ADB is the only correct answer here.
ADB is the only correct answer here.
Honestly, with the exception of moving around and combo bonuses, there really is not much difference between FFX-2 and FFXII's battle systems. Hell, technically FFX-2's system is simply a grossly sped up version of the original ATB system from FFIV before FFV came around and streamlined the system for players.
I like all the systems, but if I had to stick with only FFs versions of the systems, then I would say ATB is the best because the Turn Based systems have some clunky mechanics to them, CTB exists in a game that rarely made use of it and squandered its potential, and I feel ATB allows for some more flexible and inspiring game mechanics (like player input controls) that ADB just can't really implement. CSB just doesn't do anything for me, its all speed with no real substance to it in terms of strategy and control.
So ATB is my choice, if I could count RPGs in general I would say Turn Based to be honest because Press Turn system from Shin Megami Tensei III and Digital Devil Saga might be one of the best battle systems I've ever played in an RPG.
Moving around, combos, lack of battle instantiation, gambits... Yeah, not buying that one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
Unfortunately, you really can't separate X-2's mechanics from its character building. The only reason the unique fast paced ATB worked was because of the incredibly excellent implementation of the job system. That game hit a near perfect balance between focus and versatility.
Part of the reason why XIII and XIII-2's battle systems aren't as fun as X-2's is because this balance is thrown off. The battle system is too fast paced for the player to have any real input on battles. Sure, there's a command list there, but it takes so long to manually enter any multiple command chain that you'll be far better off just hitting auto-battle 99% of the time.
X-2 balanced each job exquisitely. You had enough abilities to make each job unique and useful, but not so many that controlling them was a hindrance in the fast paced battle system.
And the Garment Grid system allowed for much tighter control of the job changes than the Paradigm system.
Actually they are quite simialr in the fact that in all three games, (IV, X-2, XII) a major element of the battle system is the fact that all skills have different charge times, which is one of the reason I'll never fathom how people feel X-2's system is fast when you put into account the dressphere transformations and most of the useful skills have long charge times which slows the battles to a crawl. In all three games, it often became more important to use lower level spells over powerful abilities because you could effectively do more damage over time with simpler attacks like just the basic Fight command. There is certainly variation with all three systems like the fact that using large skills in XII has far greater benefit to the player if you understand the mechanics of the queue element of the combat system. Not to mention that you can effectively job class change in FFXII mid-battle as well. Gambits are a major element of the system but I'll simply defer to mu usual advice of the system which is that they are best suited to streamline the gameplay experiences and the amount of control given to the characters is up to the player. themselves, the system ain't jacked, its the players inability to find equilibrium with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by SkybladeMoving around, combos, lack of battle instantiation, gambits... Yeah, not buying that one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
I think X-2 is one of the fastest because even if you get a pre-emptive strike you have to be quick in inputting your commands or the enemies act before you do. And I always turn the dressphere change sequence off.
One of the biggest flaws of the combat systems of both X-2 and XII was the magic queue, IMO. You can attack infinitely as longs are you're not targeted by the only magic spell that can be cast at a time. Granted, if there was no queue it would look a bit like XIII, but it would've been better. I can't tell you how annoying it is when you can't use Sentinel in time to block things like Megaton Press or Meteor.
So I suppose FFXII and FFTactics use the same battle system as well, then? :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Wolf KannoActually they are quite simialr in the fact that in all three games, (IV, X-2, XII) a major element of the battle system is the fact that all skills have different charge times, which is one of the reason I'll never fathom how people feel X-2's system is fast when you put into account the dressphere transformations and most of the useful skills have long charge times which slows the battles to a crawl.Quote:
Originally Posted by SkybladeMoving around, combos, lack of battle instantiation, gambits... Yeah, not buying that one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
Dressphere transformations can be turned off (which I recommend, especially if you use them a lot), but I don't really feel the charge times slow things to a crawl. Between Haste and the various boosts to charge speed (Black Magic level 2 or 3, etcetera), the game winds up keeping up a good pace anyway. And, then too, the fact that you control three characters give you a lot more input in the game then you get in, say, XIII. Even with charge time, the pace of the game keeps up fairly well. At least, in my experience.
Plus, similar to Chrono Trigger, it's one of the very few games to make the "Active" part of the ATB system useful. Too often the ATB is simply turn based anyway. But the hit-stun and Chain bonuses give X-2's system a benefit to waiting. There can actually be a tactical advantage to not attacking as soon as your bar fills up.
