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Are we really going to suggest that speed stats matter in a grudge match? I already addressed this above. Besides the difference between their speed is only 4 points (as compared to the 11-point difference between their magic power) and speed stats can be, and probably have been, modified with espers. It is trivial to make up a 4-point speed difference. A 11-point magic power difference is a bit more difficult to make up.Quote:
The only thing that matters in a fight now is speed, which Sabin wins on.
Furthermore, even if we assume speed stats do matter, we also have to assume the amount of time attacks take to pull off matters too. Even assuming a small difference in speed, Terra can swing the Ultima Weapon and she will still be finished attacking before Sabin can pull off one of his blitzes. The moment she swings the Ultima Weapon this thing is over. It is unblockable, and assuming the characters are anywhere near their peak prowess it will deal 9,999 damage. It doesn't matter what Sabin is in the middle of doing. He will be knocked out instantly.
The worst that Terra can suffer is that this ends up as a draw, with each knocking the other out at the same time.
Every character in the game is able to do a max damage physical attack though.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Man
And Sabin doesn't need to make up that full difference to hit for max. Say what you will, it is going to come down to who hits first if you start arguing stats and esper bonus's.
Terra is able to hit for max with the Ultima Weapon in a direct physical attack way before Sabin is, though (and even earlier if you count Morph). Obviously if they're both level 99 though then it pretty much comes down to who hits first.
You know, I was looking up what the earliest level you can hit max damage with Terra was, just to see what kind of HP she would have at the time. Depending, Sabin wouldn't even need to hit for max. Without any tweaking or focusing, Bum Rush can easilly hit for 5K+ when you get it.
Then I remembered this is a god damn cage match. There are no mechanics that will come into play here. FF VI has no mechanics that come into play in the realm of a cage. FF VI wasn't a game designed to pit player against player. No amount of arguing mechanics will make any sense because of this.
The thing is, certainly blitzes can hit for max damage pretty early too, but they take more time to execute than a simple physical attack, so by the time Sabin was done executing one of his blitzes, Terra would already have been able to hit him with the Ultima Weapon. And let's be face it, it's a lot harder to defend against what is essentially a smurfing lightsaber than it is to defend against swords and claws and trout. Terra can equip some pretty good armour to defend against a lot of that, but Ultima Weapon ignores physical defences.
But yeah, the problem is game mechanics don't really apply to player-to-player combat in any meaningful way, so it's kind of hard to predict for certain how a match like this would actually go. I'm still pretty sure Terra would win though, unless weapons and magic were banned (which is obviously a set of rules that favours Sabin).
It is clear to me that Terra is the more powerful of the two given that the entire first part of the story revolves around her being sought and used by two different factions in a war. Obviously, Sabin might be physically stronger, but there is more to assessing power than just physical strength.
True, but also see the big reasons why they want Terra. It's for more then her strength, they want her to awaken the other Espers for them, something they are unable to do. Both sides don't want her so much for her power, but the power she can unlock for them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roogle
To go back to the Vargas example earlier, Sabin could whithstand his attacks while the rest could not. Now, before the Man mentions his defense that 'they were just blown out of battle, not actually beaten' realize what that means. It means that they were just pushed back and went, you know what? Sabin's got this. Let's just stand around like a bunch of dicks while he handles this for us.
It's clear that Sabin is far more durable, and is shown constantly as such.
Outside of the cage, I agree with you that Terra can win. The advantage is with her. But in the cage, the gimping of her flight ends up being her demise.
That was the insurance vote.
The fact that she can awaken espers is a significant strength in itself. However, this obviously isn't the only reason both sides want her power. Again, fried fifty of the Empire's best soldiers in a few minutes.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoCrackerTrue, but also see the big reasons why they want Terra. It's for more then her strength, they want her to awaken the other Espers for them, something they are unable to do. Both sides don't want her so much for her power, but the power she can unlock for them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roogle
More that Sabin defeats him almost instantly due to the way the mechanics of the battle are set up. The battle can't possibly last more than a minute due to the fact that Vargas easily casts Condemned on the party, and it's easily possible for the party to have been blown away further than they can travel in a minute (assuming we consider the steps taken on the screen to take far more time than they are depicted as taking, which is likely since they can travel the entire length of a town in a step on the world map). And, again, Terra is not at peak form at that battle. As I have already mentioned, if Sabin is present at the Humbaba battle, he can easily get blown away just as Terra gets blown away, while Terra, in her esper form, cannot get blown away at the same battle. So if we're going to go by story-based battles, Terra shows greater prowess later in the game, which is presumably when these matches would be taking place.Quote:
To go back to the Vargas example earlier, Sabin could whithstand his attacks while the rest could not. Now, before the Man mentions his defense that 'they were just blown out of battle, not actually beaten' realize what that means. It means that they were just pushed back and went, you know what? Sabin's got this. Let's just stand around like a bunch of dicks while he handles this for us.
It's not clear at all.Quote:
It's clear that Sabin is far more durable, and is shown constantly as such.
