Best Motivation?

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Originally Posted by Goldenboko

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

Sure some of the other villains have more "fun" motives but "fun" and "good" are two different things. Kefka and Ex-Death are more symbolic as villains rather than having good motives but it explains why these two are definetly the most evil of the batch.

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Kefka did get a reason more then just "Hey I'm crazy for no reason." Kefka was the first to undergo the Magic Infusement, shattering his mind, causing him to go insane.

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Its a good origin for his insanity but its not really a motive if you think about it. He never uses it as a reason for why he does it what he does, though logically it may indeed be implied due to its nature.

I think it comes down to interpretation of "Best Motive" I feel it implies a good reason for doing what they did, and regretfully, though I feel Kefka is a wonderful villain, he only does what he does for personal amusement. He enjoys watching others suffer. Technically, Kefka has no real motive, he didn't even really strive to be a god like other villains did, it just fell into his lap. The other villains had goals, though many were pretty silly, I feel only the three I mentioned had compelling goals that made them unique villains and antagonists.

Despite that, I would say only Kuja of the three is actually a good villain. Vayne is arrogant but his goals are somewhat noble if a little self serving in their execution. Xande is just a coward. Kuja has a sympathetic motive but his personality and actions still make him a top class villain despite sympathetic intentions. This is where Kefka and Ex-Death come in. Their origins are strange and perhaps not explained clearly but lord knows they are top class villains in my book. Their origin explains why they are the way they are but they do not define themselves by it, like Sephiroth or Zemus did. Rather its in their symbolic nature that these two remain so enduring as villains. :)

i never understood Seymour's motives and it seemed that they were just forcing to hard for him to be bad, i think the game would have had more depth if he weren't bad. it seemed they wanted a big reason for yuna not to marry him to push the Yuna/Tidus stuff. i don't rate X to be honest and i feel sorry for seymour he could have been so much better if they didn't force him as a bady so hard

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Originally Posted by Goldenboko

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

Sure some of the other villains have more "fun" motives but "fun" and "good" are two different things. Kefka and Ex-Death are more symbolic as villains rather than having good motives but it explains why these two are definetly the most evil of the batch.

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Kefka did get a reason more then just "Hey I'm crazy for no reason." Kefka was the first to undergo the Magic Infusement, shattering his mind, causing him to go insane.

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The fact that he chose to do the expermental magic infusements had his sanity in question WAY before we see him in game.

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

Technically, Kefka has no real motive, he didn't even really strive to be a god like other villains did, it just fell into his lap. The other villains had goals, though many were pretty silly, I feel only the three I mentioned had compelling goals that made them unique villains and antagonists.

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There is no reason behind everything kefka did but one thing that gives the glimmer of him actually having a plan is the sole fact that.

1.) He was not a general, he was not some high up there guy, he was the court mage but he was basically treated as if he was the higher ranks.

2.) After you see him complaining in Figaro about having all the jobs in the middle of no where, you start to see him actually having more of a say. Doma, GENERAL Leo is able to give him command. It would normally be completely irrational for a general to give a court mage command UNLESS Kefka was working his way up.

The fact that he basically goes from complaining about being in a stink pit desert and that Ghestal always gave him these jobs to having enough followers to smash up thamasa and kill Leo shows that at some point he gained alot more power military wise.

He obviously ended up second hand to ghestal who had been looking for the goddess statues for a very long time. It would be insulting to assume that Kefka didn't know about these statues.

So.. yeah just as the game progresses, it goes from him having not to much power to being the left hand of Ghestal then taking the goddess statues for himself to gain ultimate power.

Saddly since Kefka didn't have a MASS amount of info on his background we can only really go off what is said and done in game.

I think him rising to the top in the empire is more than apparent, seeing as the empire was after power, I could only imagine he was too since he was the only one who managed to take it.

Also, like I said before.

HE -HATES- HUMANITY. It's not stated til the end but even before he gains the ultimate power, when Celes stabs him he sees blood then is SHOCKED to see blood as if he himself were not human and surprised to see this. He never had any empathy towards humans -at all- clearly he killed everyone in doma for the hell of it. Until the end, you find out it's not really because it was "fun" or "funny" or "for his entertainment" it's because he -hates- humans and everything they have to live for, so there is no reason why he SHOULDN'T kill everyone.

