Maechen and the black mage dressphere (possible spoilers)

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Originally Posted by Little Blue

Though I would like to challenge that an unsent dream citizen would disappear with the rest of the city. I don't believe they would, and would exist like normal unsents, entities derived purely by pyreflies based on the soul that permeated them in life. Consider that Tidus' Mother is seen in the Farplane, implying that after death, the pyreflies themselves can persist an entity (as an unsent or as a farplane apparition) and no longer need the summoning to keep them together, and we do hear from (SPOILER)Jecht in the final battles of X-2, after the dream had ended, who was a dream citizen.

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I believe that in the first game, Pyreflies were termed to be "reactionary" as opposed to having their own entities. Yuna said to Tidus that one can see his mother, because of his memories, not because she was real or any other reason.

I, for the most part, agree with the rest of your points.

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Originally Posted by Renmiri

That is true, we hear (SPOILER)Auron and Braska too but the battle in question takes place on the Farplane where likely the rules are more lax about unsent ?

We do know that Maechen can teleport inside Leblanc's Chatteau and the Celsius so he is no regular unsent either.

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Maechen was probably invited, if not at the Chateau, then definitely on the Airship. No one seemed to be all that shocked when they ran into him, showing some form of foreknowledge of Maechen's presence without something out of the ordinary. Or it's one big plothole, as fills the entirety of FFX-2.

By definition, an unsent is someone who has neither gone to the Farplane, nor accepted their death (IE, they had something left to do). Once you get to the Farplane, it doesn't matter WHO you are, you are no longer an Unsent. Maechen and Auron both fulfill this criteria. As such, there's no such thing as an Unsent in the Farplane. The whole definition is based on an exclusionary theory. You can only be one and not the other. Yuna has memories of Auron, Jecht, and Braska, alllowing them to speak.

There's no real, concrete reason to believe that either one could teleport through walls, unless you gain experience for being unsent. Considering that Shuyin and Maechen are of similar time periods, it's not impossible. Also Pyreflies seems to be able to permeate anything.

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Originally Posted by Renmiri

Auron never teleported himself, not even when Yuna was in danger and Tidus and Kimahri tried to put down a door on a temple. I think it is safe to assume he just couldn't go through walls/teleport.

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Or he's a jerk and just didn't damn well feel like it.

Renmiri, I think you're separating your FFX and FFX-2 knowledge bases too far. Your SCVs aren't in your Marines' Bunker ranges! You'll get ganked by a bunch of Mutalisks, or get Lurker/Reaver dropped!

Maechen is the person in the black mage sphere. I was playing with my cousin once, and we were confused as well, and we reaserched both X and X-2 for info on him. Here is what we found.

In X, on the Mihen highroad, Maechen explains that he travels around Spira, learning of it's history. He then confesses that he forgets most of it, and can't even remember how old he is. This is very important.

Next is the image of Zanarkand that Seymour shows the party. This is an image of the real Zanarkand, and we used it for comparative visual purposes.

On to the evidence in X-2

First is the actual sphere. The speaker (Maechen) exclaims "how wonderful it was to shake her hand like that." Maechen being the forgetful person he is, later forgets everything from the sphere.

Later, when Maechen shakes Yuna's hand during chapter 1, it sparks this old, forgotten memory of his encounter with Lenne.

Later still, during chapter three, Maechen finds Yuna in Leblanc's chateu, having finally connected his forgotten memories. However, he loses the connection right before saying it.

Finally, the sight of Zanarkand and the connections that he had begun to make allow Maechen to realise that he is unsent, and he showa Yuna before sending himself.

This is how myself and my cousin pieced everything together. , Maechen was a black mage in the city of Zanarkand. Before the war started, he saw a concert of Lenne, and shook hands with her after. He recorded the s handshake sparked the memory of the handshake.

Next is how the black mage sphere got onto gagazet's peak. When Yu-Yevon realized that Zanarkand was going to be destroyed, he commanded everyone in the city to go to the summit of Gagazet, where Fayth scar was formed to create DZ. But Maechen was not sealed into the scar, so he left the recording he made and begun to travel Spira. Over time, he died, but he forgot both the fact that he was dead, and every spell he knew as a blackmage.

That is pretty much what we pieced together. The only plothole that we see is why Maechen in particular was not sealed in fayth scar with the other people of Zanarkand.

Also, the city in the black mage sphere lookes line DZ is because the city in the sphere is Zanarkand, and DZ is the memories of the people in Fayth scar of the real Zanarkand.

