True Series Progress?

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07-18-2009, 11:59 PM
Depression Moon

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but the outfits are pure modern street design

Err what about Nero, Vergil, Kyrie, Credo, Agnus, Arius, Matier, and Gloria?

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The combat system itself, reminds of DMC's, as the core appeal is juggling opponents with combos which is the same philosophy for XIII's system. Not to mention the wire-fu used in a lot of trailers doesn't help with DMC's use of wire-fu.

Oh, I was just looking at it from the point of it turn-based with use of magic and summoning.

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The appeal of rpgs have dwindled but I feel FF has taken a place as a core title much like MGS, Gran Turismo, Madden, and Mario. Its become the causal crowd's "choice" for the RPG.

Those two sentences sound contradicting to me.
07-19-2009, 12:28 AM
Kawaii Ryûkishi

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Originally Posted by Ouch!

As far as I'm concerned, if you're looking into Final Fantasy plots for anything beyond middle school level pseudo-philosophy told via soap opera storytelling conventions, you're doing it very, very wrong. Even the best stories in the series are frequently difficult to take seriously, most often because of how seriously they take themselves.

The closest I've ever seen a video game come to being emotionally moving or take on any particularly powerful subject matter was in Lost Odyssey, and really only in the Thousand Years of Dreams which was a collection of beautifully crafted short stories.

That's not to say that I don't find the plots of the games entertaining, but it's not exactly something one should expect to hold any sort of literary significance or have particularly well-developed social commentary. I'd love to see more of that, but it's not something I've come to expect.

I don't expect anything like that, either. Nomura-styled video games are just incredibly dumb, even compared to other games.
07-19-2009, 04:08 AM
Ouch!

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Originally Posted by Kawaii Ryûkishi

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Originally Posted by Ouch!

As far as I'm concerned, if you're looking into Final Fantasy plots for anything beyond middle school level pseudo-philosophy told via soap opera storytelling conventions, you're doing it very, very wrong. Even the best stories in the series are frequently difficult to take seriously, most often because of how seriously they take themselves.

The closest I've ever seen a video game come to being emotionally moving or take on any particularly powerful subject matter was in Lost Odyssey, and really only in the Thousand Years of Dreams which was a collection of beautifully crafted short stories.

That's not to say that I don't find the plots of the games entertaining, but it's not exactly something one should expect to hold any sort of literary significance or have particularly well-developed social commentary. I'd love to see more of that, but it's not something I've come to expect.

I don't expect anything like that, either. Nomura-styled video games are just incredibly dumb, even compared to other games.

I guess having your quote right above might have suggested otherwise, but I wasn't really accusing you of any of that. I just get annoyed when I see people trying to argue that any Final Fantasy titles are particularly thought-provoking.

I see what you mean, though. Nomura's stuff is a bit of a step below the rest, particularly because it frequently tries to present itself as being deep and meaningful when it's just not, and that just tends to make it even worse. I'll admit, though, I enjoy my fair share of it, but not because I feel it has any real substance to it. Take Kingdom Hearts, for example. It frequently takes itself very seriously, but when it boils down to it, the Disney movies it incorporates are frequently more profound than the game itself.
07-19-2009, 05:33 AM
Wolf Kanno

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Originally Posted by Skyblade

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

I'm still riding a motorcycle made from a pair of twins. :p

Take this out of context, and Kanno's personal life seems so much more interesting...

If only you knew... :jokey:

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Originally Posted by Depression Moon

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but the outfits are pure modern street design

Err what about Nero, Vergil, Kyrie, Credo, Agnus, Arius, Matier, and Gloria?

Ignoring the psuedo religious/Military uniforms that are based off real world outfits except obviously Gloria's and DMC 2 cause it sucks...:roll2 its still basically street close in the core cast. I actually have Vergil's outfit (though in a different color), and Nero's is street close with the exception of his otherworldly vest of belts he wears. In fact looking at DMC4, I feel the designs seem somewhat inspired by Nomura designs which is really sad cause the DMC4 artist has done better work...(BoF anyone?)

