Can't get enough Final Fantasy?

If you mean "high end" as in AAA quality and budget, I agree with Loony BoB. But if you look just outside that market there's a lot out there that's considerably better than FFXIII at the least (and I think it's fair to compare them to just that game since it's the only single player FF they've made in 5 years.

White Knight Chronicles can't compete with the production values, or even the story, but I had a lot more fun playing it. Going to shops, talking to townsfolk, exploring the wilderness, customizing my characters all really tickled that RPG pleasure center in my brain. I mean FFXIII made you wait 40 hours in to open up and even then it's still fairly linear. After the intro to White Knight Chronicles, you step out of the castle walls into a huge open field with the grass swaying, bugs flying about, and cute little baddies waiting to bashed and it was an absolutely GLORIOUS feeling. Maybe the best I had this generation, and that's coming form a hardcore MGS4 fanboy. It's not in the pantheon of classic RPGs. But it was an RPG for RPGers and I loved it.

Valkyria Chronicles is better than Final Fantasy now. It's more important of a game, and it's absolutely the definition of a modern classic. The second entry came out last year and it was a much better game than FFXIII.

Demon's Souls... I've played a lot of it, beaten a lot of levels and bosses but I still feel like I have penetrated deep enough into everything it offers... But even then, it's a game I respect as probably an overall better experience than FF.

From what I've heard from a lot of 360 fans, I'm sure they'd put Lost Odyssey up here as well. And I've seen a good chunk of Radiant Historia to know it's up there as well, as Del said. So is Golden Sun from what I've heard. I play a lot of remakes on my handhelds, so I wouldn't add them here, but the fact is there's a lot of new (not necessarily original) RPGs coming out, some even from Square, that show that FF really needs to find its soul before it becomes a certified has-been that I no longer buy. I hate to think about it, but at this point I really can see a future where I don't buy Final Fantasy anymore...

I've been aware of WKC, Valkyria, and Demon's Souls but when I looked into them they didn't really appeal to me for one reason or another. You're saying they're better than FFXIII, but that's no hard feat. Would you say they are on par with the PS1 and SNES era of RPGs?

I can't speak to WKC, and Wolf would disagree with me about Valkyria, but I'd say Valkyria and Demon's Souls are definitely as good as a lot of the best PSX and SNES era RPG's. I'd go so far as to say they're better in many cases.

Yeah... I don't feel WKC is that great of a game. Its story is kind of ho-hum and its battle system is actually pretty boring beyond the combo system. Even the White Knight is actually kind of boring to play as. It also borrows much more heavily into more annoying aspects of MMOs. I don't care for Valkyria Chronicles as a story, and I definetly don't believe its had much of an impact on RPGs as Bolivar seems to believe. The game play is good but it's story borrows too heavily from other anti-war anime like Gundam, to not feel irritating after awhile. Which is a shame because it has potential.

Demon's Souls is an awesome game, I just refuse to say its an RPG because it isn't. Its an action game with RPG elements, but progress is less about levels and even equipment to some degree, and more about pure skill. The fact leveling gets harder as you go through New Game+ pretty much just drives home the point that the RPG elements are not the major contributing factor to success and are simply a minor buffer to reward skill. If you suck at this game, its because you the player suck, and no amount of stat boosts or special equipment is going to change that. It really has more in common with an action game than an RPG. Hell, DMC and GoW have leveling systems but they're still considered action games. The game also has no real story, just a loose but incredibly engrossing narrative. It's fantastic and easily one of the best new games this console generation.

I'm with Del, there is a drought of good console JRPGs this generation. Even Squenix has admitted XIII wasn't everyone's cup of tea and even promised to let the team take a break so they can "re-learn" how to make them like they use to, and they've flat out apologized for FFXIV. They don't have a great track record in-house for the console market. Also, they're too recent "short development time" titles are both sequels to established products (FFXIII-2 and Dissidia Duodecim) and many of the game they mentioned as doing this model tend to have the benefit of having the core game elements and engine established. AC: Brotherhood is not exactly a great departure from AC2 both visually or gameplay-wise. As Del said, XIII-2 is practically an "apology" game that is trying to address all the grievances from the first game.

I'm curious to see what this development model would do for the final product because the games that utilize it now, basically work on the principle of fine tuning the game each year, but there is no drastic change between each installment. I'm curious to know what Squenix would use as the gameplay basis or if they would simply stick to come up with new systems but make them more simple and development friendly.

I think I fully admit in my post that WKC is not a great game, only that I had a lot more fun playing it, exploring the contours of every map, bashing baddies and customizing my characters.

And I don't think I've ever said Valkyria Chronicles has had an impact (yet), but it absolutely is the biggest innovation to the SRPG formula we've seen in quite some time. Every fan of the genre should play it.

I have to say I do think Demon's Souls is an RPG because it has character creation, and a degree of randomization to its numbers systems. You loot items and customize equipment. Unlike action games where every action you take is immediate or near-instantaneous, every action has a charge time to it that can be shortened or lengthened by the equipment you're using, the stats you have, and combat effects like being encumbered. It would be hard to imagine what game could legitimately be called an "Action RPG" if Demon's Souls isn't one.

