Sequels and Innovations

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

Its why I don't mind the remakes and ports so much but lately it seems its all they do. I guess I'm annoyed cause Square dominated my gaming life for the SNES and PS1 generations. We saw alot of really solid games, innovation, and generally creativity. This all disappeared in the PS2 era where SE's fell back on rehashing, remaking or generally whoring out the main FF series. There were some solid games in this whole mess but in the PS1 generation, I fell in love with most of SE's non-FF titles.

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I think we can blame the general financial position Square was left in after The Spirits Within for them falling back on remakes and whoring the FF series. I mean, I understand they were in a tough spot financially, and I even encouraged some of what they were doing to help them get back on their feet so they could start taking some risks every now and then. I just expected them to start taking risks sooner. I suppose they kind of are now with new titles like The Last Remnant, but it's just not enough, and I agree with you that it isn't as awesome as some of what they did in the SNES and PSX days. Maybe it's just that they need someone other than Nomura and Kitase to step up and make an awesome game that nobody saw coming and snaps them out of this rut for a bit.

:Dlol:D. They need me.:cool:

I liked Ehrgeiz. Kanno, I'm not surprised most of your friends didn't like it, I seem to recall you saying how "most of your friends" didn't like FFVII either, so what's the story?

I think Ehrgeiz gets hated on for much of the same reason why FFVII spinoffs get hated on in the present-day - it's carried out mostly by people who have a problem with FFVII being so popular to begin with.

The combos were simple, the 3d movement not as good as it could have been, but i had a good time playing it and so did my gamer friends, even one who was a "true-FF" and a real fighter-connoisseur like so many trendy-game-bashers on this site claim to be.

Ergheiz did not have the development time nor the funding to be a well-received game.

I think it is interesting that these types of games were tried by Squaresoft in the past because it is rarer to see that type of innovation and risk-taking from Square Enix these days; however, we have made some progress: The World Ends With You and Last Remnant are two Square Enix games without a series label.

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

I think Ehrgeiz gets hated on for much of the same reason why FFVII spinoffs get hated on in the present-day - it's carried out mostly by people who have a problem with FFVII being so popular to begin with.

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This argument doesn't hold much weight with me. Most people who tried it, myself included, probably tried it because they liked FFVII and it was a Square game featuring some of the characters from it. Even if people who hated FFVII played it and didn't like it though, I doubt it had anything to do with them hating FFVII. The game sucked on it's own, it didn't need the help of fanboy angst to make people hate it.

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

The combos were simple, the 3d movement not as good as it could have been, but i had a good time playing it and so did my gamer friends, even one who was a "true-FF" and a real fighter-connoisseur like so many trendy-game-bashers on this site claim to be.

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There's no accounting for taste. If this friend of yours is the fighter connoisseur you claim then he'd be the only fighting game fan I've ever heard of liking the game. I won't deny that the game could have been good with more development time, as there have been other fighting games like it that managed to be awesome. The lack of depth, crappy controls, and boring character design made it pretty fantabulously awful though if you ask me (and most people who played it).

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Originally Posted by Vivi22

I think we can blame the general financial position Square was left in after The Spirits Within for them falling back on remakes and whoring the FF series. I mean, I understand they were in a tough spot financially, and I even encouraged some of what they were doing to help them get back on their feet so they could start taking some risks every now and then. I just expected them to start taking risks sooner. I suppose they kind of are now with new titles like The Last Remnant, but it's just not enough, and I agree with you that it isn't as awesome as some of what they did in the SNES and PSX days. Maybe it's just that they need someone other than Nomura and Kitase to step up and make an awesome game that nobody saw coming and snaps them out of this rut for a bit.

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I concur actually, and I mostly agree that SE just didn't bounce back as much as I had hoped they would have. Granted the PS2 era had alot of issues itself. I'm certain if Sony had supported their online better, we may have seen FMO at least. We also saw alot of new genres take hold. The RPG fad of the PS1 generation was over by then. I just wish they would hire someone else to write for them :mad:

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

I liked Ehrgeiz. Kanno, I'm not surprised most of your friends didn't like it, I seem to recall you saying how "most of your friends" didn't like FFVII either, so what's the story?

