Too Much Lightning and FFXIII?

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

- I see XIII-2 and Lightning Returns as Square-Enix taking the time to figure out what players want from them. They were lambasted by many for XIII and I don't think they want to start working on XV until they know it's going to be better received. In the main series, not including sequels/prequels and MMOs, they have released just one single player numbered game in in six years. I believe these other XIII sequels/spinoffs are being made to get an understanding of the modern gamer and what they can do to please people. I think that once they have a better understanding, they will start to really push on a new game. By using XIII sequels/prequels, they can minimise costs that would be spent on concepts, design and development for monsters, worlds, lore, characters which they would have had to pay a lot for if they were to come up with a completely new game.

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While I agree with this assessment I also feel that this is kind of stupid on SE's part because the only people SE is getting feedback from are the fans who happened to feel XIII wasn't so bad, these sequels are doing nothing to appeal to fans who felt XIII was rubbish and may have lost interest in the series. I feel continuing on like this to collect data is only going to give a very skewed idea of what the fanbase as whole wants and will instead continue on making games for a niche part of the fanbase as well as losing more widespread appeal to non-fans.

There has to be a balance between the 2 types to get the ultimate protagonist, if XV comes out and has another Tidus I might shoot someone XP

I honestly felt Lightning had a fair amount of substance, hell more than Cloud and Squall were. Cloud and Squall were badasses, but still wannabe Clint Eastwood style heroes. Beyond the whole big sword, strutting and anti social mercenary archetype they weren't really that much, they had their reasons I suppose. Cloud being an escaped labrat who due to mako was thinking he was Zak, Squall was an Orphan who's only friend left him, he became hardened and anti social but then turned into a cringeworthy, soppy love puppy...

Zidane, well, it was his "Just hit puberty, better try and get my leg over with every girl I run into" thing that got old so fast. It kinda ruined him for me a bit.

Tidus... ... ... daddy issues, awkwardly nightmare material laugh... do I need to say more?

I felt Lightning had a good bit of character in her. Why she didn't strangle Hope I still don't know, bonding to THAT like a little brother? WHY!? She should have killed him with fire. Maybe less people would hate her if she did that.
I enjoyed her hardfaced get on with it attitude but that it was a sort of escapism from guilt for spoiler things was a bit, well. A bit more than I expected of a sword waving, fight talking badass type of character. So. I look forward her game.

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

- I see XIII-2 and Lightning Returns as Square-Enix taking the time to figure out what players want from them. They were lambasted by many for XIII and I don't think they want to start working on XV until they know it's going to be better received. In the main series, not including sequels/prequels and MMOs, they have released just one single player numbered game in in six years. I believe these other XIII sequels/spinoffs are being made to get an understanding of the modern gamer and what they can do to please people. I think that once they have a better understanding, they will start to really push on a new game. By using XIII sequels/prequels, they can minimise costs that would be spent on concepts, design and development for monsters, worlds, lore, characters which they would have had to pay a lot for if they were to come up with a completely new game.

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While I agree with this assessment I also feel that this is kind of stupid on SE's part because the only people SE is getting feedback from are the fans who happened to feel XIII wasn't so bad, these sequels are doing nothing to appeal to fans who felt XIII was rubbish and may have lost interest in the series. I feel continuing on like this to collect data is only going to give a very skewed idea of what the fanbase as whole wants and will instead continue on making games for a niche part of the fanbase as well as losing more widespread appeal to non-fans.

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Better than risking the entire series by creating a brand new Final Fantasy game. And I think you associate all gamers with yourself perhaps too much in this instance. Some weren't very happy with XIII but still played XIII-2 and enjoyed it. Many critics throughout the internet could also easily offer them valid feedback. XIII was only loathed by a few, it was still generally liked but just not loved. I feel there were enough gamers playing XIII-2 to give a fair general assessment of things. It's a shame you won't play XIII-2 because I think you'd like it more than XIII, but having said that, I feel you have made up your mind about the game already.

Basically, SE have done the best they can in such a situation. What better alternative course of action would you suggest?

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Originally Posted by Shoden

I felt Lightning had a good bit of character in her. Why she didn't strangle Hope I still don't know, bonding to THAT like a little brother? WHY!? She should have killed him with fire. Maybe less people would hate her if she did that.
I enjoyed her hardfaced get on with it attitude but that it was a sort of escapism from guilt for spoiler things was a bit, well. A bit more than I expected of a sword waving, fight talking badass type of character. So. I look forward her game.