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Celes: Power only breeds war... I wish I'd never been born.
Kefka: Ouch!!
Kefka: B... Blood!?
Kefka: You... vicious brat! Grrr... Aargh... I hate hate hate hate hate
hate... hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate HATE YOU!
Grrr...

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That's when he snaps and goes to the goddess statues.

And OBVIOUSLY he knows enough about them to know that they absorb other magic, which Ghestal did not know. So due to the fact he knew more about these statues than the person who originally wanted them did, it's only reasonable to say he -wanted- to have their power.

After reading Squall_of_SeeD's analysis, I think that Ultimecia have a good motivation too:

GameFAQs: Final Fantasy VIII (PS) Time/Ultimecia Plot FAQ by Sir Bahamut

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Originally Posted by The Crystal

Kefka had the best motivation. He did it for the lulz.

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Originally Posted by Relapse

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Originally Posted by The Crystal

Kefka had the best motivation. He did it for the lulz.

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I'm starting to think that I need to write a long analysis about Kefka showing that he did not infact do it just for the lulz.

"Mommy, what did you do when I was in your tummy?"
"I played alot of WoW and did a psychological evaluation on mommy's favorite video game character of all time."

The more I think about Emperor Palamecia's sheer lack of lengthy and convoluted motivation, the cooler his motivation becomes.

He just owned everything. All of existence. Any notion otherwise only amused or mildly offended him. He wasn't out to conquest the world. In his mind, it was already his... And the rebelion was just a bunch of weeds on his lawn. He couldn't even go to Hell without totally owning it. He was just pious beyond all piety.

Every other villain in the franchise has suffered to some extent. Not Palamecia. Subjugating everything was what he did best, and he was totally in his element the entire time. While I can't necessarily make a case for his motication being the "best", it is certainly more unique than it appears and is reinforced by his amusingly arrogant dialogue.

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Originally Posted by Avarice-ness

The fact that he chose to do the experimental magic infusements had his sanity in question WAY before we see him in game.

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I agree but we can speculate many things about him. I personally feel Kefka was an asshole before the experiment but that's just me. ;)

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There is no reason behind everything kefka did but one thing that gives the glimmer of him actually having a plan is the sole fact that.

1.) He was not a general, he was not some high up there guy, he was the court mage but he was basically treated as if he was the higher ranks.

2.) After you see him complaining in Figaro about having all the jobs in the middle of no where, you start to see him actually having more of a say. Doma, GENERAL Leo is able to give him command. It would normally be completely irrational for a general to give a court mage command UNLESS Kefka was working his way up.

The fact that he basically goes from complaining about being in a stink pit desert and that Ghestal always gave him these jobs to having enough followers to smash up Thamasa and kill Leo shows that at some point he gained alot more power military wise.

He obviously ended up second hand to Ghestal who had been looking for the goddess statues for a very long time. It would be insulting to assume that Kefka didn't know about these statues.

So.. yeah just as the game progresses, it goes from him having not to much power to being the left hand of Ghestal then taking the goddess statues for himself to gain ultimate power.

Sadly since Kefka didn't have a MASS amount of info on his background we can only really go off what is said and done in game.

I think him rising to the top in the empire is more than apparent, seeing as the empire was after power, I could only imagine he was too since he was the only one who managed to take it.

Also, like I said before.

HE -HATES- HUMANITY. It's not stated til the end but even before he gains the ultimate power, when Celes stabs him he sees blood then is SHOCKED to see blood as if he himself were not human and surprised to see this. He never had any empathy towards humans -at all- clearly he killed everyone in Doma for the hell of it. Until the end, you find out it's not really because it was "fun" or "funny" or "for his entertainment" it's because he -hates- humans and everything they have to live for, so there is no reason why he SHOULDN'T kill everyone.

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Celes: Power only breeds war... I wish I'd never been born.
Kefka: Ouch!!
Kefka: B... Blood!?
Kefka: You... vicious brat! Grrr... Aargh... I hate hate hate hate hate
hate... hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate HATE YOU!
Grrr...

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That's when he snaps and goes to the goddess statues.

And OBVIOUSLY he knows enough about them to know that they absorb other magic, which Ghestal did not know. So due to the fact he knew more about these statues than the person who originally wanted them did, it's only reasonable to say he -wanted- to have their power.

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I never had the impression that Kefka was "rising through the ranks" I always felt it was pretty apparent he's the Emperor's right hand man from the get go as he's connected to not only pivotal missions but most of the Empire's "dirty work" that more respectable Imperial generals wouldn't dare touch (Leo and Celes).