Tactic's system is actually more close to FFX's system than XII's because FFTactic's is decidedly turn based in nature, in fact FFX's system is pretty much a tunr based system except you are notified what the turn order is. You can technically modify the turn order as well but the game puts little thought into this which is a shame. Grandia does a better job of creating a system that allows the player to affect turn order as does Nocturne, DDS, and Persona 3 and 4.
You can keep a steady pace in X-2 but it also requires building your party for speed and avoiding the overuse of high powered skills like Trigger Happy and Darkness as well as some Job Classes. The fact some spells and skills are relegated to the garmet grids, forcing you to needlessly shift job classes just to be able to cast Holy or Flare is also a huge time waster is a huge time waster, especially since casting times for these spells are also large. There are reasons why X-2 has one of the more unbalanced Job Systems in the franchise. This is pretty much keeps it in line with FFIV and XII where you're better off never using Meteor or Scathe if you want to get anything done. At least in FFXII flooding the queue with a high level spell can serve a purpose strategically. Its one of the key strategies for taking down Zodiark with fewer headaches.
X-2 is my favorite. I feel like a moron now after all that technical debate, but my reason is, I enjoyed it the most. Yep, that's it.
I consider it ATB. The ATB is my favorite. I always miss it when it's gone.
ATB. FFV's battle system is my favorite, fast battle and a lot of job classes.:p
Conditional Turn Based. Though FF10 was certainly not my favorite entry in the series I felt that the battle system was the one main thing it had going for it. I also consider the battle systems from FF10 and FFT to be more or less the same, just with the addition of movement and having ability charge times vs ability recovery times.
In all honesty aside from the gambits layered on top I didn't really see a whole lot of difference between FF12's system and plain old ATB. IMO it was functionally the same thing with some tweaks to make it look more organic when played out on the field.
Sorry about the bump. XD But honestly though, for a mainline FF entry, XII had one of the best battle system's I've ever seen. It could use some work though to make it a little less reliant on Gambits, after all.
Then again, if you look at FF AS A WHOLE, then Type-0's battle system, hands down is the best. :D
I like the active dimension battle system. Although I think FFXII's take on that type of system can be spoiled by gambit abuse. I personally try to limit gambit use to a necessary basis but the fact that you can abuse this system means that people will, and then become annoyed with the game because it "plays itself". It would have been better if your party leader's gambits deactivate to force interaction.
I like this. If the current Party Leader's gambits are turned off, then it makes things alot less automated. But then you can turn gambits off anyway. While people bemoan the gambit system, you don't have to use it.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottNUMBERS
I'm very interested in Type-0's battle system. Could someone explain it to me?
I don't so much bemoan the gambit system, but the fact that the game was so simplistic and easy that it could be easily beaten without actually playing it yourself. I don't think the gambit system itself was bad, just that it exposed how much of the game itself was busy work that could be farmed out to a computer. The problem is that there was nothing of substance left afterwards.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FormalhautI like this. If the current Party Leader's gambits are turned off, then it makes things alot less automated. But then you can turn gambits off anyway. While people bemoan the gambit system, you don't have to use it.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottNUMBERS
I'm very interested in Type-0's battle system. Could someone explain it to me?
Sure. I'm playing through it and loving it right now, so I'll take any excuse to gush.
The battle system is that of an Action RPG, closer to Kingdom Hearts than your traditional Final Fantasy (and quite possibly a preview of what we'll get in FFXV).
Movement is based around the Analog stick, and you can lock on to enemies by holding the R Button.
There are plenty of ways to actually attack, so we'll go through them now. A character's basic attack is triggered by Triangle. And every character has a different attack and combo setup, based on their unique weapons. King wields two pistols, giving him high range, but he has to stop to reload every so often. Ace wields a deck of cards, which he throws for mid-range attacks that come fast, but do little damage. And the list goes on and on. There are fifteen playable characters that I know of (Class Zero starts with thirteen members, one for each of the cards in a suit, and picks up two more after the prologue), and each wields a different weapon and fighting style. Attack speed, combos, timing, damage, attack movement (such as lunging with a sword)... These all change between characters.