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I never said my friends hated Ehrgeiz Bolivar, most of my friends don't play fighting games like I do. I'll be honest and say that Ehrgeiz can be fun, but its a terrible fighting game. Powerstone took the concept later and made it work a little but I've always had issues with 3D fighters cause they lack speed. Most feel too slow for my taste.

Yes, my friends and I didn't care for VII. One of them considers the game to be the weakest in the franchise, another felt it was ok but he genuinely feels the whole FF series is overrated and mediocre. I was disappointed cause I came into the game with too high of expectations. I consider myself a reformed "hater" cause I feel the game is good (though its not because of story or characters mind you) but it hardly deserves the praise it gets in my book but this is my opinion and I know nothing will change. I dislike the Compilation cause it is poorly done from an artistic and story point of view.

My dislike of VII stems more from the obnoxious fans than the game itself. Until I came to this forum, I never met a VII fan who could give logical and plausible reasons for liking the game and why one should consider it great. I've met perhaps three on this forums including yourself that can hold your own beliefs with sound intelligence, yet it still doesn't change the fact that I really deep down feel it was a mediocre game. I honestly feel the game's only worthwhile revolution to the series was the introduction of the run button. :cool:

Edit: If you really want to discuss my problems with VII that led me to dislike it. PM me and I'll explain. I don't want to derail the thread anymore than I have.

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I think Ehrgeiz gets hated on for much of the same reason why FFVII spinoffs get hated on in the present-day - it's carried out mostly by people who have a problem with FFVII being so popular to begin with.

The combos were simple, the 3d movement not as good as it could have been, but i had a good time playing it and so did my gamer friends, even one who was a "true-FF" and a real fighter-connoisseur like so many trendy-game-bashers on this site claim to be.

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No, I actually feel it was just a poor fighter. I actually liked the idea of playing as VII characters (Zack player actually :p ) and it really doesn't bother me. Its not as bad as Tobal which is downright unplayable but its not so great that people should fawn over it as a great triumph either.

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Originally Posted by Roogle

Ergheiz did not have the development time nor the funding to be a well-received game.

I think it is interesting that these types of games were tried by Squaresoft in the past because it is rarer to see that type of innovation and risk-taking from Square Enix these days; however, we have made some progress: The World Ends With You and Last Remnant are two Square Enix games without a series label.

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I'm still not sold on Last Remnant but I'm just not as easily impressed as I once was. But I agree that SE has been doing rather remarkable lately and though I don't care for the sequels and spin-offs, they have had the wonderful benefit of allowing SE to try new game styles which is good. At this point I don't feel its completely SE's fault and more of the jaded industry to be honest. Though I feel SE's reliance on spin-offs, sequels, remakes, and ports, though financially beneficial, has done much to tarnish the company's image in the eyes of the gaming community in recent years.

I was more interested in Last Remnant when it didn't just look like Final Fantasy with more party members.

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

Its not as bad as Tobal which is downright unplayable but its not so great that people should fawn :p over it as a great triumph either. ;)

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Anyway, just in case anyone got the impression, I didn't mean to imply that Ehrgeiz was any kind of masterful achievement. I admit Bushido Blade rocked 50kx* harder but that doesn't change the fact that Ehrgeiz was a move in a different direction with decent ideas which I personally feel deserve to be revisited. I'll admit I'm mostly obsessed with the characters and want to see them fleshed out more (to the point where I've actually been writing my own f-fic about it) but I could care less if they erased the VII characters from the roster. The dungeon mode was interesting enough for me, I was just disappointed that the end-game sequence was a reader instead of a movie like the actual in-game tournament. Although... was it just my copy or was it intended that Dasher Inoba's end movie... never end? By the way... I HATE Dasher Inoba. I just find him annoying for some reason.

