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There's a logical error in all this though. When we see the flashback of Cloud's childhood in the original game before the promise at the water tower, we learn that Tifa never really knew Cloud intimately nor did she even care to know.
When did Tifa say, or even ACT like she didn't care? She didn't know Cloud that well, true, this is what she said. But as soon as Cloud talked to Tifa, she opened herself right up to him. If she really didn't care, she wouldn't have shown up at all. She even asked him to make a promise to save her if she was in trouble. Sounds to me like right off the bat that she'd wanted something more from Cloud than just friendship.
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Clouds whole purpose in joining SOLDIER was to become stronger and to get Tifa to notice him. The original game also states that Tifa did in fact wait to hear about Cloud but its never really stated why she suddenly cared when her whole conversation with Cloud in their childhood basically starts with her wondering why he called her out to talk and basically getting to know him in a sense.
Cloud had several months before he actual left and since it's been stated on MANY occasions that she and Cloud were childhood friends, it stands to reason that they got to know each other a bit before he left.
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There is no real starting point to say why Tifa fell in love with Cloud. She doesn't remember the MT. Nibel incident as she wasn't aware that Cloud was even following her or that he fell too. So we can't use that as a starting point, especially sense the adults blame Cloud for it.
Uhm okay... I think it's safe to assume that Tifa fell for Cloud sometime between the water tower promise scene and when he left. I mean she DID start looking for him in the newspapers right away. Clearly she had taken notice.
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This is why I feel Tifa didn't really fall in love with Cloud until the events of VII. Until then it was probably just a silly girlish fantasy.
Maybe but the way she prepared herself for when he was coming back and how disappointed she was when he didn't show up... I think there was some love there... and how can you not think that outfit is sexy? :p I think it's VERY sexy as to the people who wrote the Ultimania
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As stated before, I feel that the foundation of their relationship is compromised by the revelation that they never really talked before the water tower scene. Tifa's feeling from a literary standpoint are very shaky at best. I don't know too many girls who would fall head over heels over a silly childhood promise despite how much television and movies make us want to believe.
But it's NOT a silly childhood promise. It's forever engraved in Cloud's heart and they reference it several times in the compilation. (Like the “you're late” and the “sorry I'm late” scenes) It's obviously not silly to them.
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I never said that Cloud wan't in love with Tifa, I only said that I feel the foundation has changed as Cloud originally pursued Tifa who was oblivious of him at first.
Once again, Tifa was NOT oblivious to him. She obviously got to know him some before he left or else they wouldn't be called childhood friends.
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. Its obvious that Tifa is sustaining the relationship that Cloud inconsiderately compromises with his own insecurities.
You make it sound like Cloud didn't have a right to be upset in AC/C. He feels responsible for the death of two people very dear to him. He blows his one shot at redemption by contacting a fatal illness that he was trying to find a cure for. His son is dying and there's nothing he can do about it. I think Cloud has a right to feel insecure at this moment.
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It is Cloud's guilt but technically its a guilt shared by the whole party since they were all probably there when she died.
And who is standing there, right in front of her, when she dies? Cloud. No one else... but Cloud. So of COURSE he feels the most responsible. I'm sure they all feel bad, but Cloud was the ONLY one in a position to stop it and he failed.
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Granted, Cloud may have chosen to not open up to a fellow participant of this incident because it was Aerith and Cloud didn't want to create a misunderstanding about where he stood about his feelings for her.
lol... what? O_o;
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Cloud only truly dropped into depression because of what Geostigma was doing. Nojima here is saying their relationship is having issues and it goes beyond that. Cloud only begins to feel his overwhelming guilt because of Denzel and the fact that he was dying.
No, that's not what Nojima said. He said Cloud and Tifa would have had problems even WITHOUT Geostigma. Cloud was obviously in a depression before Geostigma. In Case of Tifa, Cloud began to be depressed after he took the flowers to the Forgotten City. Probably because it reminded him of Aerith and how he failed to protect her.
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Once again though, I'm not saying Cloud doesn't love her, only that his romantic feelings for her are obviously not as strong as her feeling's for him. This is actually quite normal in a relationship.
Okay that's fine. But if you're acknowledging that they're in a relationship, then you must feel that the love triangle is no longer up in the air, right?
