What World? There's no Timeline, shut up.

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Originally Posted by Hazzard

You're being a bit too harsh on the script writers, because most people and I would agree that they done exceptionally well, on games like; VII, VIII and X. The stories were well written in depth, and I completely understood everything that was happening, I don't exactly know where any holes were left undone in those games, and everything was usually explained. Maybe not entirely on VII, and maybe they did go a bit way wall on that game, but the others, tell me why then?

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PM me and we'll have this discussion cause I don't want to derail the thread. But the quick answer for the FFVII plot hole (one example at least) is play the part where Cloud remembers what really happened at Nibleheim then watch Last Order. You'll notice one very specific difference between the two with Last Order fixing a major issue people complain about in the plot...

Oddly enough I don't hate VIII and I've come to "terms" with VII but I feel both games major weaknesses come from bad writing.

Overall, I still stand by my feelings of Nojima and feel some of his FF stories arethe worst in the series. Don't get me started on his work in KH...

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What happen to that goal? Well it's out of the window, we might as well great a prequel to X. 'Everyone returns and they meet Cloud!'-- that crappy theory may even happen, you never know what Square are capable of...

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My feelings exactly;)

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BTW W.k, do you know who wrote the script for XII, cause they should of included more context, and trust me, that would of made it better to hear someone like Montblanc speak.

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The Tactics team worked on it, and though I agree FFXII's story is not their best I feel it's pretty good the way it is (my story complaints for XII are very different from most people) once again, PM me and we can discuss it in full. Though I agree that Montblanc should have had a voice...

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

Though VII and X are connected, it's interesting to note that it wasn't stated until after Sakaguchi left the company.

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When did Sakaguchi leave ?

I worked a lot with Ryu Kaze at Wikipedia, the guy who translated most of the interviews (Pmog at GAMEFAQ and some other guys did X2's interview also).

Ryu mentioned that the FFVII Ultimania had a reference to it, and that 2 or 3 game scenes had a reference to it too. I hope I can find the link or e-mail!

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Originally Posted by Renmiri

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

Though VII and X are connected, it's interesting to note that it wasn't stated until after Sakaguchi left the company.

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When did Sakaguchi leave ?

I worked a lot with Ryu Kaze at Wikipedia, the guy who translated most of the interviews (Pmog at GAMEFAQ and some other guys did X2's interview also).

Ryu mentioned that the FFVII Ultimania had a reference to it, and that 2 or 3 game scenes had a reference to it too. I hope I can find the link or e-mail!

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When was the Ultimania guide for VII written? As for the game sequences, if you're talking about the ones mentioned in the FFX-2:International/ Last Mission, I've already read them.

The last game Sakeguchi actually worked on for Square, was IX, he's an executive producer on X and KH1 but due to the failure of Spirits Within that nearly bankrupted the company; there was evidence he was "promoted" to the "window seat" (I think I got this term correctly, anyone know for sure?). Which is a position given to people in corporate Japan after they screw up.

It basically is a position that strips him of any real control or merit within the company, they are usually put in charge of "pet projects" the company creates to keep them occupied. It exist because it's it looks bad to fire prominent figures within the company. The creator of Metroid and the Gameboy faced a similiar fate after the disasterous "Virtual Gameboy" was released to failure. Notice that Sakeguchi has never really done an interview after FFIX? Most interviews of X generally feature Nojima, Kitase, and Nomura. It looks like he left in 2003, shortly after X-2 was released but wasn't this connection theory nonsense started with FFX-2: Last Mission/International position which was released later?

I haven't read much of the Ultimania guides, but I notice the few I have read never seem to feature him, (I've read parts of VII and X-2, mostly dealing with the connection theory.) Regardless, I can't see the man changing his mind on what he said about the creative challenges he created for himself after so many years. Ultimately, I don't believe Sakeguchi would have O.Ked it, it doesn't mean that it wasn't planned between Nojima and Kitase before hand and was just never officially mentioned until Sakeguchi left. Gawd now I'm sounding like a conspiracy theorist:rolleyes2...