*pronounced "fifty-thousand times"

Back on topic, I just realized another game I want to see expanded upon. Many people were disappointed by the sequel to Brave Fencer Musashi, but I actually own and continue to play Musashi Samurai Warrior. I just think that some of the more interesting ideas need to be drawn from the two and if there is going to be any voice-acting... for God's sake hire someone who can act! Or have a mode to deactivate the voices without affecting the other sound effects. There are a lot of things that are dis/likable about MSW. My main props would go to the ability system... that's also my main problem. Some of the creatures you learn from are simple and some require some stupid trick that you need the mind of geek and the patience of a saint to achieve and for what? Sometimes you get an attack that's either somewhat better than the others you've collected or one that looks exactly the same as some others you've collected. Despite the fact that you may be hoping to get one of the more awesome techniques you see your enemy fronting. yay...

Aside from that MSW still makes me want to play the original and I still would like to see another installment.

I'm not accusing you of thinking its a masterpiece Mercen-X though there are some who do consider it pretty elite.

As for Musashi, I never got a chance to play MSW except for a demo which was ok. I didn't care for the serious tone but I know better than to judge a game squarely on the demo. BFM on the other hand is a game a I adore. Yeah it has some problems but for Square's first attempt at a 3D platformer, it was decent and the humor was awesome.

I liked Threads of Fate too and also thought that it deserved a sequel. I think there's a Parasite EVe sequel in the works I think this is a picture of it. They could also start a whole new series, but I think that's what The Last Remnant is supposed to be.
http://image.com.com/gamespot/images...4_thumb001.jpg

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Originally Posted by Depression Moon

I liked Threads of Fate too and also thought that it deserved a sequel. I think there's a Parasite EVe sequel in the works I think this is a picture of it. They could also start a whole new series, but I think that's what The Last Remnant is supposed to be.
http://image.com.com/gamespot/images...4_thumb001.jpg

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The Parasite Eve sequel intrigues me but like many of the projects SE has been doing lately(FFT:WotL, CC, Agito, etc...); I wish it was on a console rather than a portable system. I think CC would have been a better game had it been built for a console rather than the PSP.

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Originally Posted by Vivi22

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

I think Ehrgeiz gets hated on for much of the same reason why FFVII spinoffs get hated on in the present-day - it's carried out mostly by people who have a problem with FFVII being so popular to begin with.

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This argument doesn't hold much weight with me. Most people who tried it, myself included, probably tried it because they liked FFVII and it was a Square game featuring some of the characters from it. Even if people who hated FFVII played it and didn't like it though, I doubt it had anything to do with them hating FFVII. The game sucked on it's own, it didn't need the help of fanboy angst to make people hate it.

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Keyword, chief:

"mostly"

Interestingly enough, I have never met a single person in real life who ever had a problem with the compilation or the individual works themselves. It's all been on here, on the internet. And if you want, we can go through the threads that rate these games, and I almost guarantee you, most of the negative reviews will be from the usual suspects of haters. Hell, I can tell you with almost 100% certainty the CC thread carried out in this fashion.

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Until I came to this forum, I never met a VII fan who could give logical and plausible reasons for liking the game and why one should consider it great.

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That's exactly your problem - if you're expecting everyone to have logical, rational arguments for liking something, you're going to miss what appreciation is about to begin with. It comes from feeling, the senses, not an observational, data-gathering period followed by a thought process culminating in a thesis, or something like that. I remember a friend of mine holding me accountable because I couldn't come up with a reason off the top of my head for "why" I liked Super Smash Bros. I realized later that it doesn't matter "why" I like SSB, all that matters is that I do, and quite frankly, the "why" is none of his damn business to begin with!

Sorry for derailing your thread. But this is relevant to the Ehrgeiz discussion. Smacking someone around with the Masamune, then sliding out of their way before they can get back at you is just plain fun. I have two middle fingers for anyone who has a problem with that.