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Oh, I was just looking at it from the point of it turn-based with use of magic and summoning.

There is a much greater emphasis on visual aesthetics for the battles, in fact the director has actually made a point to mention how long they worked on the visuals for the combat system in several interviews.

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The appeal of rpgs have dwindled but I feel FF has taken a place as a core title much like MGS, Gran Turismo, Madden, and Mario. Its become the causal crowd's "choice" for the RPG.

Those two sentences sound contradicting to me.

Not really if you think about it. RPGs as a whole are not doing as stellar as they did, say 10 years ago when they went mainstream. But I guarantee FFXIII will do phenomenal numbers. Basically the casual crowd doesn't have the patience or care to play through... say Yggdrasil Union or Shin Megami Tensei: Devil Survivor but they may jump into a Final Fantasy cause its become a name brand.

Its popular and it has a good rep so they may jump in without actually knowing anything about it. Its like how sports games do decently but Madden breaks sales records. There are several good and unknown sandbox games out there (like Steambot Chronicles or Crackdown) but only GTA really ever breaks serious numbers. The genre does okay but it seems like only one series ever does exceptionally well.

RPGs don't really seem to get much coverage like they use to unless it has Final Fantasy or Kingdom Hearts in the title or if its part of Morrowind or made by Bioware.
07-20-2009, 02:49 PM
Bolivar

I just wanna say I take credit for single-handedly reviving this thread ( :p
) but more importantly I'm glad to see we're putting some things on the table.

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

RPGs don't really seem to get much coverage like they use to unless it has Final Fantasy or Kingdom Hearts in the title or if its part of Morrowind or made by Bioware.

Dude, that's how our market economy works. Firms don't have enough resources to supplement every title with block-buster advertising, so they funnel the consumer to a select few titles while allowing the rest of the genre to serve as a long tail. It has nothing to do with the attitudes of average game players or the quality of mainstream nor obscure games.

If Paris Hilton talked about Devil Summoner, X-Play gave it a 5/5, the fanboy idiots at Kotaku quoted its developers out of context (re: MGS4 is Not Revolutionary by Mike Fahey), and the localization team gave gameplay tutorials at Gametrailers, it would probably sell a million plus.

Side Note: Crackdown sold 1.5 million units, and pound for pound it's still a poor man's GTA so your example fails on two fronts.

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My only problem with this is that its something that Square did with Chrono Trigger 14 years ago. In fact its a pretty common theme in a lot of RPGs in the PS1 and 2 eras. So for me, it might be thought of as progress for the FF series but I feel its more like "catching up".

Man, I love CT so much, that entire chapter blew my mind, and that game was lightyears ahead of its time, but you pretty much summed it up in your own response. The title of the thread is "true series progress" not genre progress or platform progress, so it seems you're aware of your own straw-reaching to take pop shots at Nojima while agreeing that he's expanding on previously established themes of the series.

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Originally Posted by Kawaii Ryushikaze

I assure you that I find your admiration for Nomura, Kitase, and company is at least as insane as you might find my dismissal of them.

I don't give two flying smurfs about your dismissal of a development team, I think it's great that we have a place where people can intelligently put that on the table, but if you can't do that without ridiculing someone's ideas, you have no business being in a constructive discussion about it. I was under the impression you people banned posters for that. :rolleyes2
07-20-2009, 04:34 PM
Kawaii Ryûkishi

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

I don't give two flying smurfs about your dismissal of a development team, I think it's great that we have a place where people can intelligently put that on the table, but if you can't do that without ridiculing someone's ideas, you have no business being in a constructive discussion about it. I was under the impression you people banned posters for that. :rolleyes2

Considering the way you constantly talk down to others, are telling me to ban you? Because I'd be happy to oblige you.
07-20-2009, 10:35 PM
black orb

>>> Im excited with this new FF (those new gameplay/battles looks like progress to me)..
07-21-2009, 12:01 AM
Vyk

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

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Originally Posted by Kawaii Ryushikaze

I assure you that I find your admiration for Nomura, Kitase, and company is at least as insane as you might find my dismissal of them.