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Originally Posted by Tavrobel

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Originally Posted by Little Blue

Though I would like to challenge that an unsent dream citizen would disappear with the rest of the city. I don't believe they would, and would exist like normal unsents, entities derived purely by pyreflies based on the soul that permeated them in life. Consider that Tidus' Mother is seen in the Farplane, implying that after death, the pyreflies themselves can persist an entity (as an unsent or as a farplane apparition) and no longer need the summoning to keep them together, and we do hear from (SPOILER)Jecht in the final battles of X-2, after the dream had ended, who was a dream citizen.

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I believe that in the first game, Pyreflies were termed to be "reactionary" as opposed to having their own entities. Yuna said to Tidus that one can see his mother, because of his memories, not because she was real or any other reason.

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Bugger, how silly of me to forget to include that part. Of course pyreflies are reactionary. Though it is not as simple as remembering a person, it needs to be remembering a person who has died and went to the farplane. The pyreflies that existed within that person, real or aeon, likely develop an imprint of their host, and this is what helps define their afterlife. If they end up on the farplane, then someone entering the farplane and thinking of them, encourages the associate pyreflies to gather and form an apparition. Perhaps its some kind of resonant effect by thinking of someone. the visitors own pyreflies calling for the those of someone they used to know and the deceased's pyreflies, or those nearby at least, manifesting in front of them?

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Originally Posted by Tavrobel

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Originally Posted by Renmiri

That is true, we hear (SPOILER)Auron and Braska too but the battle in question takes place on the Farplane where likely the rules are more lax about unsent ?

We do know that Maechen can teleport inside Leblanc's Chatteau and the Celsius so he is no regular unsent either.

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By definition, an unsent is someone who has neither gone to the Farplane, nor accepted their death (IE, they had something left to do). Once you get to the Farplane, it doesn't matter WHO you are, you are no longer an Unsent. Maechen and Auron both fulfill this criteria. As such, there's no such thing as an Unsent in the Farplane. The whole definition is based on an exclusionary theory. You can only be one and not the other. Yuna has memories of Auron, Jecht, and Braska, alllowing them to speak.

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This is however not the standard farplane manifestation if we consider the apparitions that appear near the Guado entrance to be standard. Though perhaps that can be accounted for if we consider that massive lecture Yuna stiring a ton of memories or her latent summoner skills somehow playing a part. That or conclude that perhaps pyreflies can form cognisant entities in the Farplane or blame X-2 for stupidity.

However, there is precidence for unsents existing on the Farplane. Consider Shuyin, or, perhaps more credibly, Jyscal, an unsent who leaves the farplane, though for a very short time.

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Originally Posted by qwertyxsora

Next is how the black mage sphere got onto gagazet's peak. When Yu-Yevon realized that Zanarkand was going to be destroyed, he commanded everyone in the city to go to the summit of Gagazet, where Fayth scar was formed to create DZ. But Maechen was not sealed into the scar, so he left the recording he made and begun to travel Spira. Over time, he died, but he forgot both the fact that he was dead, and every spell he knew as a blackmage.

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heh, I find this a bit hard to believe, but then there really is no explanation as to why that sphere got there. I havemy own theories, but they're so ludicrous that they's suitable only for poorly written fanfics :p

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Originally Posted by qwertyxsora

That is pretty much what we pieced together. The only plothole that we see is why Maechen in particular was not sealed in fayth scar with the other people of Zanarkand.

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Was he still alive when the fayth were made? It is known that there was a final battle against Bevelle on the Calm Lands. Even though he was old, he was a mage, and could've fought, ultimately dying and becoming an unsent. That's my theory at least.

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Originally Posted by qwertyxsora

Also, the city in the black mage sphere lookes line DZ is because the city in the sphere is Zanarkand, and DZ is the memories of the people in Fayth scar of the real Zanarkand.

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Perhaps the difference between Seymour's recreation and the Black Mage sphere is different district / time of day / unnecessary glorification of the recreation...

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Originally Posted by Little Blue

If they end up on the farplane, then someone entering the farplane and thinking of them, encourages the associate pyreflies to gather and form an apparition. Perhaps its some kind of resonant effect by thinking of someone. the visitors own pyreflies calling for the those of someone they used to know and the deceased's pyreflies, or those nearby at least, manifesting in front of them?

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It wouldn't be inconsistent, certainly.

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Originally Posted by Little Blue

That or conclude that perhaps pyreflies can form cognisant entities in the Farplane or blame X-2 for stupidity.