I never stated he didn't know about the statues but until the Emperor turned on him, Kefka seemed pretty content to play second fiddle to the Emperor. It wasn't until the Emperor tried to kill him and he accidentally stumbled upon the true nature of the statues did Kefka slay his master and took the opportunity to become a god.

Even with all this, I never said Kefka was a terrible villain just that he really never had a goal outside of spreading suffering and misery to all life. Other villains were trying to achieve some goal, even if it was just trying to become a god. Kefka never really strived to be a god, his only motivation is to cause as much suffering as he possibly could. He didn't work towards being a god like Ex-Death or Sephiroth did nor did he have some compelling personal goal like Kuja, Zemus, Ultemacia, or Vayne. He's just a narcissistic sociopath hell bent on wiping out everything.

I feel these points make Kefka a compelling villain cause he's more honest and pure than other villains. He has no vendetta, no utilitarian motive, he's barely fighting for personal gain. I'm not saying Kefka isn't power hungry or a shrewd tactician, those are the traits that allow him to be a god for nearly a year. Its just that he's pretty much insane and strives to make others suffer cause he considers everything worthless in comparison to himself. At the same time, I don't consider him to have a real motive outside of insanity. The GBA translation paints Kefka as an arrogant sociopath who feels everyone is beneath him and he is truly superior. He never really said he hated humanity, he just thinks he's better than them. In his mind, he was a god before he ever took the power of the statues and destroyed the world. So what if a few people die and suffer. They are worthless compared to him, he thought. No more than livestock waiting to be exploited and culled. He holds this mindset for most of the game until the end of the game where his statements paint him as a nihilist who sees no point in life itself. But this is why he's my favorite villain in the series. He's incredibly simple and complex at the same time. :cool:

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Originally Posted by Obsidian

The more I think about Emperor Palamecia's sheer lack of lengthy and convoluted motivation, the cooler his motivation becomes.

He just owned everything. All of existence. Any notion otherwise only amused or mildly offended him. He wasn't out to conquest the world. In his mind, it was already his... And the rebelion was just a bunch of weeds on his lawn. He couldn't even go to Hell without totally owning it. He was just pious beyond all piety.

Every other villain in the franchise has suffered to some extent. Not Palamecia. Subjugating everything was what he did best, and he was totally in his element the entire time. While I can't necessarily make a case for his motication being the "best", it is certainly more unique than it appears and is reinforced by his amusingly arrogant dialogue.

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You just perfectly nailed why I like the bastard so much, and far better than I could have. :D Sheer, unmitigated, mind-numbing arrogance; backed with enough power to make it stick.

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

I never had the impression that Kefka was "rising through the ranks" I always felt it was pretty apparent he's the Emperor's right hand man from the get go as he's connected to not only pivotal missions but most of the Empire's "dirty work" that more respectable Imperial generals wouldn't dare touch (Leo and Celes).

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Everything other than this I agree.

Actually, Celes burnt down Miranda, doesn't give the reason but I'm sure it'd be close to why Kefka tried to burn down south figaro.
I'd imagine Celes was ordered to burn down Miranda were as Kefka was prolly just told to get the info and do what ever, and what ever tends to lead to burning things down.

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

He never really said he hated humanity, he just thinks he's better than them. In his mind, he was a god before he ever took the power of the statues and destroyed the world. So what if a few people die and suffer. They are worthless compared to him, he thought. No more than livestock waiting to be exploited and culled. He holds this mindset for most of the game until the end of the game where his statements paint him as a nihilist who sees no point in life itself. But this is why he's my favorite villain in the series. He's incredibly simple and complex at the same time.

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I take

Kefka: I will destroy everything... I will create a monument to
non-existence!
Life will go on! There will always be people, and dreams!
Kefka: No! I will hunt them down. I will destroy it all! Destroy! Destroy!
Destroy!!
We will not allow you to harm another living thing.
Kefka: Hee, hee, hee!! But what fun is destruction if no "precious" lives
are lost?
It's over, Kefka!

Kefka: Life... dreams... hope... Where'd they come from? And where are
they headed? These things... I am going to destroy!

As "I HATE HUMANS AND EVERYTHING THEY ARE AND DO" which then translates to "I HATE ALL OF HUMANITY"

Granted though, I'm not a fan of the GBA translations on Kefka's part. He does say things like "You are nothing more than fleas on the bottom of my boots now" and what not.

