FFXII could have been a masterpiece..

I feel somewhat guilty about this, but I thought sidetracking from the main story was one of the best things in the game. :p The world of FFXII was huge and had so many places and things to explore that they added a lot to the atmosphere of the game, which is just as important to me as character development. As for character development, I thought it was more subtle and happening throughout the game, as opposed to some of Nomura's FF titles, where there's plenty of melodramatic in-your-face character development and the character growing as a person in pretty much a single scene.

About the characters not getting much interaction and development, the script is 120-130 pages long if you don't include any of the NPC dialogue. Sure, that's not as much as FFs 7-9, but it still indicates that there is plenty of character interaction. To be frank, it's not like characters such as Cecil, Rosa, Kain, Rydia, Butz, Lenna, Faris, Galuf, Cara, Ramza or any of the characters from FF1-3 got much more development, and the character development for Squall, Rinoa, Tidus, Yuna, Wakka, Lightning, Snow and Hope felt a bit forced and sudden, IMHO. About FFXII having "useless" side characters, does anybody remember Edward, Palom, Porom, FuSoYa, Strago, Relm, Gau, Mog, Umaro, Gogo, Red XIII, Cait Sith, Vincent, Yuffie, Selphie, Irvine, Zell, Quistis, Eiko, Amarant, Quina, Lulu, Kimahri, Vanille, Agrias and Orlandu, to name a few? :p They had about as much development as FFXII's side characters, and I don't see anyone complaining about them.

On another note, I've beat FFV twice on SNES. The first time I played it, I didn't think the story was anything special. But when I played it again, I noticed how detailed the story and the characters actually are. Maybe it's the same way with FFXII, meaning you need to play it twice to get most of the storyline and characters?

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Originally Posted by Firestorm2

We're talking about Final Fantasy, where the Plot, Characters and Feelings mean Everything.

So, no story? No Final Fantasy.

About the music, no Nobuo Uematsu? No party.

There you have it, Final Fantasy XII, the WORST one of the series.

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Excuse me, but this definition sounds extremely questionable to me. For example, the first Final Fantasy game (FF, or FF1) had pretty much none of the things you described (plot, character and feelings, whatever the latter means), and yet it's one of the most FF-ish titles in the series. It has a medieval fantasy world, characters with classes (Fighter with a sword, White Mage, Black Mage etc), Bahamut, elves, dwarves and other species, and themes by Nobuo Uematsu. I do agree with the FFs not being the same without Uematsu, but admittedly, his role has been from small to none in every FF after IX (except Advent Children and FFXIV). At least FFXII brought back Prelude, Final Fantasy Main Theme (aka Prologue), Victory Fanfare, Chocobo Theme and (SPOILER)Clash on the Big Bridge. Out of these, only the Chocobo Theme is featured in FFs X, X-2 and XIII, and Prelude in FFX and FFXI.

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Originally Posted by Firestorm2

We're talking about Final Fantasy, where the Plot, Characters and Feelings mean Everything.

So, no story? No Final Fantasy.

About the music, no Nobuo Uematsu? No party.

There you have it, Final Fantasy XII, the WORST one of the series.

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Did I just read one of the worst descriptions of final fantasy of all time? I believe I did.

I was having a nostalgic moment a few moments ago, where I was contemplating all of the RPG games(from board games, to written games, to what we have today) i've played and inevitably my mind wandered to FFXII. Somehow, I came across this discussion(it smelt of mist) and I decided to contribute my two-cents(though in today's economy, it is more likley to be one-cent or heck! One quid!).

I received the collector's edition of FFXII for Christmas in 2007. I had thoroughly enjoyed FFX(despite the criticism surrounding it) and I had looked forward to what looked to be a game geared towards someone of my specific nerdiness. Four years later, and i'm still enthralled by this game. What follows will not be an unabashed love fest however, as I do have critiques of this title. Ultimately though, I believe that in order to really appreciate something, you must be able to evaluate both its positive and negative aspects.

When I read negative reviews for FFXII, most of the complaints are as follows:
-Confusion as to who is the main character
-Vann(who seems to be the main character at times) is grating and unlikeable
-The score suffered without Nobou Uematsu
-The game is too long
-The plot is too complicated
-The pace of the game is too choppy
-The ending was rushed
-The liscence board