His company, Mistwalker, was formed in 2004 but according to this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mistwalker the company was trademarked by him in 2001, which signifies he was probably going to leave the company soon.

Ultimately, I would like to remind everyone that the discussion (at this point) is whether Sakeguchi himself wanted VII and X be connected. I'm aware that no matter how much I bitch and moan, they are connected and I still stand by my feelings of this being a bad idea. I choose not to accept their connection cause I prefer thinking of the FF games as "independant universes" and the games themselves "the final fantasies of these respected worlds" which is why I don't count sequels, spin-offs, and prequels as canon. Just let me believe in my self induced delusions :rolleyes2

Okay?
Okay;)

I think that to secretly link them was a pretty bad idea, not to mention that it completely went against the ideals of Sakaguchi. Anyway, my opinion isn't that different from Wolf Kanno's so whatever, read his posts again :D

Ain't Wolfy the best. There was no need to PM him, because he would basically bring me up to date with everything...IN THE WORLD!!!!

I hate this link idea they had, and it sucks. I prefer to differ from thoughts about them being connected in any way, they just have one kid with a coincidence of having the same name, of one of the main guys in VII. End of.

Cheer up guys! Though I myself like the idea (sorry!) I can see monumental plot holes in it so I doubt it will ever fly.

As for Sakaguchi not ever changing his mind.... I myself admire a lot more people who are capable of evolving than people who stick with their first idea just out of stubbornness ;)

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

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Originally Posted by Hazzard

You're being a bit too harsh on the script writers, because most people and I would agree that they done exceptionally well, on games like; VII, VIII and X. The stories were well written in depth, and I completely understood everything that was happening, I don't exactly know where any holes were left undone in those games, and everything was usually explained. Maybe not entirely on VII, and maybe they did go a bit way wall on that game, but the others, tell me why then?

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PM me and we'll have this discussion cause I don't want to derail the thread. But the quick answer for the FFVII plot hole (one example at least) is play the part where Cloud remembers what really happened at Nibleheim then watch Last Order. You'll notice one very specific difference between the two with Last Order fixing a major issue people complain about in the plot...

Oddly enough I don't hate VIII and I've come to "terms" with VII but I feel both games major weaknesses come from bad writing.

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First, you're trying to take away Nojima's authority over his work because you personally don't like his stories. I have to say you can't even compare the story writing of the first 6 games with the stories he worked on. There was so much more emphasis put into it that is too obvious to deny. And most of the "plot holes" that you talk about are from cultural differences in interpretation when translating these games.

As far as FF's not being connected, does anyone have a source where Sakaguchi said his goal was to not connect any of the games? I remember him saying he wanted to start fresh every game but not saying that.

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Originally Posted by Renmiri

Cheer up guys! Though I myself like the idea (sorry!) I can see monumental plot holes in it so I doubt it will ever fly.

As for Sakaguchi not ever changing his mind.... I myself admire a lot more people who are capable of evolving than people who stick with their first idea just out of stubbornness ;)

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I like to think that he is continuely evolving by never really looking back. So many people get caught up in their first success that they live in it's shadow. Though Looking at the series as whole you get the feeling he's stilltrapped by his success, I like to believe that in his mind he doesn't really feel the pressure. You get the feeling from most of his interviews that he feels everyone of his games is a success to himself at least. I have to admire that.

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

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Originally Posted by Hazzard

You're being a bit too harsh on the script writers, because most people and I would agree that they done exceptionally well, on games like; VII, VIII and X. The stories were well written in depth, and I completely understood everything that was happening, I don't exactly know where any holes were left undone in those games, and everything was usually explained. Maybe not entirely on VII, and maybe they did go a bit way wall on that game, but the others, tell me why then?

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PM me and we'll have this discussion cause I don't want to derail the thread. But the quick answer for the FFVII plot hole (one example at least) is play the part where Cloud remembers what really happened at Nibleheim then watch Last Order. You'll notice one very specific difference between the two with Last Order fixing a major issue people complain about in the plot...

Oddly enough I don't hate VIII and I've come to "terms" with VII but I feel both games major weaknesses come from bad writing.