Next up is special abilities. As a character attacks, they build up a gauge that can be triggered to activate the character's special moves with Circle. Again, these are unique to a character. Ace's Special (collapsed for brevity)Ace, in keeping with his card motif, summons forth a card each time you press Circle. He can summon up to four at a time (though they vanish if you're hit), and when you perform a Triangle attack with Cards out, the effect of the Cards will trigger instead of a normal attack. Which cards are out determine the effects. Red cards make the attack a heavy hitting fireball. White cards cause the attack to deal damage and freeze the enemy. Blue cards restore health instead of attacking, and Yellow restores MP (I believe, it's hard to track sometimes, and I'm not sure what Black Cards do). And if you have a mix of various cards, it will activate one of the effects and power it up (not sure of exact calculations for which effect is used, but they don't seem to combine effects, only power). Queen summons a spinning cross of magic that surrounds her and tears through enemies and heals allies while you hold the Circle Button, and until she's hit. So these vary greatly, and look as though they can be upgraded and possibly exchanged out (but, unfortunately, I can't read Japanese, so no details on that yet).
Then we get the X Button, which controls dodging and blocking. As with Kingdom Hearts, dodge when moving, block while holding still. Get used to this button, you'll use it a lot.
And, finally, the Square Button, which is used to control Magic. Each character starts with a particular spell setup, but these can be exchanged (if you can find where in the menu to change them and what to change them out with). Each spell is actually a combination of spell type and effect range. For example, Ace starts with Blizzard magic with Bomb attack range. Blizzard is an ice spell that can freeze enemies (or, y'know, just destroy them), and the Bomb range means it's a short range attack that hits every enemy in a circle around Ace. Great for when you get surrounded. Then there are other ranges like Missile (which fires homing shots), Rifle (fires straight forward but travels really, really fire), Shotgun (spreads at close range, and can hit multiple enemies and at multiple heights), and Rocket Launcher (creates a reticule for you to aim with, then travels to the target and blows up for area damage).
That's just the basics of spells though. Higher level spells, like Blizzara and Blizzaga, require you to charge the spell for a time before releasing to get the extra power. And there are unique spells like Quake and Tornado, which don't follow the normal area rules. There are also, of course, Support spells like Cure, and each character can carry one of those in addition to an attack spell. I think. I haven't figured out how to use them yet, even on characters I know have them (Queen has casted Cure on me plenty of times when AI controlled, but I haven't figured out how to cast it myself). And, finally, there's a customization system called the Alto Crystarium that can supposedly change how powerful spells are and how they work (charge speed, projectile speed, power, MP Use, range, etcetera). But, I haven't found it yet, and wouldn't understand it if I did, so we can ignore it for now. Oh, and supposedly you need a particular proficiency in a spell's element to use it on a character, but I don't know the details of that yet.
Yeah, magic's complicated.
That's it for the basics, now, on to the more advanced techniques. First, Countering (my name for it, no clue what it's actually called). As you fight while locked on to enemies, you'll occasionally notice a yellow or red reticule pop up on them. This is a Counter indicator. If you land an attack while that reticule is up, it will deal massive damage. Color is a simple indication of effectiveness. If it's Red, it means that landing an attack in that time frame will do enough damage to kill the enemy (as far as I can tell). Harder enemies have harder to hit Counter reticules. You do a lot more damage with Counters, but going for them can open you up to a lot of pain if you screw up.
Then there's the Phantoma system. When an enemy dies, if you target their corpse (or just keep targeting them), you can press an action button to rip Phantoma from their bodies. This replenishes MP, does decent damage in a small area around the corpse, and collects Phantoma which is used to level the Alto Crystarium for your spells. It's also involved with the plot, as Phantoma manipulation is one of Class Zero's specialties, and is at least part of why they can use magic even when in the field of the Crystal Jammer.
And, finally, summons. Each character apparently has a summon monster, which you can choose to summon at the cost of sacrificing (temporarily) the summoner. Not sure how effective they are, since the only one I've used is Odin (riding Sleipner this time, not a transformer), and he's part of the prologue/tutorial, so it's probably not balanced that way for the actual game. But he had the ability to charge a Zantetsuken. The longer you charge, the higher the percent chance to one hit kill things. Normal enemies were 100% very quickly. The boss? Yeah, it took a little time, but you can charge him to 100% on that boss too. Odin is a beast.
That's pretty much all I can think of off the top of my head, hopefully it gives you a little bit of a feel for the systems.