To speak to the main character point, the lack of a single main character in a game(or story) doesn't bother me. I don't mind for the protagonist to infact be a group or cast of characters, so long as each character is given some attention that explains their significance to the story. And I believe that FFXII tried to achieve this, to some extent. But they did unfortunately not suceed in this respect. At first glance, Ashe appeared to be the obvious candidate for main character. The plot is affected and propelled the greatest by her actions and her decisions. She is the one tasked by the deceptive Occuria to cut a new shard from the Nethicite, and it is her decision not to be a pawn of the warmongering beings that leads to the eventual outcome of the game. But then we have Vann, which brings me to point number two. Vann is often seen by fans as an incredibly annoying character. I've played this game three times now, and I've liked and understood it more with each playthrough, but I have never warmed up to this sloppily thrown together exscuse of a character. The fact that Vann is the character whose image is seen in cities and towns as well as is high-stats make him seem like the intended main character. But all he is really, is a tie-in for the story. And a BAD tie-in at that. This character could have been developed better(for instance, making him look like an actual street rat and not some sort of entertainer), his relationship with his brother and dead family could have been expanded upon, and his appearence could have been altered(I think his hair looks absolutely silly in the HD cutscenes--it looks like a lego piece! Like it doesn't even belong on his head! And why is it that his clothes look new and exspensive? And why isn't he tan if he lives in the middle of a desert? As a matter of fact, why aren't more Rabanastrian's tan?).

So, to wrap up the first two points: Yes, there is confusion as to who is the main character. This could have been avoided if the game makers had chosen to shift the focus more on one character or, better yet, if they had given characters equal treatment and acknowledged all of their roles in the plot as oppossed to having two stock characters(Vann and Penelo) and one character of questionable purpose(Fran). Penelo is the least developed out of all the FFXII main cast, which I always found sad as her character design is adorable and her potential as more than just the "cute-factor" of the team was unexplored. *sigh*
And yes, Vann is an annoying character. He was shoddily written, not designed well, and ultimately had little to do with the story.

I am a fan of Nobou Oematsu, but I wouldn't say that this game would have been better with his score. Infact, I think this is perhaps the best overall soundtrack out of all of the Final Fantasy soundtracks. The feel isn't as contemporary as let's say, the music from FFVII or FFX, but why would it be? FFXII is an epic fantasy with vague science-fiction themes. It isn't contemporary--it has a distinctly unique old-world feel to it that somehow doesn't feel old. The music is wonderfully abstract and fantastical, and I never grow tired of it. It's entirely unique too---I can't think of another game or movie soundtrack that i've heard that is quite like this one.

Personally, I found this game to be almost the perfect length. And with how exspensive it was when it first came out(especially the collector's edition) you really get what you pay for. If anything, I found this game to be one or two chapters too short. Part of this is because of another common complaint: the plot is too complicated. I disagree with this statement, because I love the plot. Maybe it's because I read all the time, or maybe it's because most of the books that I read tend to be lengthy standalones or series filled with plot and detail. Maybe it's because my favorite game is Shenmue II, which is prolific for not only costing a heck of a lot of money to make, but also having a rediculous amount of areas and buildings to explore during free gameplay. I love the plot of this game. It's rich with political intrigue, epic journeys, interesting and diverse areas and races, and a realistically glum setting that goes well with the serious tone of the story. Unfortunately, this wonderfully complicated plot worked against the game creators in some ways. Things that are introduced in the story are not completley expanded upon(like the nation of Rozaria--which we never get to see!). The ending was a little rushed, and somewhat disatisfying. After almost 200 hours of gameplay, I expected them to take their time with it, like they had the majority of the game.

As for the pace, I really enjoyed it up until the rushed ending. Perhaps this is because I didn't strive to complete all of the side-quests and hunts my first time around. All I cared about was the plot. And the second playthrough, when I did focus on game completion, I wasn't bored at all. Why? Because this game improves itself after every replay. I relearned things about the plot I had forgotten, learned new things, and paid more attention to all the fascinating information pumped into the Bestiary. I didn't really mind the liscence board either, though I can understand some of the complaints against it.

Overall, I both agree and disagree with the OP. Yes, there is plenty of unexplored potential in this game. But the incredibly amount of explored potential in the game is enough for me to consider it my favorite out of the FF series. If only the sequel had expanded upon the story's loose threads, I think this game would be more appreciated for the wonderful accomplishment that it is.

On a COMPLETE side note, I've always thought that this game would make a great book series(possibly a trilogy?). So much more detailed can be explored in literature, and character development is generally better in my opinion. I was having a nostalgic moments a few moments ago, where I was contemplating all of the RPG games(from board games, to written games, to what we have today) i've played and inevitably my mind wandered to FFXII. Somehow, I came across this discussion(it smelt of mist) and I decided to contribute my two-cents(though in today's economy, it is more likley to be one-cent or heck! One quid!).

I received the collector's edition of FFXII for Christmas in 2007. I had thoroughly enjoyed FFX(despite the criticism surrounding it) and I had looked forward to what looked to be a game geared towards someone of my specific nerdiness. Four years later, and i'm still enthralled by this game. What follows will not be an unabashed love fest however, as I do have critiques of this title. Ultimately though, I believe that in order to really appreciate something, you must be able to evaluate both its positive and negative aspects.