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First, you're trying to take away Nojima's authority over his work because you personally don't like his stories. I have to say you can't even compare the story writing of the first 6 games with the stories he worked on. There was so much more emphasis put into it that is too obvious to deny. And most of the "plot holes" that you talk about are from cultural differences in interpretation when translating these games.

As far as FF's not being connected, does anyone have a source where Sakaguchi said his goal was to not connect any of the games? I remember him saying he wanted to start fresh every game but not saying that.

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VI is easily as good as any of the later games. I still feel it's the best written within the main series. The early games were limited by technology and the fact that Square was breaking new ground in the territory of RPG innovations with many other companies. FFIII-V may not have very sophisticated stories or characters but when you really look at the stories and what they did within their time, they are truly amazing. Hell I still feel that IV has a well written cast of characters that easily chump anything the later games have thrown at me.

My problem with Nojima doing this is not just because I dislike him as a writer but also because FF (to me) belongs to Sakeguchi. If someone can post me an interview where Sakeguchi says "Connect these FF's together? Sounds good!" then I'll shut up. I just feel they are tarnishing another man's legacy.

What cultural differences within interpretation? Maybe for my complaint of Yuna (which I have never even mentioed on this thread but I know it's because of a cultural differnce that I dislike her:rolleyes2 ) VII has a few plot issues that piss me off and make me unable to see the game as really good. It's not a bad game but it's not anywhere close to perfect like people treat it as. VIII does a few things really well and a few things really bad... The plot just seems so disjointed, like they were using only a rough draft and never went back to smooth it out and make it more cohesive. X... I just dislike it. It was mostly predictable, most of the cast are cliche's and it was boring to watch. I felt like I was watching another "Hollywood Summer Blockbuster movie" it follows the formula for them to a tee. It tries to be intellectual but it's attempts are shallow at best, instead focusing on a predictable love story. Granted it's presented well, but I just felt it was average at best as RPGs go.

If the man has written anything well, it's KH1 and KH:CoM. Both are exceptional, especially CoM. But then KH2 is released and it destroys everything he did in the first two games. He built up all this expectations and not only does he fail to deliver he he royally blows it by removing every relevant element in the game and writing stupid plot twist for the sake of getting a cheap emotional stir from the player later. I have absolutely no interest in the series anymore...

I'm looking for an interview with him where he mentions why he doesn't make direct sequels.

no timeline....there are similar things used, such as chocobos, etc. aside from the obvious FF10 and FF10-2

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

VI is easily as good as any of the later games. I still feel it's the best written within the main series. The early games were limited by technology and the fact that Square was breaking new ground in the territory of RPG innovations with many other companies. FFIII-V may not have very sophisticated stories or characters but when you really look at the stories and what they did within their time, they are truly amazing. Hell I still feel that IV has a well written cast of characters that easily chump anything the later games have thrown at me.

My problem with Nojima doing this is not just because I dislike him as a writer but also because FF (to me) belongs to Sakeguchi. If someone can post me an interview where Sakeguchi says "Connect these FF's together? Sounds good!" then I'll shut up. I just feel they are tarnishing another man's legacy.

What cultural differences within interpretation? Maybe for my complaint of Yuna (which I have never even mentioed on this thread but I know it's because of a cultural differnce that I dislike her:rolleyes2 ) VII has a few plot issues that piss me off and make me unable to see the game as really good. It's not a bad game but it's not anywhere close to perfect like people treat it as. VIII does a few things really well and a few things really bad... The plot just seems so disjointed, like they were using only a rough draft and never went back to smooth it out and make it more cohesive. X... I just dislike it. It was mostly predictable, most of the cast are cliche's and it was boring to watch. I felt like I was watching another "Hollywood Summer Blockbuster movie" it follows the formula for them to a tee. It tries to be intellectual but it's attempts are shallow at best, instead focusing on a predictable love story. Granted it's presented well, but I just felt it was average at best as RPGs go.