Script wise though, the GBA Kefka is the Kefka that I feel has no actual motivation other than "Well. They're lower than me and anything lower than me gets smashed!" where as the SNES translations Kefka seems more like "They're humans, they're not going to serve any purpose, they're entire existance is pointless because it accomplishes nothing"
Which he actually says that their existance is pointless in SNES.

Also, if he did infact understand he's human then his claim for a monument to non-existance would make sense because basically he's talking about the ENTIRE PLANET and EVERYTHING on it not existing, including him and the goddess statues. The SNES version just makes him seem like he's doing it to essentially speed up the process of life and bring the literal end of the world, a place where nothing exists because... well because humans caused it to be so.
GBA version makes him just want to take over the world and then when he still has people who are going to fight him that's when his entire motivation comes in for killing people.

GBA: Kefka: Bleh! You people make me sick! You sound like lines from a self-help
book!
Kefka: If that's how it's going to be... I'll snuff them all out! Every last
one of your sickening, happy little reasons for living!
Party: No, Kefka, stop!

^in GBA script, his reasons for shining the light of judgement are because they challenged him and disagree'd with his authority (by saying every "something" they found in the world), and he states it as so.

SNES: Kefka: This is sickening... You sound like chapters from a self-help
booklet! Prepare yourselves!
Kefka: Now, for my next trick, I will make you all... disappear!
Kefka, you don't know what you're doing! Stop!

^SNES script, his reasons for shining the light of judgement seems preplanned because it was his "next trick".


I personally like the human hating nihilistic kefka than the narcissistic kefka.

I know you don't care for the GBA script (I adore it myself :love:) but I honestly feel the only real difference in either translation is clarity of the characters themselves. I honestly feel Kefka is a smug narcissistic sociopath in the SNES translation but of anything, its bogged down by a bad translation that makes Kefka more comical than threatening. Even in the lines you quoted, I don't see Kefka really making a statement of hating humanity as much as revealing he doesn't care about their existence (sociopathic tendency).

I stated before that Kefka reveals more of a nihilistic view of humanity by end game (same in the SNES) so your statement of the difference between both versions of him is moot cause your judging one by his end game persona and the other by his opening persona but at the end of the day they are basically the same person. I feel the only real difference between the two versions is that one translation makes Kefka laughable and the other makes him seem more like an evil twisted human being from the get go. It's all about interpretation and somehow, I just don't think either of us are going to ever see eye to eye on this subject...

xD Prolly not.

But that's the wonder of the SNES games and earlier. Due to lack of background in most older games, interpretation are almost needed to understand a character on the personal level.

Maybe that's why I don't like the older games as much, they tend to always have so much background info that really, you know enough about them to not have to figure out why the way they are.

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Originally Posted by Obsidian

The more I think about Emperor Palamecia's sheer lack of lengthy and convoluted motivation, the cooler his motivation becomes.

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What was his motivation again? Because that was always vague to me.

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Originally Posted by Nagumo

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Originally Posted by Obsidian

The more I think about Emperor Palamecia's sheer lack of lengthy and convoluted motivation, the cooler his motivation becomes.

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What was his motivation again? Because that was always vague to me.

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To own the hell out of everything.

He is basicly a one-man example of organizations that aim only to twist the world and make it feed their lust for power, feeding whatever lies and raising whatever demons it needs to accomplish this. FF games have become famous for their commentary on powerful organizations and governments, but Palamecia by himself is probably their most pure and obvious example of this. I would probably compare him to the unreformed Catholic church.

During his ending speech all post-NES versions he condemns humanity for "false justice" and "forsaken love", yet he deceives people multiple times throughout the story. He boasts to his followers that the Empire is good for the world and that there is only bloodshed because the Rebellion exists. Does his actually care that humans are liars and cheats and that he is exactly the same in that respect? No. Does he himself actually believe that the Empire will save lives? Probably, but only to an egotistical extent. But does he actually care about human lives? Not in the slightest; they are like beetles on a sidewalk to a first grader.

He doesn't just crave power. Power is all that he knows and cares about, so any shreds of morality he ever had probably exist as jokes in the back of his mind. I know that it is so un-cool to have a villain that is sheerly a power monger, but Palamecia is such a raw and vile example of what it means to be such a character.

someone please refresh my memory-what were exdeaths motives again?