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

Interestingly enough, I have never met a single person in real life who ever had a problem with the compilation or the individual works themselves. It's all been on here, on the internet. And if you want, we can go through the threads that rate these games, and I almost guarantee you, most of the negative reviews will be from the usual suspects of haters. Hell, I can tell you with almost 100% certainty the CC thread carried out in this fashion.

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Its odd you say that as though only haters live on the internet... I don't know about the people you hang around with but where I live, I have maybe one friend who can honestly say he's a VII fan and thinks its the greatest FF. Course he's only played VII and X. Most VII lovers I meet have always been people who have never played an RPG before it, and have only played the PS1 generation and up (and they all say the FF series was never as good as VII). In fact, until I came to the internet, I never met a VII fan that has experience past that game alone. Its a two way street my friend :p

As for the CC comment. It reminds me of a Penny Arcade strip,
Penny Arcade! - Consider The Source

I personally feel you need to see both sides of it. AC was okay, CC was ok and I actually really enjoyed Last Order, which frankly had some retcons and continuity errors that I felt were necessary to fix issues I had with the plot personally. Yet I see people and reviewers treating the Compilation of VII as if it were the Second Coming of Christ. Story is subjective but I find many people including those who say CC is damn near perfect agreeing with me on the faults of the game.

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Until I came to this forum, I never met a VII fan who could give logical and plausible reasons for liking the game and why one should consider it great.

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That's exactly your problem - if you're expecting everyone to have logical, rational arguments for liking something, you're going to miss what appreciation is about to begin with. It comes from feeling, the senses, not an observational, data-gathering period followed by a thought process culminating in a thesis, or something like that. I remember a friend of mine holding me accountable because I couldn't come up with a reason off the top of my head for "why" I liked Super Smash Bros. I realized later that it doesn't matter "why" I like SSB, all that matters is that I do, and quite frankly, the "why" is none of his damn business to begin with!

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This coming from a guy who challenged fanboys for a thorough explanation as to how someone can relate and feel the cast of FFVI is deep and emotional ;)

Actually Bolivar, you would have a very different opinion of me if you just asked the right question. Don't ask me if I liked it cause I will analyze and deconstruct it. If you just asked me if I had fun you would get a surprising answer most of the time. Erhgeiz and CC, did I like them? Not really for various reasons and flaws. Did I have fun playing them? Yes :eek: (astonishing I know)

If you notice, I rarely call people on liking a game cause its fun; except on the occasion they sound like something is uber awesome cause it was designed perfectly (like I thought in this thread). If you say its fun that is fine. When you start telling me that it was a deep and wonderful experience cause of (insert over-embellished reason involving either game system, characters, or plot ) and if I disagree with them, I call them on it, I feel that if you give a logical and moving reason you should be able to somewhat explain it. When it comes to mechanics, I do judge it logically but its because its plausible as their really is no way to compare systems with just a "fun factor" cause fun is subjective. You can't really say FFII is less fun than DQV cause that's completely subjective, if they try to explain it through mechanics or perception of story and they can't back it up, I feel you have some faulty reasoning.

I believe that if you like something you should be able to back it up, as to why. I don't really feel its unreasonable and if you don't want to answer you don't have to but don't ever think that makes me obligated to respect your opinion. Besides, in-depth analysis and intellectual conversation concerning different opinions on a subject expands our knowledge and allows us to learn and grow. Despite what you think, I have learned to look at VII more favorably in recent years and I attribute part of it to your personal in-depth analysis on it.

Story is also subjective which is why I have tried my best to never chastise someone for liking a game for its plot, I might tease but I would never come out and say "you are smurfing moron cause that story was terrible!". The thing is, My hobby is writing and thus I look at story differently than some. Bad writing bother me to no end and I'm sorry if a series you like happens to have a lot of it imo. I'm generally surprised you don't notice it yourself at times or that your willing to accept it.