I don't give two flying smurfs about your dismissal of a development team, I think it's great that we have a place where people can intelligently put that on the table, but if you can't do that without ridiculing someone's ideas, you have no business being in a constructive discussion about it. I was under the impression you people banned posters for that. :rolleyes2

I think anyone who's spent any real length of time at the fora would realize, or should realize that kishi has very strong opinions on things. Not always the popular opinion. So it shouldn't really be a huge surprise if he strongly disagrees with someone. Its not like he was calling Laddy stupid. He basically just said "are you kidding?"

I'm looking forward to the game. But the creators have stated themselves they want it to be like 7. Lightning was specifically designed to be a female Cloud

I don't pretend that FF has been anything ground breaking and revolutionary from a literary stand-point. But for me, the last FF I truly enjoyed was 7, for whatever reason. So hopefully this one will do what I've needed to enjoy the series again
07-21-2009, 07:05 AM
Wolf Kanno

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

RPGs don't really seem to get much coverage like they use to unless it has Final Fantasy or Kingdom Hearts in the title or if its part of Morrowind or made by Bioware.

Dude, that's how our market economy works. Firms don't have enough resources to supplement every title with block-buster advertising, so they funnel the consumer to a select few titles while allowing the rest of the genre to serve as a long tail. It has nothing to do with the attitudes of average game players or the quality of mainstream nor obscure games.

But this seems to be a poor system imho. It seems to much like putting all your eggs in one basket and it seriously sucks when games like X-2 and Crisis Core receive more attention than a deserving game like The World Ends With You which I have never heard any negative comments on and is generally regarded as one of the more underrated titles of this console generation.

SE has enough stuff to completely reintroduce Mana and Front Mission, two series that could easily become good franchises if they only released the games and then actually try to promote them. Front Mission 1 was ported to DS and I've yet to meet anyone who is actually aware of this. I feel SE is dropping the ball by relying too much on the FF/DQ/KH names alone.

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If Paris Hilton talked about Devil Summoner, X-Play gave it a 5/5, the fanboy idiots at Kotaku quoted its developers out of context (re: MGS4 is Not Revolutionary by Mike Fahey), and the localization team gave gameplay tutorials at Gametrailers, it would probably sell a million plus.

I honestly don't think so, no one cares about Hilton or X-Play. Of anything, it may drive away consumers. Kotaku misquoting wouldn't be a big deal cause its not part of a world famous franchise so they could write their own directors commentary and only a few fans would ever know and make a ruckus. Atlus has advertised the game quite a bit, it got very high marks, lots of praise and yet it never makes real headlines cauyse too many people are more interested in the long standing world famous franchises.

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Side Note: Crackdown sold 1.5 million units, and pound for pound it's still a poor man's GTA so your example fails on two fronts.

Its not that terrible, of anything its closer to GTA's roots than GTAIV was. :p Besides, we all know Saint's Row is the true "poor man's GTA". Crackdown sold well and has gotten stellar reviews but I don't hear people drumming for its sequel in anything that could be called anticipation. Let's face it, they bought it for the Halo 3 demo and enjoyed it cause it gave them their GTA fix for awhile.

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Man, I love CT so much, that entire chapter blew my mind, and that game was lightyears ahead of its time, but you pretty much summed it up in your own response. The title of the thread is "true series progress" not genre progress or platform progress, so it seems you're aware of your own straw-reaching to take pop shots at Nojima while agreeing that he's expanding on previously established themes of the series.

But for a series known for "defining RPGs in terms of story, gameplay and visuals" its now supposedly "revolutioninzing" things by utilizing story elements that are tried and true. Besides, we don't even knowhow much of a role this exiling will really have on the story and whether we could put it on the same level of atrocity as CT's version (I won't even touch on Xenogears). For all we know, the exiles play a role for the first few hours and then that whole plot thread disappears once the Fa'Ciel stuff starts getting on (kinda like those slums in VII ;)). So in essence, we only have speculation at this point. Personally I don't see being exiled from the dictator run planetoid is a terribly bad thing.