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Cloud is accepting his disease as divine punishment and its Tifa who is struggling to put their family back together despite half of them slowly dying from an incurable disease. I'd say I nailed it on the head there that AC is Tifa trying to hold onto the relationship.
That makes it sound like Cloud wanted to die and I doubt this was true. If he accepted his disease, he would have no problem returning home to his family and Tifa. He was ashamed of his disease, ashamed at not being able to save Denzel. That's why he took off. He couldn't care for himself, let alone anyone else, this is what he says in Advent Children Complete.
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While I would argue there is no probable evidence suggesting Cloud dying is making him feel guilty about Zack
He stays in Advent Children AND Advent Children Complete, “I said I'd live out both our lives... easy to make that promise. I tried... But I...” obviously he regrets not being able to do this and feels guilty about it.
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this also brings up another inconsistency of the story and one of the reasons why I believe Aerith holds a special place in Cloud's heart.
What inconsistency?
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Aerith died, but its not like Cloud was the only one there. The rest of the party doesn't seem to be hung up on the death of a comrade like Cloud, who is beating himself over it two years after he supposedly made peace with it. Only Cloud feels guilty.
See what I wrote above about this. He was the only one there who could have done anything and he failed and HE was HER bodyguard. He failed her plain and simple, that's why he feels guilt.
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Tifa may hold a tinge of guilt, only cause she was jealous of her and Cloud holding onto her memory tends to get the most emotional reaction from her in the film.
The Reunion Files say that line of “Which is it, a memory or us?” was referring to Sephiroth, not Aerith.
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Everyone else has moved on, only Cloud chooses to blame himself for the events despite there being nothing he can do to save her. He technically saved Aerith from the first murder attempt when Sephy took over his mind to have him do it.
While it's true Cloud shouldn't be as hard on himself as he is, I think he has a right to feel guilty and not forgive himself.
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His guilt is self-inflicted and horribly misplaced, even concerning Zack's death and his charade as being like him, there was little Cloud could do in that situation. Cloud himself has his own personal demons and this is what is obviously causing the rifts in the relationship. Not so much his guilt, but his in-ability to move out of the past. He has a very negative form of thinking.
I agree to some extent but again, I think Cloud had a right to be feeling like this in the film.
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This is partly why I feel Aerith was important to Cloud. She was more than a friend and comrade to him. Not a romantic figure but someone who did mean a lot to him.
I agree.
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Unlikely, its stated in the Ultimania that JENOVA is brain dead and she is controlled through the will of Sephiroth.
Wha? I don't think they ever said she was brain dead but she IS being manipulated by Sephiroth. Honestly it's weird, they have said sephiroth was in control. but then there's times where they seem to treat jenova as if its will is still in play to some extent
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I'm not implying love though, more like reverence or at least a high level of respect. Its two different categories in my mind. He loves Tifa but Aerith is also equally important if not more despite him having no romantic feelings. Her death placed her there.
Do you have a source on this, or is it just your opinion? The sources have never put Aerith on a higher level than Tifa. In fact, it's always the other way around.
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I feel Aerith was the one that began to draw the real Cloud out. She was the one who first gave him purpose beyond living a pseudo mercenary lifestyle. He helped Tifa fight Shin-Ra out of obligation but he still distanced himself from it. It was when Aerith arrived and got involved that Cloud began to fight for a higher purpose. Course it gets lost once Sephiroth appears on the scene and the Reunion begins but before then, Aerith awoken up a part of Cloud when she woke up the part that was Zack.
No, she woke up the Zack in Cloud and that's all she woke up. It was NOT the real Cloud. The ONLY person who woke the normal Cloud up was Tifa in the Lifestream Event. Pus she was the one who woke him from his state at the train station.
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Originally Posted by Ultimania Omega
This ability is not limited solely to Jenova itself, for those who have its
cells within them possess it as well, though in an incomplete form.
Immediately prior to the start of the game, when Cloud's mind was shattered,
he ran into Tifa and seemed to immediately return to "normal" seeing her memories of him, which were then combined with his own ideal
vision of himself, fashioning a new personality for him.
