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Go read up on the FFXIII demo. Toriyama mentions all the things that will be different later. Demos are just trying to show off the game. Obviously they put Rinoa in the demo because there was a lot of hype around her and people wanted to play her in the demo. However, that was a PR stunt, and not representative of the game.
I take it that you didn`t read my previous posts. Particularly one of my posts deverifies your assumption as to why they have put Rinoa in the game. I`ll recap here: not all of the Trial versions have Rinoa in them. Putting Rinoa in the demo based on your assumption seems unlikely. Another agruement would be that if they indeed have put Rinoa in some of the versions because there were hype around her, but then why did they put Quistis in them as well? Also consider the clothes change on them ...Quote:
Originally Posted by champagne supernova
I`ll elaborate on this matter from a different perspective. So, regarding the hype about her, that`s not true. Anyway, I`ve been there and as far as I recall, there wasn't much hype about her. But, more to the point; consider how did the developers acknowledge such hype surrendering around Rinoa existed? It`s not like the developers went to listen fans at very early stage and have decided to put Rinoa in the demo just because the fans hoped to play her. That's too unrealistic and costly.
And as for FFXIII demo, consider that the timespan between FFVIII and FFXIII is so large that everything have changed a lot. Also consider that the early Trial versions are different (the existence of Rinoa) than the newer ones (no Rinoa). So your example (Toriyama) doesn't seem to be likely in this case because they already have changed something in the final release anyway.
They did show off the game. They advertised it. However, you cannot agrue that early Trials, latest demos and the final release are almost the same. The only things that are changed in some of the versions are: Rinoa, Selphie, Quistis and the clothes on SeeD, etc.
Your argument is basically saying that a first draft of something is more canon than the final version. That is a ridiculous proposition. Yes, it would be interesting to see how the game evolved during development, but the final product is the canon version.
This doesn't mean that they did change anything. It's probably most likely that they had finished all of the development of the Rinoa model, but not for Selphie. Therefore it was easier for them to chuck Rinoa for the earlier demos, and replace her with Selphie when they had developed her model.
But even if the developers did change their mind about Rinoa's character, that is their rght. It is the final product which matters, not what they did beforehand. I am not going to believe that the storyline of a first draft of a novel is more correct than the final, published draft.
It would be interesting to see how they developed the story in Final Fantasy, but the developers chose to have a certain story when they released it. Any storyline which was scrapped during development is exactly that - a scrapped storyline.
Basically, it would be interesting to see the development of the story in VIII. However, nothing in the initial storylines has any impact on the final storyline, and is therefore non-canon.
No, I was not suggesting that the original script may be more canonical than the final release. What in the world makes you think that? I`ve taken a look at my posts just now and I feel that none of them seem to indicate that this may be the case. So, do you mind to clarify? By the way, it would be mind boggling for me if this was the case.
Do we agree with the assumption that the story and certain elements of Final Fantasy VIII are somehow lacking? Such as subtle, unclear, debatable information, open to interpretation, etc. I am not implying anything that is bad, and I personally think that the developers have done a good job with this game. Final Fantasy VIII is no doubt unique when the other Final Fantasy games come into play. This assumption is exactly the origin of this thread.
To add additional reasoning behind my thread, I am simply interested in the ways how the developers have decided to implement [name insert here] and changes into the final version and the reasons behind thier actions. The findings we have discovered so far from the early Trial versions seems to show that such findings indeed came from the very original script. Therefore, this gives us the idea to think about the comparisons between the early versions and the final release. Some of these elements may be plot related, some not. In other words, more clues about the final release ...
Actually, the original script does bring some impact on the final release. These impacts are just minors. By minors, I mean non-plot related ones.
EDIT
I have ... extraordinarily ... discovered something.
I was checking out some of the FMVs in my secret folder and came across this unusual finding. I have converted them into animations, so here goes:
http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/7128/trial.gif http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/2444/finalmsw.gif
Look at each animation carefully. Notice something? No? Look at the shadows of Selphie and Rinoa (on the ground). The shadow is exact the same, which is Rinoa! If you look hard enough, the shadow of Zell from the Trial version is the same as the one in the Final version as well.
SquareSoft did not replace Rinoa with Selphie 100%
This is evidence that SquareSoft have made a mistake. Therefore, it`s POSSIBLE that they made another similar mistake at the end; Ultimecia saying SEED six times in a row (directed at Rinoa). Or not ... But remember that the dollet mission was for SEED, so if Rinoa was not ACTUALLY a SEED in the original script, it wouldn`t make sense! Unless they added the SEED concept AFTER the exact timeline of this Trial version ... But I somehow doubt it because when making a game, you HAVE to complete the script (it`s sorta like a plan) and convert that script into the game. Because if you don't complete the whole script and all of sudden you just program to make a game, wouldn`t that cause more errors and mistakes than expected? I think so.
So... Why did they change this particular finding? That would be awesome to find out why. Clues hmm.
So... the Do-A-Tour-With-Me situtation (Rinoa and Selphie asking Squall to take a tour at the BG at different interval), that I am still not sure yet. Was that strange? It is either that SquareSoft repeated the same version for Selphie for... unknown reason, or something. I`ll say more about this one later.
I am hoping to find more stuff about the Rinoa = Selphie theory. ;)
That is frightening.
So it's S=R now?
or the person making the FMV in the final version was lazy and just cut a corner by not making Selphie a new shadow that shows up for less than 10 seconds.