The FF series always seems to put the kiddy gloves on when it comes to the heavy stuff. The Meaning of Life and identity of Vivi, the Yevon Faith, even the Archadian politics are all sorta like the watered down versions of other series who all happen to be owned by SE. How can a series get so much credit for storytelling and pushing boundaries in terms of plot and character when it seems like other series always do it before and generally better?
07-21-2009, 10:32 PM
Bolivar

1. I'm not saying it's a great system or defending it. I'm just pointing out that things sell and fail for reasons irrespective to consumer tastes or quality.

2. G4 and Paris Hilton don't matter to gamers like us, in fact the majority of advertising spent on games, at least in genres we follow doesn't to us. It influences other kinds of gamers.

3. Even in Chrono Trigger, exploitation was one point in the story, just like the slums in FFVII, or like you're speculating about XIII.

4. I've come to find over the years that those same games you're implying use the same kiddie gloves, just to a lesser extent. Xenogears may be mindblowing, but games like FFVII and Metal Gear surprised me as well. They're not as far and away as you pretend they are.
07-22-2009, 06:15 AM
Wolf Kanno

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

1. I'm not saying it's a great system or defending it. I'm just pointing out that things sell and fail for reasons irrespective to consumer tastes or quality.

I understand, and I agree with you but I do feel that many of the major series are designed for a wider and somewhat more casual market in that they are designed for greater mass appeal. I'm still a bit miffed about the changes done to MGS4's gameplay...

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2. G4 and Paris Hilton don't matter to gamers like us, in fact the majority of advertising spent on games, at least in genres we follow doesn't to us. It influences other kinds of gamers.

I seriously don't want to meet these people. Still I feel that several companies could get more out of some of their lesser known works if they just did more PR for them. Not to mention they don;t take hints like Capcom telling fans to stop asking about the next Breath of Fire or Squenix itself releasing a statement about no plans for a sequel to the Chrono series so please stop asking... I really wish I could meet some of their testers and focus groups.

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3. Even in Chrono Trigger, exploitation was one point in the story, just like the slums in FFVII, or like you're speculating about XIII.

Yes, but it had a resolution, which VII did not. We actually get to see some conclusion to this ordeal whereas we never really get to see such a thing in VII. They could have at least kept up the theme in the story to the end. Not even with the Compilation, this theme is pretty much gone and forgotten.

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4. I've come to find over the years that those same games you're implying use the same kiddie gloves, just to a lesser extent. Xenogears may be mindblowing, but games like FFVII and Metal Gear surprised me as well. They're not as far and away as you pretend they are.

Ok... you are going to have to tell me how Xenogears uses kiddie gloves. This I would like to hear ;)
07-22-2009, 06:30 AM
Skyblade

In general, I find that PR is bad for the entire gaming industry, though it has been improving slowly over time.

In one of the animated stories that came with my Advent Children Complete, Denzel actually talks quite a bit about the opression of the slums. Denzel had come from the plate and was friends with a boy from the slums after the fall, until they had a falling out over the prejudices.
07-22-2009, 06:47 AM
Wolf Kanno

Well hot damn, someone remembered for the Compilation. That's news to me but I have not seen AC Complete.
07-22-2009, 08:37 AM
Rostum

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

Well hot damn, someone remembered for the Compilation. That's news to me but I have not seen AC Complete.

See it. It's such a great improvement from the original - almost felt like a different movie.
07-22-2009, 07:29 PM
Bolivar

Regarding CT and VII, VII's ending was open-ended, but even then it was given further conclusion.

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

Ok... you are going to have to tell me how Xenogears uses kiddie gloves. This I would like to hear ;)

Kiddie gloves is your term... all I'm saying is that while arguably more extreme than its contemporaries, Xenogears still looks like a Disney movie compared to the Three Penny Opera or Baal.

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