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I think part of it also stems from the fact that Aerith is more of an ideal woman for Cloud. She is strong of heart and spirit, yet she is also someone who needs protection. Tifa grew up and no longer really needed the protector that Cloud promised to be, Aerith on the other hand needed a protector. Tifa's role in VII is overshadowed by Aerith once she is introduced and Tifa only begins to return to the forefront of Cloud's mind once Aerith is gone. Even then, Aerith still supplied reason for Cloud to go on.
Again this is your opinion. I don't feel Aerith was an ideal love for Cloud and the creators don't seem to think that either. Tifa DOES still need Cloud. She got the snot kicked out of her by Loz, did she not? He rescued her from falling debris in Advent Children Complete as well. So, no she does still need him as a protector. And I'd also like to point out that Cloud didn't even WANT to go after Aerith when she went to the forgotten city, but the others talked him into it.
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Yes, he was saving the planet and getting revenge; but he was also doing it to fulfill Aerith's final wish before she died. He always mentions Aerith throughout the second and third disc in this regard, and its hardly in a guilt manner but he was trying to settle the final business of a dead comrade.
Yes, I agree
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Even in the end, Cloud believes that Aerith is still there watching and helping them. It is Aerith who is implied to be helping Cloud after his final encounter with Sephiroth in the Lifestream. The man is clearly obsessed in some form and it goes beyond the influence of the Sephiroth Clone experiments.
Cloud is not obsessed with Aerith. This is your opinion. And it was TIFA'S hand that was reaching for Cloud, not Aerith's.
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To be honest, I partially blame Tifa for the Lifestream event, had she been more honest to Cloud in the beginning about his memories, Cloud may have been able to avoid several problems that occured in the course of the game.
And what happened when Cloud was told the truth? He went fricken nuts and gave Sephiroth the black materia. Keep in mind Cloud knew stuff he shouldn't have known so Tifa didn't know if her own memories were screwed up or what. She didn't know what was going on and thus didn't know how to act. Even if she had told him sooner, it would only have made the inevitable happen sooner.
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The point is, his feeling for Aerith are not important to the discovery of his true self, that is why Aerith would not likely show up in the event.
I see your point but you're removing Tifa from the equation. Those "tender memories" and "A secret wish no one else can know" were related to Tifa. Thats not isolated to Cloud and Cloud alone. Those feelings are for Tifa now.
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Their relationship did partially change though, Aerith seems to watch Cloud from the Lifestream acting like a guardian angel or surrogate mother while Cloud still holds onto her memory, both with admiration (VII Disc 2 and 3) and with guilt and regret (AC). He's quick to believe that Aerith is responsible for sending them Denzel which is something that seems to irritate Tifa a bit.
I don't remember Tifa being irritated here at all. I remember her saying “She brought Denzel to our home” and Cloud smiled. Can you please post where Tifa was irritated. Maybe the translation I read was different than yours.
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Except Zack is sort of a footnote in AC itself. He only appears twice, once symbolically as a wolf and the other time in person with Aerith. Aerith on the other hand appears five times, twice symbolically as healing water and three times in her true form. Its Aerith's hand that helps Cloud reach Bahamut Shin. Even still, I feel Cloud does deeply care about Zack as well, probably on the ame level as Aerith.
No no, Zack was NOT the wolf. The wolf represents Cloud's guilt (reunion files, pg. 86) and the healing water is NOT Aerith. If you're referring to the scene where Cloud and Tifa were unconscious in the church, it was stated in the Reunion Files that they healed by themselves, Aerith was NOT there. Also Zack got another huge appearance in advent Children Complete which I guess you haven't seen. I highly suggest you see it because it clears up a bit about the love triangle like Cloud STATING why he left 7th heaven.
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As I said, I feel Aerith is like a loving mentor who helped open Cloud up in the first half of VII. Her memory drives him for the rest of the game and he is still thinking of her both positively (novels) and negatively (AC). I think Aerith is more like an ideal to Cloud, a way of thinking and motivation that is counter to his personal self defeating attitude. Its difficult to describe really, its not romantic but I would almost say it transcends the myth of romantic love that he has for Tifa at times.
I do agree that Aerith is important, but the official sources have not ever stated that she's more important than Tifa in any way to Cloud. Even in the quote that says Aerith is engraved in Cloud's heart, it also says she lives on in the hearts of everyone else at Avalanche. If Aerith really does mean more to Cloud than Tifa, they're doing a very poor job of showing it.