Rinoa is in the trial version because she is in the logo of FFVIII. If she was not in the demo somewhere, then many fans of the series would be pressuring Square for more info or another demo, which would not be desirable for making a game at all.
In some sense, yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Demon Dude
Whoever did that also did the same thing to Zell. I wouldn`t call it lazy, but rather something (e.g. the shadows) they have forgotten to change.Quote:
Originally Posted by John Woo
I doubt it. Before the trial version came out, I clearly remember from reading the PS magazine that it has had provided a list of characters who will be included in Final Fantasy VIII, whom of them were also Selphie, Quistis and Irvine. So, in your case, the fans would be asking for more information about these particular characters as well. Those characters didn`t show up in either Trial / Demo versions, except that Quistis showed up in the Demo version.Quote:
Originally Posted by John Woo
And remember that the Trial version and the Demo version are both different. The demo version is exactly the same one you saw from the Final release (the retail version); they just copied the re-edited dollet mission from the Final version as a part of the demo. It`s either that or they have changed the models before working on the Final release. Thus everything is almost the same between those versions. On the other hand, the Trial version just came out way before the demo version, it can be only played on PC, not PS. It`s the only version that contains the original models.
Just a little insight:
When you render out something, you render it out in different passes (beauty, specular, shadow, zDepth, etc.) and then you composite it in another program (like After Affects, Shake, etc.).
It could very well be that they just cut corners by not having to re-render the shadow passes, considering that it's such a short clip and no where near noticable in the game.
This doesn't mean SquareSoft were lazy or they forgot about it, the most likely case is they were strapped for time and/or it wasn't in the budget to re-render out one small and insignificant shadow pass.
I have replied to you in one of the other threads regarding this problem. I`ll re-cap; if SquareSoft had not enough time to add changes (or rather fix bugs), then why did they bother to take the time to change the way how Rinoa expressed at the end of the game? The copying-and pasting-and-do-re-modification-on-her-face-and-body process does TAKE longer than simply doing a single change. Remember that this is just informal talk so that other people reading this thread can understand what I mean.Quote:
Originally Posted by Omecle
The models changes (replacing Rinoa with Selphie, a Solider on the top of the ship with Quistis, the clothes on the rest of the team, etc) were in the budget of SquareSoft or thier plan. All of that is re-modification, therefore it would be logical if they replace the shadows with new ones since they are part of the re-modification as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Omecle
Yes, it`s true that the shadows are hard to tell since you can only see them for like 5 seconds. So, consider that when you have a new script on your hand, you then analyse the whole Trial version and see what needs to be changed according to that script on your hand. You then write down what things are requested to be change and you give that list to the responsible developers. It`s very possible that you will miss the shadows part since they are very easy to miss, therefore you didn`t write that part down. So, they either missed that part or just forgotten about it. Trust me on this one, it doesn`t take THAT long to change the shadow setting and the re-rendering process doesn`t take that long either (assuming that they have had high-tech computers at the time.)
I'm sorry there's nothing more I can help you with, you are obviously trying to look into this far too much as if it actually matters.
There could be a large number of reasons why they didn't bother changing the shadow pass. We'll never know, and therefore why should we even care? It doesn't mean anything.
In reference to you referencing me in the other thread: You just proved you know absolutely nothing about that subject, so you should really just stop basing any sort of theories on it. Please, just stop it.
Btw. At the time the programs back there weren't as user friendly or easy to just "re-render" a pass. Especially when it comes to shadows (go on, try making a complex scene and render out high quality ray-tracing shadows, and tell me how long it takes you even on today's computers).
What`s wrong with that? It`s fun discussing about it. If it`s bothering you so much, then don`t post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Omecle
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omecle
I do care. In relevance, it`s not just the shadow part but also many other things.
Actually, I do know about it. I`ve done a few complex video projects for my college.Quote:
Originally Posted by Omecle
Of course not, the programs back then weren`t as user friendly as today`s. However, you did not realise that companies usually provide training lessons for those who don`t know how to use the specific programs. SquareSoft is a rich company, it wouldn`t be a problem for them to hire the teachers for the programs lessons. So, the developers with the right training lessons, they could overcome the user-friendly problems that the programs have had. Not to mention all of the developers worked cooperatively if such problems have occured, which gave them another advantage as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Omecle
Also, remember that they have used the same program for Final Fantasy VII. Obviously, they used the program on FF7 first and then FF8. Assuming that this is the case, there`s a good chance that the developers have gained larger experience from playing around with FF7. It probably have made them feel a bit more comfortable when starting with FF8 because they already have that experience.
And as for the shadow re-render process, it still doesn`t take that long. It`s not like the re-rendering process will be complete in a matter of days and days. Usually a few hours or less, assuming that SquareSoft have had high-tech computers at the time.
FF VIII was the first FF game (and Square game to my knowledge) that used motion capture for the Full motion videos. So actually the developers were playing with something that is new to them.
Yes, but what I meant is that Final Fantasy VII was the first game for them to develop in both 2D and 3D. They have gained that experience and then they used it to develop the next final fantasy game (VIII). To make things easier because of the experience.
Hey,
http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/7128/trial.gif
http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/4955/finaljvb.gif
Look carefully! Again, SquareSoft didn`t replace the model of Rinoa with Selphie as well as Zell`s normal clothes. Yet, they have changed the clothes of Squall ... ?
I`ll make a new thread about this since it`s about Squall and Zell.