If the man has written anything well, it's KH1 and KH:CoM. Both are exceptional, especially CoM. But then KH2 is released and it destroys everything he did in the first two games. He built up all this expectations and not only does he fail to deliver he he royally blows it by removing every relevant element in the game and writing stupid plot twist for the sake of getting a cheap emotional stir from the player later. I have absolutely no interest in the series anymore...

I'm looking for an interview with him where he mentions why he doesn't make direct sequels.

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No one disagrees that for their time, the first 6 games were pretty great. In fact, i would have to say personally i feel it would've been impossible to give them sophisticated storylines.

It doesn't change the fact that they could've been written by an 8-year-old.

Im also sure no one would disagree that FF is Sakaguchi's series, but VII+X are Nojima's games moreso than Sakaguchi's. The series as a whole is hardly one man's idea, as IX is the only one he's been really involved on since V (which, ironically, is the game that most and firstly gave support to the same universe theory(IX that is, not V)).

I'd also like to note that you give absolutely no examples of the bad story writing you seem to dislike so much. In fact, you have possibly the most vague reasons for not liking them

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(on VII) It's not a bad game but it's not anywhere close to perfect like people treat it as. VIII does a few things really well and a few things really bad...

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I have news for you - that applies to every game in the series.

It's sad to see the FF community is still to this day divided between those who like VII and those who don't - for no reason other than it's more popular than VI. Almost every thread is rooted in it, and this timeline thread is no exception.

I didn't go into detail because the thread is about a "timeline scenario" not "What asinine things WK thinks about?". My last post has already detracted far enough from the original point of the thread and I'm trying not to derail this thread anymore than I already have. Besides, who honestly here even gives a damn about my opinion? ;)

Lighten up and stop taking this so personally and I'll do the same.:p

VII and VIII are much of Sakeguchi's games as they are Nojima's as there is evidence he worked intimately with these games.VII's original storyline was written by Sakeguchi and Nomura, and Sakaguchi is said to be the one in charge of pushing the visual effects of VIII. IX is most likely the last game he really worked on so I give X and X-2 to be Nojima's. He was intimately involved with VII but perhaps not VIII.

Honestly, I'm wondering why people even want the games to be connected? It seems pointless to me in the long run.

P.S. If you really want to listen to my opinions of the series overall, we can find a better place to discuss it;)

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Originally Posted by Mercen-X

Also, heya, if Squee made a game that anyone would recognize as being a summary of the events of all games Final Fantasy (of course, knowing Squee, it'd be done properly with new faces, new tech, and no character references except maybe a Sid), would you bother playing it?

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Just a reminder, this was an added topic.

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Originally Posted by Hazzard

Also, about this whole 'X--VII, they're related', I swear; if they use someone like that little kid in X-2 (worst game ever) then that's hardly a valid reason. His name may of been Shinra, but that doesn't send any signals to me that the two games are set in the same world. Should they start saying that Biggs and Wedge have been set in the same world?

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I doubt Biggs, Wedge, or Shinra would have anything to do with the connection. It's mostly the idea of Spira developing space travel and the relation between Fayth and Mako. Hell, Jenova herself could have simply been an ugly-ass Aeon gone wrong like Sin. Not saying I grant any merit to the idea, but you've gotta give benefit of the doubt to those who have entertained us with at least a handful of entertaining games.

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

No one disagrees that for their time, the first 6 games were pretty great. It doesn't change the fact that they could've been written by an 8-year-old.

It's sad to see the FF community is still to this day divided between those who like VII and those who don't - for no reason other than it's more popular than VI. Almost every thread is rooted in it, and this timeline thread is no exception.

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Caesar's thumb is pointed . . . skyward.

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

I didn't go into detail because the thread is about a "timeline scenario" not "What asinine things WK thinks about?"

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Thank you.

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Honestly, I'm wondering why people even want the games to be connected? It seems pointless to me in the long run.

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What is your view? Do you see Final Fantasy from the Gamer's Point of View?
Or do you see the world of Final Fantasy through the perspective of one who plays a crucial role in its story?

I think the people who dislike the idea are that way because they either think it goes against the Sakeguchi plan or the plotholes make it seem ridiculous.
I think the people who are for it are because they feel themselves to be as much a part of these worlds as Cloud or Shadow or Zidane. With the main story out of the way, what's to become of the world and its characters?
You fear the games will be ruined, they fear the story will end. Get it?