When I read negative reviews for FFXII, most of the complaints are as follows:
-Confusion as to who is the main character
-Vann(who seems to be the main character at times) is grating and unlikeable
-The score suffered without Nobou Uematsu
-The game is too long
-The plot is too complicated
-The pace of the game is too choppy
-The ending was rushed
-The liscence board

To speak to the main character point, the lack of a single main character in a game(or story) doesn't bother me. I don't mind for the protagonist to infact be a group or cast of characters, so long as each character is given some attention that explains their significance to the story. And I believe that FFXII tried to achieve this, to some extent. But they did unfortunately not suceed in this respect. At first glance, Ashe appeared to be the obvious candidate for main character. The plot is affected and propelled the greatest by her actions and her decisions. She is the one tasked by the deceptive Occuria to cut a new shard from the Nethicite, and it is her decision not to be a pawn of the warmongering beings that leads to the eventual outcome of the game. But then we have Vann, which brings me to point number two. Vann is often seen by fans as an incredibly annoying character. I've played this game three times now, and I've liked and understood it more with each playthrough, but I have never warmed up to this sloppily thrown together exscuse of a character. The fact that Vann is the character whose image is seen in cities and towns as well as is high-stats make him seem like the intended main character. But all he is really, is a tie-in for the story. And a BAD tie-in at that. This character could have been developed better(for instance, making him look like an actual street rat and not some sort of entertainer), his relationship with his brother and dead family could have been expanded upon, and his appearence could have been altered(I think his hair looks absolutely silly in the HD cutscenes--it looks like a lego piece! Like it doesn't even belong on his head! And why is it that his clothes look new and exspensive? And why isn't he tan if he lives in the middle of a desert? As a matter of fact, why aren't more Rabanastrian's tan?).

So, to wrap up the first two points: Yes, there is confusion as to who is the main character. This could have been avoided if the game makers had chosen to shift the focus more on one character or, better yet, if they had given characters equal treatment and acknowledged all of their roles in the plot as oppossed to having two stock characters(Vann and Penelo) and one character of questionable purpose(Fran). Penelo is the least developed out of all the FFXII main cast, which I always found sad as her character design is adorable and her potential as more than just the "cute-factor" of the team was unexplored. *sigh*
And yes, Vann is an annoying character. He was shoddily written, not designed well, and ultimately had little to do with the story.

I am a fan of Nobou Oematsu, but I wouldn't say that this game would have been better with his score. Infact, I think this is perhaps the best overall soundtrack out of all of the Final Fantasy soundtracks. The feel isn't as contemporary as let's say, the music from FFVII or FFX, but why would it be? FFXII is an epic fantasy with vague science-fiction themes. It isn't contemporary--it has a distinctly unique old-world feel to it that somehow doesn't feel old. The music is wonderfully abstract and fantastical, and I never grow tired of it. It's entirely unique too---I can't think of another game or movie soundtrack that i've heard that is quite like this one.

Personally, I found this game to be almost the perfect length. And with how exspensive it was when it first came out(especially the collector's edition) you really get what you pay for. If anything, I found this game to be one or two chapters too short. Part of this is because of another common complaint: the plot is too complicated. I disagree with this statement, because I love the plot. Maybe it's because I read all the time, or maybe it's because most of the books that I read tend to be lengthy standalones or series filled with plot and detail. Maybe it's because one of my favorite games is Shenmue II, which is prolific for not only costing a heck of a lot of money to make, but also having a rediculous amount of areas and buildings to explore during free gameplay. I love the plot of this game. It's rich with political intrigue, epic journeys, interesting and diverse areas and races, and a realistically glum setting that goes well with the serious tone of the story. Unfortunately, this wonderfully complicated plot worked against the game creators in some ways. Things that are introduced in the story are not completley expanded upon(like the nation of Rozaria--which we never get to see!). The ending was a little rushed, and somewhat disatisfying. After almost 200 hours of gameplay, I expected them to take their time with it, like they had the majority of the game.

As for the pace, I really enjoyed it up until the rushed ending. Perhaps this is because I didn't strive to complete all of the side-quests and hunts my first time around. All I cared about was the plot. And the second playthrough, when I did focus on game completion, I wasn't bored at all. Why? Because this game improves itself after every replay. I relearned things about the plot I had forgotten, learned new things, and paid more attention to all the fascinating information pumped into the Bestiary. I didn't really mind the liscence board either, though I can understand some of the complaints against it.