But I wasn't just talking about console games here. The issue was: whether Final Fantasy XIII is better than the new RPGs of today? If you limit that to big budget, AAA titles, then yeah, it's probably better than The Last Remnant. But if you look at the titles that have come out on handheld and console, a lot of awesome stuff is still being made that shows you shouldn't have to lower your expectations. As Del said, Radiant Historia is the kind of game Square used to make and it's a shame that they don't seem to know how to do it anymore.

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

I think I fully admit in my post that WKC is not a great game, only that I had a lot more fun playing it, exploring the contours of every map, bashing baddies and customizing my characters.

And I don't think I've ever said Valkyria Chronicles has had an impact (yet), but it absolutely is the biggest innovation to the SRPG formula we've seen in quite some time. Every fan of the genre should play it.

I have to say I do think Demon's Souls is an RPG because it has character creation, and a degree of randomization to its numbers systems. You loot items and customize equipment. Unlike action games where every action you take is immediate or near-instantaneous, every action has a charge time to it that can be shortened or lengthened by the equipment you're using, the stats you have, and combat effects like being encumbered. It would be hard to imagine what game could legitimately be called an "Action RPG" if Demon's Souls isn't one.

But I wasn't just talking about console games here. The issue was: whether Final Fantasy XIII is better than the new RPGs of today? If you limit that to big budget, AAA titles, then yeah, it's probably better than The Last Remnant. But if you look at the titles that have come out on handheld and console, a lot of awesome stuff is still being made that shows you shouldn't have to lower your expectations. As Del said, Radiant Historia is the kind of game Square used to make and it's a shame that they don't seem to know how to do it anymore.

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Don't forget Xenoblade Chronicles! :tongue: (I know you hate me)

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Originally Posted by The White Wizard of Fynn

Don't forget Xenoblade Chronicles! :tongue: (I know you hate me)

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:pissed:

Not looking forward to this new route they're taking with FF.
Annual releases? Squeenix... Please no. :cry:

I think it is a good move forward. I don't really they think they have been putting out games of high enough quality to justify the development times they are taking. Getting back to more ambitious development cycles could help them get back into their groove.

I don't support hard deadline annual releases, but having that as a goal isn't so bad.

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

I think I fully admit in my post that WKC is not a great game, only that I had a lot more fun playing it, exploring the contours of every map, bashing baddies and customizing my characters.

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I understand, I actually agree that when I first started playing, having no other real JRPG goodness to delve into besides XIII, I was also just eating everything up, but the game kind of grew tedious for me. After awhile, once I kind of filled my thirst for RPG goodness and came back to the game, I started to see its faults. I consider the game better than FFXIII personally but I feel it's only a good JRPG because it has no real competition.

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And I don't think I've ever said Valkyria Chronicles has had an impact (yet), but it absolutely is the biggest innovation to the SRPG formula we've seen in quite some time. Every fan of the genre should play it.

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I can agree on it being innovated, but whether it has an impact hasn't been seen yet, but I honestly feel it will be a niche series within the larger SRPG genre much like Disgaea. I don't actually see it having a huge impact on the sub-genre to be honest, simply because it's innovations may not transfer over as well to something like the Tactics Ogre franchise, or Nippon Ichi's games.

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I have to say I do think Demon's Souls is an RPG because it has character creation, and a degree of randomization to its numbers systems. You loot items and customize equipment. Unlike action games where every action you take is immediate or near-instantaneous, every action has a charge time to it that can be shortened or lengthened by the equipment you're using, the stats you have, and combat effects like being encumbered. It would be hard to imagine what game could legitimately be called an "Action RPG" if Demon's Souls isn't one.

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I think my issue stems from the fact another From Software series, Armored Core, has most of those features as well, but no one would call Armored Core an Action RPG. Assassin's Creed also has charge times based on what weapon you use as well, and you purchase items and equipment from shops that can affect your characters "stats", so I feel Demon's Souls "RPG" elements are weak. It's still a fantastic game, but I kind of feel like it's in the same category as Vagrant Story, which is called an "Action RPG" despite most of its core elements leading one to believe the game defies any true genre, but we can't just say ??? when the genre entry comes up. ;)

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But I wasn't just talking about console games here. The issue was: whether Final Fantasy XIII is better than the new RPGs of today? If you limit that to big budget, AAA titles, then yeah, it's probably better than The Last Remnant. But if you look at the titles that have come out on handheld and console, a lot of awesome stuff is still being made that shows you shouldn't have to lower your expectations. As Del said, Radiant Historia is the kind of game Square used to make and it's a shame that they don't seem to know how to do it anymore.

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Agreed, in fact I find that Squenix's handheld titles are more true to form of the old days, granted most of them are remakes which is why, but games like KH: Birth By Sleep, Dragon Quest IX, and even FFIV:The After Years, are all well made, and perfectly palpable for more traditional minded fans. I am actually really impressed with the Agito/Type 0 game after playing the demo for awhile, and can honestly say I'm really looking forward to it. Hell, it has some elements in its design that I feel you would appreciate, like blending gameplay and storytelling with in-game cinematics. That Scorpion Tank encounter in the early part of the demo made my jaw drop actually, as well as the atmosphere leading up to the first boss encounter. I'm honestly still in disbelief this game was made by the same guy who did the sub-par Crisis Core. The game has blossomed into something truly more ambitious than its console big brother.