However, there is precidence for unsents existing on the Farplane. Consider Shuyin, or, perhaps more credibly, Jyscal, an unsent who leaves the farplane, though for a very short time.

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I prefer that we blame the game for stupidity.

Jyscal was sent, was he not? But as he still had something to do, he was (with great effort), able to leave for approximately five minutes. Notice the effect he had on other unsents, namely Auron. It's clear that the Farplane was trying to bring him back within an AoE. Shuyin is one of those weird Unsents, though. I would still prefer to blame X-2 for stupidity.

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Originally Posted by qwertyxsora

Next is how the black mage sphere got onto gagazet's peak. When Yu-Yevon realized that Zanarkand was going to be destroyed, he commanded everyone in the city to go to the summit of Gagazet, where Fayth scar was formed to create DZ. But Maechen was not sealed into the scar, so he left the recording he made and begun to travel Spira. Over time, he died, but he forgot both the fact that he was dead, and every spell he knew as a blackmage.

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Or they were horribly scattered throughout Spira by the Spherimorph, or they could have been lost, or they could have been brought there through natural means. We don't know the topography of Spira as it was 1000 years ago. The mountains could have formed in that time.

Imagine the One Ring. From 3441 SA to 3019 TA, it went from Mordor, to Minas Anor, to the Fields of Gladden. From there, it escaped, went into the river, and was picked up by Gollum, who moved into the Ered Mithrin. It escaped once again, and went to the Shire. Then it went back to Orodruin, and died. Yes, died. There's no reason a similar journey could not have taken place for the sphere.

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Originally Posted by Little Blue

Was he still alive when the fayth were made? It is known that there was a final battle against Bevelle on the Calm Lands. Even though he was old, he was a mage, and could've fought, ultimately dying and becoming an unsent. That's my theory at least.

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The Calm Lands is only used for the Final Aeon fights. In context of the war, the game makes it seem as though Bevelle was pushing on Zanarkand and broke the city defenses (Gagazet). There's no reason for Zanarkand to leave the safety of their mountains.

In the final battle, I believe that they only used summoners, their last resort. He seems to have no knowledge of the act of summoning itself, even if he knows what it is. He could have been killed as a citizen, or in a previous battle, but I doubt this.

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Originally Posted by Little Blue

Perhaps the difference between Seymour's recreation and the Black Mage sphere is different district / time of day / unnecessary glorification of the recreation...

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Seymour explicitly said that it was a recreation, not a representation.

But Zanarkand was also huge. Imagine New York city. Diversity + space + time. Tidus seemed to be shocked by it, but I'm not sure whether or not he actually thought he was there again (he's come up with stupider theories, such as travel through time), or because Seymour was hitting on Yuna.

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Originally Posted by Tavrobel

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Originally Posted by Little Blue

Was he still alive when the fayth were made? It is known that there was a final battle against Bevelle on the Calm Lands. Even though he was old, he was a mage, and could've fought, ultimately dying and becoming an unsent. That's my theory at least.

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The Calm Lands is only used for the Final Aeon fights. In context of the war, the game makes it seem as though Bevelle was pushing on Zanarkand and broke the city defenses (Gagazet). There's no reason for Zanarkand to leave the safety of their mountains.

In the final battle, I believe that they only used summoners, their last resort. He seems to have no knowledge of the act of summoning itself, even if he knows what it is. He could have been killed as a citizen, or in a previous battle, but I doubt this.

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Actually, one of Maechen's lectures, specifically the one when you first arrive on the Calm Lands states that it was a battlefield in the war. However, there is no mention that it was the final battlefield of the war, perhaps my own ideas have got the better of me. It should be noted though that it appears as though Bevelle never actually breached the city, or never got passed the Fayth on Gagazet, or in fact even reached the Fayth in the final campaign of the war, for that was when Sin first appeared, according to Maechen again.

It could easily be suggested that Maechen died in Zanarkand when Sin attacked. A straggler who didn't make it to the mountain in time to become a fayth, someone who refused to be a fayth, or perhaps unsuitable. Who knows?

The first game states (or is easily inferred) that the Calm Lands were there for the sake of fights with FAs.

Whatever the real reason, I still claim plothole.

No, it says that summoners used it for their fight with Sin because it was deserted and not likely to get anyone killed as collateral damage.

But there are large ruins there and it would make a lot of sense for Zanarkand to hold the Bevelle troops there.

maechaens dead meaning he could go from 1000 years ago to now and i noticed the same thing when i did new game plus after shaking his hand the first game the voice in the sphere sounds like him so maechaen is definetly the one in the sphere