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Out of all of the "Serious character with a heart" stereotypes, I got Lightning the most. Perhaps it's just the superior storytelling on behalf of HD cutscenes and decent voice acting (Yeah X...) but I definitely got why she was so irritated at most things, because she had to protect Serah and had to deal with Snow, which would make anyone moody. I also understood her progression from attitude to actually caring about other people because being made a L'Cie makes you have to work together (even if it took up to chapter seven for them to get along)

As to the whole XIII business, perhaps it's because everyone is waiting on their hands for Versus XIII and any attempt at a sequel before Versus is just hated, because it isn't versus.

Merger. Whenever a company acquires another the first thing they want to do is exploit the portfolio. When Square became Square Enix, that's when X-2 happened, the first sequel, and from there it's been FFVII compilation, Ivalice Alliance, DS remakes, PSP ports, Kingdom Hearts handheld spinoffs, Dissidia and more and more Final Fantasy XIII.

It's natural for them to want to get more out of the years of work they put into making XIII, but you have to question why make it in the same universe.

I loved FFXIII and FFXIII-2, and look forward to Lightning Returns. It does seem like they're doing a "WE'RE GOING TO KEEP SHOWING THIS CHARACTER UNTIL YOU LIKE HER" thing though.

Which, I must say, is an odd response to the mixed reception FFXIII got. :p

Maybe they're waiting for next gen consoles.

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Originally Posted by charliepanayi

You can say what you like about FFVII spinoffs or FFXIII, but slating Zidane is going too far!

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This.

Zidane is smurfing king.

lightning is awesome
she's my lara croft
i'll buy anything with her in it
the only thing i was upset about in 13-2 was the terrible poems she read at the beginning of chapters, i thought they were trite and uninspired

It's good to see a lot of people agreeing.

As for all the ports of older games, I don't mind, but that's probably because the latest FF games have deviated from the original formula so much that it's good to still be able to buy classic FF style games in stores (even if they are just enhanced ports with bonus dungeons).

Another (good) point that GameFAQs members bring up, do you think that the new modern FF games have deviated from the original formula too much that they're alienating old fans? Maybe that's contributing to the "too much Lightning and FFXIII" feeling.

I haven't played any of the newer mainstream FF games (I stopped after VII since I couldn't find FFVIII and IX, and I don't own any consoles (or strong enough computers) to play FFX and onward) so I can't really talk from experience.

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

Better than risking the entire series by creating a brand new Final Fantasy game. And I think you associate all gamers with yourself perhaps too much in this instance. Some weren't very happy with XIII but still played XIII-2 and enjoyed it. Many critics throughout the internet could also easily offer them valid feedback. XIII was only loathed by a few, it was still generally liked but just not loved. I feel there were enough gamers playing XIII-2 to give a fair general assessment of things. It's a shame you won't play XIII-2 because I think you'd like it more than XIII, but having said that, I feel you have made up your mind about the game already.

Basically, SE have done the best they can in such a situation. What better alternative course of action would you suggest?

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I honestly feel I could say the same about you associating your own thoughts about the fanbase and it's feelings for XIII and the franchise as being the de facto truth. :p

To answer your question though, simply make low cost new IPs to experiment with different gamestyles and to be honest it's not like SE hasn't been trying to do this(Bravery Default Flying Fairy looks to be trying to do this) but I feel they get too stuck up on high end graphical content when making the games which is what I felt made titles like The Last Remnant and Nier not as profitable or worthwhile. I understand that placing the FF moniker on a game will probably double the amount of units sold but I feel it's damaging the series rep. It's also not like they don't have a catalog of other brands to use either, I mean KH alone could be used to test graphical capabilities for new systems and get the teams better understanding on how to really maximize quality when they turn their attention to the FF series. Making even Chrono 3 would likely guarantee high sales and even if it's complete trout, they could still use it as a guinea pig for experimentation of gameplay mechanics. They don't have to use FF, let alone XIII. It's not like Square only made FF and Enix only made Dragon Quest. They should be exploiting side series that don't have much to lose with mainstream gamers as opposed to weakening their main flagship series.

