! This don't make any sense, and you know it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryushikaze
I'm just using logic. I heard that is said in the Reunion Files, that the "long and complex conversion process" was only necessary during the two years between FFVII and AC. In the end of AC, Sephiroth's corrupted Lifestream was so big, that he could use it to directly attack and corrupt the pure one.Quote:
Please, a source on "majority", and "Easily", si vous plait.
Now, by logic, what that means? That means that his Lifestream was more powerfull(big) than the original one and that he could corrupt the pure one easily(because of this power).
The fact is, Sephiroth's Lifestream was more powerfull than the original one. This is why the Reunion Files say that he is the most powerfull being in FFVII universe, because no one is more powerfull than the pure Lifestream in the FFVII Compilation, with exception of him.
Well, the movie hints. In the end of it, the tainted Lifestream begun to descend in form of "tentacles" to begun the process of destroying the world. In this moment, is very obvious that the tainted one became more powerful than the pure one, even because the pure one didn't try to stop the tainted one(like it did with meteor in the end of FFVII), because the pure one didn't have the power to do it.Quote:
Only, not. Because nothing in ANY Advent Children resource even HINTS that he can do this.
MANY people died by Geostigma during the two years between FFVII and AC, how you know that the tainted one was not big enough to cover the entire planet(considering that Sephiroth's plan was to destroy all of it)?Quote:
Which is decently impressive, but it hardly proves your original claim (And it was only about the scope of Migdar, not the 'entire sky'
And my original claim was that he could controll all the Lifestream if he wanted(by corrupting it), what is the truth.
You belive that Aerith's voice is more powerful than her Great Gospel! I'm sorry, but i don't think you are right.Quote:
And with that, we are at somewhat of an impasse, since neither of us has evidence, but given I'm basically arguing the negative case and simple explanations, I think parsimony currently favors my analysis.
I'm just using logic. I heard that is said in the Reunion Files, that the "long and complex conversion process" was only necessary during the two years between FFVII and AC. In the end of AC, Sephiroth's corrupted Lifestream was so big, that he could use it to directly attack and corrupt the pure one.Quote:
See above on sourcing.
Now, by logic, what that means? That means that his Lifestream was more powerfull(big) than the original one and that he could corrupt the pure one easily(because of this power).
Read what i writed in the topic above.Quote:
Source? Numbers? ANYTHING other than unsubstantiated claim?
Read my explanations above.Quote:
Yes, that is a decent analogy of your claim. Problem- It too does not substantiate said claim.
The fact is: The Lifestream is the source of all magic and power in FFVII universe, and Omega Weapon is capable of controlling all of it, meaning that OW is the god of FFVII. The Reunion Files said that Sephiroth is, and will ever be, the most powerfull being of FFVII world, meaning that he is more powerful than OW itself.
AC Sephiroth is more powerfull than the god of FFVII world!
BUT thinking well, in a fight, Sephiroth would lose to Kefka, because Sephiroth don't have controll over all magic yet, but Kefka have. And Sephiroth cannot controll Kefka's magic, because it don't have anything to do with the Lifestream.
Actually I agree with this, When she started talking he believed she was mother and for once in the movie he seemed happy or content, I think him going up was by his own choice because he wanted to be with mother, he finally found her so his mission was over.Quote:
Originally Posted by The CrystalWe know that the GG have the power to cure. But we know that Aerith's voice don't have any power. Her rain was falling over Kadaj's body(corrupted("sick") Lifestream). And now, you are saying that GG didn't was responsible for Kadaj's dead, but her voice(that we know don't have any special power) was?! This don't make any sense, and you know it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryushikaze