Am I going nuts...

I'm typically on Cuchulainn's side. I guess I developed a greater appreciation for Ivalice after I played Vagrant Story and a third of FF Tactics. I find XII's lack of story-driven, overwrought romance to be refreshing. The game's got it's problems, and Vaan clearly seems like he's just thrown into every cutscene after Basch (who was originally supposed to be the main character) joins the party.

Also, I'm sorry Maybee; Balthier is awesome. I feel like it's okay that he's a cocksure arrogant bastard because it balances well with the fact that unlike other characters who are cocky and arrogant (ie; Irvinne and, admittedly, my namesake), Balthier always keeps his cool and constantly has a plan. Can't really defend Fran's wardrobe though, although I can say I'd take a full-grown playboy bunny for sex appeal than a 15/17 year old girl any day (Not bashing X, just saying that while we're on the subject of fan service...).

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Originally Posted by The White Wizard of Fynn

You just listed VI twice :D

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Fudgecakes. I meant Final Fantasy IV and Final Fantasy VI

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Originally Posted by The White Wizard of Fynn

And what exactly is wrong with a level-headed supporting protagonist? Vaan is easily the most mature "lead" (yeah, I know he isn't actually one, but you get the picture) from the post-VI FFs,

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I disagree because Vaan wasn't really much of a main character at all and when Zidane stops being flirty he can he very mature and wise for his age by being unselfish and learning that the world isn't completely black/ white.
The game would of been so much better if Ashe took the lead because really she had more to do with the game than Vaan did and she was one of the games better characters.

So the game can't be the best because it's too easily flawed unlike Final Fantasy IV who had Cecil one of the best Final Fantasy male leads of all time due to his kindness and how he basically removed what he disliked about himself and therefore becoming a stronger character and being able to forgive Kain and Golbez.

And Final Fantasy VI has Terra the first female Final Fantasy lead. While she starts out confused due to basically being used as a tool by Kefka; as soon as she recovers her memory she becomes a girl of action, that beliefs that she can help save the world from Kefka due to her being born half Esper. She doesn't really back down because of what occurred to her and her parents, instead she gets up and fights back. She sometimes backs away leading to somebody like Locke or Edgar to protect her, but she was still amazing because of her determination to believe that she could do it.

Vaan ?

Derp- Derp- Derp I want to become a Sky Pirate. How old are you Fran ? Why is Fran mad about me asking what her age was ? Derp- Derp- Derp. :greenie:

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Originally Posted by The White Wizard of Fynn

if only for the fact that he is the one who influences Ashe to give up on chasing the memory of her husband and look to the future, past the Occuria's influence, not destroy Archadia and bring actual peace to the land.

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I don't think I got that far. The furthest I've gotten is Fran's home with all the bunny females from memory. But I'm glad that he begins to something. Though I still think that Cecil and Terra completely defeat Vaan when it comes to main leaders.

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Originally Posted by The White Wizard of Fynn

EDIT: Also, sadly, age is not just a number. That was meant as a joke, since I myself am not much older than you, but there are certain things that we are oblivious to until we are older. Thus, our tastes get refined once we get older. Still not saying everyone will like XII once they age, though :D

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Sort of true ? I hated Final Fantasy VI when I was younger due to always being stuck on the dungeons like ZoZo and That Floating Continent and also the huge downgrade on graphics. But these days Final Fantasy VI and I are like best friends.

But I've tried and played Final Fantasy XII many times, many different ages, always getting older and still always hate it no many times I've wanted too or tried or anything. It's not my cup of tea and I don't see what it's lovers see in it and holding it higher than Final Fantasy games like Final Fantasy 4 and Final Fantasy 6 baffle me. Really ? Really ?!!

Okay then. You need to go see a Doctor asap. :greenie:

I mean Final Fantasy XII

: Has no decent Main Lead
: Characters feel dry, empty minus a short few like Larsa and Ashe. Most of the mains feel like tag-alongs
: System that doesn't award you for using it, instead punishes you by beginning to hold your hand then do all the work for you.
: Dry, empty storyline.
: Nothing really fun or exciting that makes you wake up per say. Example FF VII's Gold Saucer, Motorbike Chase etc.
: Terrible Villain Vayne. This is the series that has created Villains like Kuja, Kefka and Paramecia.

Each Final Fantasy game has flaws even masterpieces like FF 6 but FF 12 has too many important drawbacks to imo back it crowing King of the series. I barely just hold it above Final Fantasy II let alone even making it into the good-games list.

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Originally Posted by Edge7

Also, I'm sorry Maybee; Balthier is awesome. I feel like it's okay that he's a cocksure arrogant bastard because it balances well with the fact that unlike other characters who are cocky and arrogant (ie; Irvinne and, admittedly, my namesake), Balthier always keeps his cool and constantly has a plan.

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You can still be like that and not act you're the second coming of Jesus you know.

Example Auron, Zidane, Edgar. While they were soft of confident they didn't have a ego that would put Kayne West to shame. :greenie:

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Originally Posted by Edge7

Can't really defend Fran's wardrobe though, although I can say I'd take a full-grown playboy bunny for sex appeal than a 15/17 year old girl any day (Not bashing X, just saying that while we're on the subject of fan service...).

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Yuna and Rikku do age and get older though.