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As for Evastio's questions about alienating older fans by deviating from the formula, I feel that is kind of complicated to fully answer but I will say that I feel one major issue of the series as of late is that people like Kitase are not really looking at the demographics and have prevented the series to really grow up. I feel the series is still stuck kind of in a pre-teen/teen mindset and the series no longer tries to really take the story or characters into complex places. For a story about dealing with inevitable fate/death, I feel FFXIII really kind of treated the topic with kids gloves, same as XII with political intrigue, it's nice they are addressing these topics but I can't help but feel like I'm seeing the Hallmark Children's After School special version as opposed to something I would see in actual literature or more daring film making.

The fanbase is getting older but Kitase and others in SE are still using the model they had over a decade ago when we were pre-teens. Which is stupid because between us and the pre-teens, we have disposable income so we're a much better market to cater to than jobless thirteen year olds. I mean part of the reason why the PSX was a big deal was cause games really started to focus on more adult themes in a meaningful way but they haven't really advanced much since that initial push. Final Fantasy needs to grow up more, maybe not some grim-dark everyone dies and the heroes deal with their drug addiction but honest to goodness lost, and seeing the characters never come to terms with their problems but simply choosing to live with it and watching how that affects them and their choices. I've mentioned before that I would love to see a love story about a relationship that has already come and gone, one filled with baggage and issues but just a flicker of fire that could renew it if both characters could just overcome their personal demons with each other, instead it's two youths meeting for the first time and falling in love as they live through a series of adventures and that's been the standard since the dawn of the medium.

This is not to say I feel Kitase has to cater to older crowds exclusively, if Pixar and early animation has shown the world anything, it's that it's possible to create stories that appeal to both adults and children and can still be profound. So it's possible to keep part of the same model but I feel SE needs to start throwing older fans a few bones and trusting younger fans that they are in fact mature enough to understand that finding answers in life isn't so easy and not everything works out in the end like you want it to.

I think there has been too much Lightning. I like her and all but having three XIII games come out before the next new single-player game is too much. The issue comes from too much time between releases. If they were working on FFXIII-3 at the same time as XV or even Versus then there would be less pressure from fans.

Wolf, I think the main idea of your post that they're handling adult stories with kiddie gloves is just coming down to opinion and we'll have to agree to disagree, because I thought FFXIII did a really great job of dealing with death and evil and how people react to it in different ways, as represented by each of the characters.

But I'm especially glad we finally agree on this:

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

I mean part of the reason why the PSX was a big deal was cause games really started to focus on more adult themes in a meaningful way but they haven't really advanced much since that initial push.

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FINALLY! You're ready to admit that the evolution of storytelling started with the PSX generation!!!

Final Fantasy VII was a radical revolution.

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

To answer your question though, simply make low cost new IPs to experiment with different gamestyles and to be honest it's not like SE hasn't been trying to do this(Bravery Default Flying Fairy looks to be trying to do this) but I feel they get too stuck up on high end graphical content when making the games which is what I felt made titles like The Last Remnant and Nier not as profitable or worthwhile. I understand that placing the FF moniker on a game will probably double the amount of units sold but I feel it's damaging the series rep. It's also not like they don't have a catalog of other brands to use either, I mean KH alone could be used to test graphical capabilities for new systems and get the teams better understanding on how to really maximize quality when they turn their attention to the FF series. Making even Chrono 3 would likely guarantee high sales and even if it's complete trout, they could still use it as a guinea pig for experimentation of gameplay mechanics. They don't have to use FF, let alone XIII. It's not like Square only made FF and Enix only made Dragon Quest. They should be exploiting side series that don't have much to lose with mainstream gamers as opposed to weakening their main flagship series.

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I'm going to have to agree with Wolf here. Even if we accept that Square-Enix are using these sequels as a way to experiment so they can figure out the fanbase, there are better ways than making sequels to a game that had a reception as mixed as FFXIII. Sure, some people who didn't like it much may have given FFXIII-2 a chance, but I'm more than willing to bet that the percentage of people who didn't like FFXIII and will not play any of the sequels because of it is higher. And in the end, experimenting with new IP's to see what catches on in smaller titles is probably a better idea anyway. It's cheaper, and you aren't going to have guaranteed sales simply by carrying the FF title colouring the data.

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

I mean part of the reason why the PSX was a big deal was cause games really started to focus on more adult themes in a meaningful way but they haven't really advanced much since that initial push.

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FINALLY! You're ready to admit that the evolution of storytelling started with the PSX generation!!!

Final Fantasy VII was a radical revolution.

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Never change Bolivar. You keep beating that dead horse. :p:D

Very good, Vivi. That was the point of the joke.