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Originally Posted by Mercen-X

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Honestly, I'm wondering why people even want the games to be connected? It seems pointless to me in the long run.

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What is your view? Do you see Final Fantasy from the Gamer's Point of View?
Or do you see the world of Final Fantasy through the perspective of one who plays a crucial role in its story?

I think the people who dislike the idea are that way because they either think it goes against the Sakeguchi plan or the plotholes make it seem ridiculous.
I think the people who are for it are because they feel themselves to be as much a part of these worlds as Cloud or Shadow or Zidane. With the main story out of the way, what's to become of the world and its characters?
You fear the games will be ruined, they fear the story will end. Get it?

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I think that's a pretty accurate summary. For me personally. I like to think that each game is "the final fantasy" of these respective worlds. By that, I I feel they are all stand alone stories. Many of the games really had nothing left to say. Look at X-2 and Advent Children. Neither tell anything that really helps their original stories. X-2 has the ending that fans whined about after finishing FFX, but Advent Children or any of it's spinoffs seem to actually add anything. I feel both projects were created in order to milk popular games, not because they had anything relevant to say.

I really do feel that X-2 ruined the good qualities of FFX's story; while the FFVII project has been nothing more than a waste of time in terms of building on the world and characters. Of anything, Last Order seems to have been created to finally explain some issues people had with the story so perhaps it isn't a total waste.

I feel this connection theory is really not adding anything to either game involved. All it really seems to be doing (IMHO) is making raving fans have a warm tingling feeling to know that their Lulu/Vincent fanfic is actually plausible and to create an opportunity to create countless sequels and prequels that will be scrutinized by fans for generation over every little detail including the plot holes they will be having to explain.

I feel the fans need to learn to let go. Lightening rarely strikes twice and it's better to just leave these games alone rather than have to suffer through Hollywood style "get rich quick" sequels that just tarnish the original. I don't feel any game in the series really needed a sequel, and I can easily resist the temptation of needing a prequel cause most of the games explain it well enough.

I don't like the idea that FFXIV-XVIII could be devoted to nothing but the story of how FFX and FFVII are connected. I always liked how each FF was mostly different from each other, with completely different worlds, characters, stories, and game mechanics. There was a mythology it had to follow but if you really think about it, the mythology leaves a lot of room for interpretation and creativity. It was never really strict "chocobos, Cid, Airships, certain music tracks". Now I have to deal with spheres, materia, Lifestream, zombies, I have to listen to them come up with good explanantions as to why death works differently in both worlds. And the real bitch is, I just know they are going to half ass explain this with a "they're different planets".

Face it people... (SPOILER)Dalmasca was restored, Tidus is dead, Zidane got the girl, Squall finally opened up, Sephiroth is dead, Magic is gone, Bartz didn't win any of the girls, Cecil and Rosa lived happily ever after, balance was restored, Leon is an ass and will always be an ass, and the original Light Warriors are trapped in a time loop;) . I don't feel anything is left to be said about their worlds and these characters.

P.S. Bolivar, I'm still looking for that quote.

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

X-2 has the ending that fans whined about after finishing FFX. If anything, Last Order seems to have been created to finally explain some issues people had with the story so perhaps it isn't a total waste.
I don't feel any game in the series really needed a sequel, and I can easily resist the temptation of needing a prequel cause most of the games explain it well enough.

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Agreed. Agreed.
Yeah, but anyway, I'm more a fan of game prequels than any sequels myself. I've always wondered why more games don't extend into the past rather than into the future.

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Face it people... the original Light Warriors are trapped in a time loop.

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There's one I don't like. I think the idea of a timeloop is just a ridiculous cop-out. The creators of the first game couldn't think of where the Light Warriors really came from and then couldn't think of a real ending, so they're in a timeloop. Niiice.

Its been proven that 7 and 10 are connected, just very distantly. So... I don't know, there might be some kind of timeline, but it'd all be speculation.