I understand that games can be good cause they are just "fun". I like Rhythm games and Mega Man titles for crying out loud and lets face it, fun factor is all they really have going for them though I could explain mechanics. If you make a statement from an artistic point of view, I feel its fair game to be challenged and discussed. As I've grown older, I see games more from the artistic perspective nowadays, and looking at it as an art form I feel it needs to grow. This is why I am very analytical about it cause I want it to move in the right direction. :cool:

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Smacking someone around with the Masamune, then sliding out of their way before they can get back at you is just plain fun. I have two middle fingers for anyone who has a problem with that.

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*smacks you with Excalibur* That's what I have to say! Bring it on :p

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

Despite what you think, I have learned to look at VII more favorably in recent years and I attribute part of it to your personal in-depth analysis on it.

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Awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww, isn't that all warm and fuzzy! Seriously, though, I would agree that we've covered alot of good ground on a couple of the games and it's helped me gain a better appreciation.

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Its odd you say that as though only haters live on the internet... I don't know about the people you hang around with but where I live, I have maybe one friend who can honestly say he's a VII fan and thinks its the greatest FF. Course he's only played VII and X. Most VII lovers I meet have always been people who have never played an RPG before it, and have only played the PS1 generation and up (and they all say the FF series was never as good as VII). In fact, until I came to the internet, I never met a VII fan that has experience past that game alone. Its a two way street my friend :p

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I'm not quite sure where to go with this one. I want to call BS, not just because this is the internet, but due to your self-admitted desire to create disagreement - even when its fake. But I'll believe you, the only thing I can say is I feel sorry you came up around such a shallow group of people.

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

Yet I see people and reviewers treating the Compilation of VII as if it were the Second Coming of Christ.

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I don't know about that one.

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

This coming from a guy who challenged fanboys for a thorough explanation as to how someone can relate and feel the cast of FFVI is deep and emotional ;)

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I only asked for it because FFVI internet-fanboys are always going around bashing VII for "logical" reasons, and propping up VI with the same appeal to "critical reasoning". It is constantly put forth that VI is "deep". I was only asking "what is deep about the game"? If they didn't go down the route, I wouldn't have to expose them for it.

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If you just asked me if I had fun you would get a surprising answer most of the time. Erhgeiz and CC, did I like them? Not really for various reasons and flaws. Did I have fun playing them? Yes :eek: (astonishing I know)

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Woah, woah, woah. It's astonishing because you just said, in the simplest terms possible, that you do not like games you have fun with. Does your two-way lesson apply here also? Do you like games you don't have fun playing? It's astonishing because it's either self-defeating logic, or just plain weird...

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

You can't really say FFII is less fun than DQV cause that's completely subjective, if they try to explain it through mechanics or perception of story and they can't back it up, I feel you have some faulty reasoning.

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Yes, actually you can say FFII is less fun than DQV, not sure what the problem is there. If someone wants to cite that as to why they feel the game is better, hell, I'd place alot more credibility on that than the absurd, emotional, extreme, problematic "critical reasoning" that gets brought up in so many threads here.

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Bad writing bother me to no end and I'm sorry if a series you like happens to have a lot of it imo. I'm generally surprised you don't notice it yourself at times or that your willing to accept it.

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1) "Bad writing bother me to no end" is ironic.

2) They're video games! If I want good writing, I pick up Goethe, Garcia-Marquez, Steinbeck, Puzo, Tolstoy! If I want to zone out and play a video game that's going to bring me into a story using visuals and music, I'll pick up my beloved FFX. Chea!

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If you make a statement from an artistic point of view, I feel its fair game to be challenged and discussed.

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"Rationality has made man more savage than any beast."

Nah, I agree with you, it's good to discuss things, it helps us clarify our thoughts better, and it does advance the sake of appreciation. But there's a limit. And at that limit, people begin using emotionally-loaded terms, self-defeating logic, in order to insult people and their beliefs. And that's not cool.

PLEASE DESIST IN THIS SQUABBLE. If you want to argue on how games can be good or fun then bring back to PM or Profile Comments. PLEASE...