Terra casts Ultima. Both get knocked out. Terra gets disqualified for being a smurfing idiot. Sabin wins.
Ultima doesn't hit the party? Terra would only get knocked out if she cast something like Meltdown (unless she was wearing the flame shield or something).
Except for every time the game brings up his durability.Quote:
Originally Posted by The ManThe fact that she can awaken espers is a significant strength in itself. However, this obviously isn't the only reason both sides want her power. Again, fried fifty of the Empire's best soldiers in a few minutes.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoCrackerTrue, but also see the big reasons why they want Terra. It's for more then her strength, they want her to awaken the other Espers for them, something they are unable to do. Both sides don't want her so much for her power, but the power she can unlock for them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roogle
More that Sabin defeats him almost instantly due to the way the mechanics of the battle are set up. The battle can't possibly last more than a minute due to the fact that Vargas easily casts Condemned on the party, and it's easily possible for the party to have been blown away further than they can travel in a minute (assuming we consider the steps taken on the screen to take far more time than they are depicted as taking, which is likely since they can travel the entire length of a town in a step on the world map). And, again, Terra is not at peak form at that battle. As I have already mentioned, if Sabin is present at the Humbaba battle, he can easily get blown away just as Terra gets blown away, while Terra, in her esper form, cannot get blown away at the same battle. So if we're going to go by story-based battles, Terra shows greater prowess later in the game, which is presumably when these matches would be taking place.Quote:
To go back to the Vargas example earlier, Sabin could whithstand his attacks while the rest could not. Now, before the Man mentions his defense that 'they were just blown out of battle, not actually beaten' realize what that means. It means that they were just pushed back and went, you know what? Sabin's got this. Let's just stand around like a bunch of dicks while he handles this for us.
It's not clear at all.Quote:
It's clear that Sabin is far more durable, and is shown constantly as such.
Even at the very end you see them showing off his strength during the escape. Him and Shaodw fighting in the Imperial Camp, defeating several troops on their way trough. Really, most your cast could believably, story wise, defeat fifty imperial soldiers even prior to unlocking the power of espers.
And agian in response to the Vargas fight, if you did not already know the Pummel command, it takes a while before it tells you the input, so as intended the fight isn't immediately over. Also, you can't say that Sabin was at his peak at that point either. They both went through a lot and grew a lot after this.
Sabin's durability and strength is showcased more then Terra's because they intended for him to be shown as the more durable one. Terra was showcased as the half esper magical power house.
Furthermore, the group you fight Punbaba with is shown to at least be able to stand up to him, making him retreat the first time. The second fight, it's not even Terra alone who fights him, and it won't always be Sabin blown away. If that was meant to show anything in battle, it was that Punbaba was still tough enough to be able to beat you, at which point Terra came to your aide to help you fight. The Punbaba fight never ends up being Terra Vs. Punbaba one on one.
This is in stark contrast to Sabin always being the one to withstand Vargas, and the others always being knocked out. WHen bringing up examples like this, one always needs to look at the intend behind why these things were done.
That's assuming in-game animations of fights are comparable to the way fights play out in real time, which is not necessarily the case. In-universe the number of soldiers Terra was able to defeat in such a short time is treated as a huge deal, so it's quite possible that real time is different from in-game time.Quote:
Even at the very end you see them showing off his strength during the escape. Him and Shaodw fighting in the Imperial Camp, defeating several troops on their way trough. Really, most your cast could believably, story wise, defeat fifty imperial soldiers even prior to unlocking the power of espers.
"As intended"? That's only the first time you play the game. Besides, as I said, you're the one assuming the party would even have been capable of getting back into the region of the fight within sixty seconds. If we assume that in-game steps are as large as they appear to be, then the direction they're depicted as having been blown could easily have been more time than they could traverse in such a period.Quote:
And agian in response to the Vargas fight, if you did not already know the Pummel command, it takes a while before it tells you the input, so as intended the fight isn't immediately over. Also, you can't say that Sabin was at his peak at that point either. They both went through a lot and grew a lot after this.
You're the one saying that durability means anything in a fight like this. This doesn't really do anything to counteract anything I've been saying. I'm the one saying that all Terra has to do is swing the Ultima Weapon once.Quote:
Sabin's durability and strength is showcased more then Terra's because they intended for him to be shown as the more durable one. Terra was showcased as the half esper magical power house.
It can be Terra alone who fights him if you only bring two party members, and even if you bring Sabin and two other party members there is a two in three chance that he will be blown away. Furthermore, the fight pretty clearly is intended to show how powerful Humbaba is, and what a powerhouse Terra becomes at her peak.Quote:
Furthermore, the group you fight Punbaba with is shown to at least be able to stand up to him, making him retreat the first time. The second fight, it's not even Terra alone who fights him, and it won't always be Sabin blown away. If that was meant to show anything in battle, it was that Punbaba was still tough enough to be able to beat you, at which point Terra came to your aide to help you fight. The Punbaba fight never ends up being Terra Vs. Punbaba one on one.
Too much serious.