FFX's Antagonist

In what universe were either Shuyin or Seymour sympathetic? Seymour had no personality. Period. There was no way to be sympathetic because no matter how tragic his past history, he inspired as much empathy as a brick. And Shuyin was not even meant to be sympathetic. He had no depth to his character at all. The game says so. Everything he once felt was gone. He was two-dimensional, and was supposed to be that way. That's fine. It worked for X-2. I liked the game and I even liked Shuyin. But he was not a deep character.

Kefka was far more in-depth than Shuyin. I'm not going to give a fifteen paragraph post praising the depth of his character, but there are plenty of fans out there who will. Go ahead, pop into the FFVI forum and complain about his depth.


Also, I feel that you should stop bringing the other FF games into this. This question is about who should serve as the villain from X. No matter what your views on Kefka, FFVI didn't have the variety that X and X-2 give us to pick and choose. Kefka was pretty much the only one who could be the villain for that game. On the other hand, just because we were forced to choose Kefka for VI doesn't mean we should have to pick two dimensional "I be evil" villains for all the other games, especially when there are better options to be had.

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In what universe were either Shuyin or Seymour sympathetic? Seymour had no personality. Period. There was no way to be sympathetic because no matter how tragic his past history, he inspired as much empathy as a brick.

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Well I guess the creators just included the scene of Seymour crying and his mother dying for the lulz.

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And Shuyin was not even meant to be sympathetic. He had no depth to his character at all. The game says so. Everything he once felt was gone. He was two-dimensional, and was supposed to be that way. That's fine. It worked for X-2. I liked the game and I even liked Shuyin. But he was not a deep character.

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What the Fayth say of Shuyin contradicts the entire ending of the game. First Yuna posing as Lenne convinces him to stop. Then the real Lenne makes him stop. If all he was was a shadow composed of hate and anger, I don't think love would win the day....and yet it did.

2 seconds of baby Seymour crying didn't make me feel a thing for Seymour. Especially since you get no real connection between baby Seymour and the one we meet. It's just a few seconds of backstory telling us why he's an emotionless blob, there's no development of his character there at all.

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Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover

Well this is an old argument among fans of characters. I think of them as plain cliche evil and you think of them as deeper meanings. I say you'r eover-analzing to make them appear deep while you might say I'm over-generalizing to make them appear shallow.
I have nothing against Kefka or Ex Death but I view them as incredibly one-dimensional characters. Do you honestly think either of them have the depth of later FF antagonists?
Now I realize you can have depth without being a sympathetic villain but Kuja, Seymour and Shuyin all were obviously made to be sympathetic. They perform heinous actions but all those actions are directly a result of their past and things outside of their control.
I feel that makes an antagonist far more "deep" than simply going crazy because of an experiment.

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I disagree that a villain needs trauma to be a good villain or considered deep. Part of the appeal for a character like Kefka is that exploring his psychology is like exploring the mind of a serial killer. It makes him very fascinating cause there are several elements that set him apart from the other villains and for me, this makes him more than a two dimensional character. I don't think we need to go into this so I will save the lecture.

I feel there is major inconsistencies with the motives and back-stories of later FF villains which is why I have always had a difficult time feeling they were "deep". Far too often I feel the writers rely on cheap "sympathy" to make the characters more interesting despite their actions and past creating certain psychological inconsistencies. Sephiroth changes his motive every time a new plot element is revealed and it still changes when he shows up in the Compilation. Ultemacia was poorly written and considering how many different theories exist regarding her and how all of them share the same problem of having to make up her back story to justify her actions is proof of this bad writing.

I like Kuja and I feel he is one of the best villains in the series, especially since he doesn't play the sympathy card as hard as others do and despite understanding his reasoning, it never changed the fact he was a selfish bastard willing to kill for his own benefit.

Sin/Yu-Yevon is an interesting concept but I don't really consider it evil as much as a elemental force by the time X begins but Seymour never convinced me of being a great villain, He also suffers a bit of "Sephiroth syndrome" in that his motive changes quite a bit yet the game tries to lead you to believe he planned it all along which contradicts what he said hours before. I feel his little flashback as a sad attempt on the writers part to make him more than the two dimensional character he was and I feel it only causes more problems. I would be like seeing a flashback towards the end in VI, where you learn Kefka had an abusive alcoholic dad. I feel it cheapens the character rather than adds depth cause now your trying to make an attempt to explain them and doing a half ass job about it.

He's selfish and power hungry throughout all of the game and yet at the end he decides he needs to destroy Spira to save it despite not giving a damn about anyone up until then. Where the hell did this logic come from? His motive, actions, and past conflict with each other too much for my taste. Throw in the fact I never was able to take him seriously as a villain and he just went down hill for me.