Overall, I both agree and disagree with the OP. Yes, there is plenty of unexplored potential in this game. But the incredible amount of explored potential in the game is enough for me to consider it my favorite out of the FF series. If only the sequel had expanded upon the story's loose threads, I think this game would be more appreciated for the wonderful accomplishment that it is.

On a COMPLETE side note, I've always thought that this game would make a great book series(possibly a trilogy?). So much more detailed can be explored in literature, and character development is generally better in my opinion.

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the first Final Fantasy game (FF, or FF1) had pretty much none of the things you described (plot, character and feelings, whatever the latter means), and yet it's one of the most FF-ish titles in the series. It has a medieval fantasy world, characters with classes (Fighter with a sword, White Mage, Black Mage etc), Bahamut, elves, dwarves and other species, and themes by Nobuo Uematsu. I do agree with the FFs not being the same without Uematsu, but admittedly, his role has been from small to none in every FF after IX (except Advent Children and FFXIV). At least FFXII brought back Prelude, Final Fantasy Main Theme (aka Prologue), Victory Fanfare, Chocobo Theme and (SPOILER) Out of these, only the Chocobo Theme is featured in FFs X, X-2 and XIII, and Prelude in FFX and FFXI.

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By that logic, someone might say FFXII isn't an FF because it lack of random encounters and world map, don't you think ?

YO UEMATSU I'M REAL HAPPY FOR YOU AND IMMA LETCHU FINISH, BUT MASASHI HAMAUZU IS THE BEST FINAL FANTASY COMPOSER OF ALL TIME! OF ALL TIME!!!

EDIT:

FFXII's various composers are also cool, I guess.

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Originally Posted by Jessweeee♪

"FFXIII is too linear, no exploring!"
"FFXII has so much exploring, the pacing is terrible!"

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I thought stuff was half-made, with what was there being exelent and the obviousness of the rushed finish filling in the gaps. Yes some stuff is terrible, but the good parts are fairly good.

More importantly, I thought the explorability was decent, but did not scratch itches I had. (Like swapping out Vaan in city areas for something else. Like not having clothing wearable by characters.)

Well it's been about a year-and-a-half since I first played and beat FFXII. The time has given me a bit more objectivity I feel as I refined my opinions and viewpoints.

When it comes to the story, I think FFXII stands out as a firm example of what I have noticed in pretty much all fiction.
The villains are the real main characters. Face it, our brave heroes are only heroes because they're reacting to what the villains did first. The villains are the ones who are really doing everything and our heroes are just playing catch-up.

FF12 is a particularly glaring example of this. I adore the story of this game but it sure as hell isn't because of Fran.

hat kills the energy of the FFXII is the undeniablly poor pacing. Basch is the single best example of this since he becomes completely irrelevant to the plot from the moment Vossler dies all the way to the top of the Pharos. how many hours is that?

The cast do interact a lot but much of it is unnecessary fluff dialogue. Sure it's nice for setting a mood maybe but it doesn't really develp the characters all that well.

Yet, sprinkled in between these many scenes where our heroes interact in meaningless fashion, are the scenes wih the Archadians. The Judges The Emperor, Vayne, Cid - they are the ones who are really talking about stuff and moving the plot along. We learn about thema nd their ambitions. What they say is in fact important to the narrative.

Now don't get me wrong, I do appreciate FFXII's more subtle storyline. I understand that Vaan does develop as a character and it's just done in a less flashy way than it would have been done in previous installments in the series. But there is such a thing as being too subtle and I think this game suffers from that in a few areas.

Now, despite everything I just said about the characters and their flaws, the game really isn't about them. The game is not simply about Ashe saving the world from the Evil Empire. It's a world-spanning epic that is more about themes, ideas and grooups than it is about the individual. It's a study of Mankind and how people are hopelessly defined by their past. It's also a look into how various peoples choose the same path but go about it in startlingly different ways. Vayne thought dictatorship by Man upon Man was superior to that of the gods' but he still wanted Humans to decide their own fate just like the party did.

People often talk about who was the main character in this game. I submit there is no main character because, as I said, the game isn't just about any specific individual. It's a clashing of nations and of concepts

Also i have to agree with the earlier post abot FFXII being better on a replay. I'll admit the first few hours of the game are tedious but when you have the benefit of hindsight, when you can look at those events in the context of he overall storyline, they take on a much more intriguing element. I guess you just have to understand the underlying ideas the game is trying to convey in order to appreciate it.

Well that's all I have to say right now... Oh wait, one more thing.

Larsa is the best character in the game.

The main problem I had with FFXII was that they tried to cram in way too much storyline and character development, and it all just ended up being incomplete and rushed. I was honestly shocked when I reached the end of the game. I also ended up not caring for any of the characters.