If they can pull off great games within that amount of time then I would say welcome back. Every FF title came out yearly or every other year since 1987, and things took a massive turn after FFX and the merge.

FF1-1987, FF2-1988, FF3-1990, FF4-1991, FF5-1992, FF6-1994, FF7-1997, FF8-1999, FF9-2000, FFX 2001................FFXII 5 years later........FFXIII 4 years later. Within the first 14 years we had 10 of the main Final Fantasy titles...in the 10 years between 2001 and 2011 we received 2. Of course they did waste a lot of that time on spin offs, online games and other such games, but I'm just counting the main titles while ignoring the MMOs altogether. I'd love it if they could get back on track and make games as they did between 1987 and 2001...before the blasted merge.

I'm a little bothered by this. As much as I love the Assassin's Creed series, for example, I can't help but notice how little difference there's been in the core game mechanics and visuals since Assassin's Creed II, which is why they've been able to churn one out every year since. Don't get me wrong, they've all been worthy games in their own right and I've had tons of fun with them but...after a while, you really start to desire that fresh new feel, like a whole new game that's 100% new material...something that, up until FFX-2, the FF franchise has always given us.

I have no problem with them doing it to produce sequels (like they did with X-2 and XIII-2) but I would hate for them to start doing it with core entries.

Uh, FFXII and FFXIII did give us something new. FFXI also gave us something new, despite what some fans want to think.

I'm all for stricter deadlines. I just hope the quality doesn't drop.

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

I don't actually see it having a huge impact on the sub-genre to be honest, simply because it's innovations may not transfer over as well to something like the Tactics Ogre franchise, or Nippon Ichi's games.

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That's what you would think, but the second game has melee classes and when you actually use one and take your first swing at somebody, it just clicks in your brain like "oh... okay... this can work..."

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think my issue stems from the fact another From Software series, Armored Core, has most of those features as well, but no one would call Armored Core an Action RPG. Assassin's Creed also has charge times based on what weapon you use as well, and you purchase items and equipment from shops that can affect your characters "stats", so I feel Demon's Souls "RPG" elements are weak. It's still a fantastic game, but I kind of feel like it's in the same category as Vagrant Story, which is called an "Action RPG" despite most of its core elements leading one to believe the game defies any true genre, but we can't just say ??? when the genre entry comes up. ;)

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There's a reason you put quotes around stats! While certain factors may have an impact on damage and charge times, the problem is that after those changes, those items become fixed entities. They're impacted by set intervals, not progressively. And damage isn't impacted by progressively changing strength, comparative defense, or customization of the item itself. Whereas in RPGs, it's all about randomization and what you try to do about it. Randomization is the hallmark of RPGs, going back to its origin in pen and paper games.

It's like when we discuss why Zelda isn't an RPG in GGaming, and the layers separating Demon's Souls and Zelda are pretty numerous.

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Hell, it has some elements in its design that I feel you would appreciate, like blending gameplay and storytelling with in-game cinematics. That Scorpion Tank encounter in the early part of the demo made my jaw drop actually, as well as the atmosphere leading up to the first boss encounter. I'm honestly still in disbelief this game was made by the same guy who did the sub-par Crisis Core. The game has blossomed into something truly more ambitious than its console big brother.

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I've heard a lot of good things about Agito from you guys, but I honestly can't see myself playing it. Despite all I've said in Demon's Souls defense, I'm just not interested in that Action RPG style that Square Enix has been on with Kingdom Hearts and Dissidia. I know Dissidia's supposed to be a fighting game, but I'm talking about the style here and Dissidia's really only a fighter because they have you fight one opponent at a time. It's not like Demon's Souls which is very well planned out by a developer who has roots in the origin of this kind of thing, it's just a lame attempt to move away from the criticism of non-fans of the genre that turn-based is inherently, by definition, a bad game mechanic. Then again, Type-0 might not even be what I'm talking about here at all, but I guess for now I'll just say i'll get around to it, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, just don't complain if I come with a wall of text for a post in the sub-forum :cool:

After thinking about it more, I like the idea of more frequent FFs. Only two main console entries into the series in 10 years just doesn't cut it. I think SE tries too hard to reinvent the wheel each time they make a FF and leads us to wildly different products like FFXII and FFXIII. A shorter development cycle may provide the focus they need to put in all the essential elements without taking it too far.

My only fear is that we'll be stuck with the FFXIII battle system in this scenario. The ATB system didn't change all that much from FFIV to FFIX. Perhaps they think FFXIII's system is the new baseline and future games will build upon it. That certainly supports a shorter development cycle, which we have see in FFXIII-2. I hope they change it, but at the same time I hope the change isn't another radical reimagniation (like action RPG).

A question: if they want to put out a FF game every 1-2 years doesn't that mean FFXV should already be in development?