Shuyin has similar respect issues for me. He gets his girlfriend and himself killed and decided to blame everyone but himself... how juvenile. Throw in his over the top acting when he possesses people and his "Phantom of the Opera" style final battle and I feel Shuyin is more laughable and irritating than deep and interesting. My thoughts when I faced him at the end was "OMG, Spira is going to be destroyed by the star of the High school drama club..." If Twilight was around when the game was made, I'm certain he would have had a vampire motif to his design as well.

Basically, he was so laughable to me that I can't take his trauma seriously and when I try to; I feel he's being a whiny kid who needs to grow up. I can't see him as a person pushed to the edge of sanity. I cannot respect him and a villain needs to be respected for them to work effectively.

My problem with the later games is that they try to stick to this idea that people are inherently good and evil is a result of something that society does to them. Sometimes, you are just born evil, Hojo is not exactly a two dimensional villain either, but has no backstory to explain his actions or motives. Yet, no one would argue that he needs these elements and most feel he is a wonderful and deep villain.

I think my main problem with the "sympathy card" is that I feel the past never justifies the characters action completely. I feel Sephiroth and Ultemacia went too bonkers considering their back stories; and I feel Seymour was fine until the end, when he decided to take some self righteous route, that for me, contradicts his entire personality up until that point. Shuyin is another that I feel his back story does not really justify his actions, and overall makes him appear more unstable and difficult to sympathize with.

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Jecht was the best choice considering how much of Tidus' narrative revolves around his relationship with him. He doesn't even know Shuyin and Tidus is the main hero of X. If they make a sequel with the sequel/compilation stuff being thrown in, then Shuyin can face off with Gunner Yuna.

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We don't need any more pointless fanservice games.

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Dissidia is a pointless fanservice game imo. Course it doesn't change I'm looking forward to it. I accept it for its pandering to the fans. :)

It was established in X that everyone in Zanarkand was screwed and would probably die. So Yu Yevon created Sin to avoid this icomplete loss of their society. Shuyin chose to commandeer a superweapon to try and stop his home and love from being taken away from him.
Seems sensible to me. As for him blaming others....other people did kinda start the whole Machina War to begin with so he's ultimately right it is all their fault. He was simply forced to do what he had to do by circumstance they imposed on him.

I don't see how his acting is over-the-top..He talks pretty plainly when he reveals himself in Nooj in CHapter 3 and when he's using Baralai.

What do you mean by Phantom of the Opera style final battle?.

And the Twilight idea...are you saying X-2 ripped off stuff? Because none of the FFs are original. Each re-uses achetypes and ideas from other things.

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YouTube - Final Fantasy X-2 - 048 - Baralai, Nooj & Gippal in Bevelle

I see nothing over-the-top about his voice-acting here. If you mean stuff like during the final battle with Vegnagun where he says things like "Come Vegnagun...let us purge this repulsive world" I don't see issue with that either but I guess you could say it was overdone. I think it was supposed to be however. Lines that like only work when you're trying to sound evil.

I can see where you are coming from Wolf.
http://forums.eyesonff.com/final-fan...gonist-ff.html

As you can see I've ha da complete 180 on what I think of his character since I posted that. Having replayed the game and learned alla bout the Crimson Squadd stuff as well, I find it pretty awesome that Shuyin's hate and sadness alone turn people, and even the Fayth, insane. He also has some awesome final battle music and quotes....
YouTube - Shuyin Battle Quotes

He blames the death of Lenne and them being separated on everyone but himself, despite the fact it was his own damn fault for being in Bevelle and having Lenne follow him to their untimely deaths. He doesn't try to commandeer Vegnagun to stop Zanarkand from Sin as much as he does it to keep Lenne from having to fight on the frontlines. She tries to stop him cause Vegnagun would cause unspeakable destruction and she can't have that on her conscience. They get killed and he decides humanity needs to suffer cause he's dead from his own damn fault and can't pass on cause he doesn't want to?

I just feel his actions are a bit extreme. I can see him trying to get revenge against Bevelle but writing off the whole damn planet cause he got himself screwed over feels like something only a social outcast in high school could relate to. He's obviously unstable to begin with since he's willing to destroy all of mankind so his girlfriend doesn't have to fight. Some may say its romantic but I find it childish.

As for the Phantom of the Opera, its the whole fact he's playing that organ to control Vegnagun and its a horribly funny cliche when it comes to stereotypical villains. The Twilight reference was a joke because to me, Shuyin is basically a whiny HS kid who probably jumps into these fads. I feel his dialogue is a bit overly melodramatic but that's a personal opinion and is subject to personal interpretation.