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Originally Posted by maybee

I disagree because Vaan wasn't really much of a main character at all and when Zidane stops being flirty he can he very mature and wise for his age by being unselfish and learning that the world isn't completely black/ white.
The game would of been so much better if Ashe took the lead because really she had more to do with the game than Vaan did and she was one of the games better characters.

So the game can't be the best because it's too easily flawed unlike Final Fantasy IV who had Cecil one of the best Final Fantasy male leads of all time due to his kindness and how he basically removed what he disliked about himself and therefore becoming a stronger character and being able to forgive Kain and Golbez.

And Final Fantasy VI has Terra the first female Final Fantasy lead. While she starts out confused due to basically being used as a tool by Kefka; as soon as she recovers her memory she becomes a girl of action, that beliefs that she can help save the world from Kefka due to her being born half Esper. She doesn't really back down because of what occurred to her and her parents, instead she gets up and fights back. She sometimes backs away leading to somebody like Locke or Edgar to protect her, but she was still amazing because of her determination to believe that she could do it.

Vaan ?

Derp- Derp- Derp I want to become a Sky Pirate. How old are you Fran ? Why is Fran mad about me asking what her age was ? Derp- Derp- Derp. :greenie:

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Oh, there's you're problem. You see Vaan as the lead. You control vaan, but he is not the lead of the story. Vaan is a character that was thrown into the fray against his will and his reactions are quite realistic in my eyes.
But he is not the lead.
One could argue that Ashe is the lead, or that balthier is, or basche... it's all up to your interpretation. All of the characters in this game have deep well-developed arcs that are well written and well done. Vaan may be purely along for the ride, but he matures greatly as the story goes on and he turns into quite the likable character. The only character who kind of feels out of place is penelo, but she's there to watch after vaan so it still makes sense.

Also, I would like it if you would stop calling people "insane" or telling them to "see a doctor". I feel like it discredits your arguments and makes it far more difficult for me to take you seriously. You don't have to, but I would greatly appreciate it.


ALSO, I loved Vayne as a villain. He tackled things from a primarily political standpoint, and I found that to be extremely refreshing. His dialogue is also so good. I found him threatening not because he could cast really powerful magics, but because he was a man with an insane amount of influence and he was being manipulated/led astray.
One could argue that seymour was very similar... but I just never found him to be that great of a villain honestly. His character design/voice/stupid relationship with yuna made me lose all care with him as a character. I was more scared of his boss fights than his influence. But again, that's just my taste.

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Originally Posted by TrollHunter

Oh, there's you're problem. You see Vaan as the lead. You control vaan, but he is not the lead of the story. Vaan is a character that was thrown into the fray against his will and his reactions are quite realistic in my eyes.
But he is not the lead.
One could argue that Ashe is the lead, or that balthier is, or basche... it's all up to your interpretation. All of the characters in this game have deep well-developed arcs that are well written and well done. Vaan may be purely along for the ride, but he matures greatly as the story goes on and he turns into quite the likable character. The only character who kind of feels out of place is penelo, but she's there to watch after vaan so it still makes sense.

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I find that as a bit of excuse for one of Final Fantasy XII's main fails and faults. If it was meant to be through Vaan's eyes or POV that would of made it more that way or in that design. Example the Driving Car Games were you don't see the driver just see what is in front of you, you just see the world through what is meant to be the drivers eyes.

No they made Vaan for fanservice reasons. They believed that the game would sell better if they had a character aimed towards the young female fangirls. Hence why they removed the originally planned lead for Vaan.

Vaan is the lead. Sorry. Square- Enix made him the lead to make FF XII more attractive to the fangirls. It worked well in Japan were Vaan is loved, however America/ Europe/ Aus/ NZ not so much.

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Originally Posted by TrollHunter

Also, I would like it if you would stop calling people "insane" or telling them to "see a doctor". I feel like it discredits your arguments and makes it far more difficult for me to take you seriously. You don't have to, but I would greatly appreciate it.

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I was joking but alright.

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Originally Posted by TrollHunter

ALSO, I loved Vayne as a villain. He tackled things from a primarily political standpoint, and I found that to be extremely refreshing. His dialogue is also so good. I found him threatening not because he could cast really powerful magics, but because he was a man with an insane amount of influence and he was being manipulated/led astray.

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He did nothing really towards the game. He didn't really threaten the heroes or Vaan much or even be a threat towards the heroes or Vaan. He just sat down on his chair, did a few speeches and that's it. Dr Cid made more of a impact. To be a good badguy you have to be a good threat towards the main character and his/her friends. Hence why Kefka and Sephiroth are so beloved because they really try and wrestle and break down Cloud and Terra. Vayne could of been a NPC and nothing much would of changed.

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Originally Posted by TrollHunter

One could argue that seymour was very similar... but I just never found him to be that great of a villain honestly. His character design/voice/stupid relationship with yuna made me lose all care with him as a character. I was more scared of his boss fights than his influence. But again, that's just my taste.

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Seymour was actually a good threat towards Tidus and Yuna though. Seymour was actually a decent Villain, not the best, but good enough. However nobody respects him like Kuja because of his more aimed at the Eastern players character design.

But vayne was a good threat towards them. He was a threat towards their entire COUNTRY. You're looking at the villain from too much of a "villain appears shoots them with lightning and runs off laughing" type of villain. Vayne isnt like that. He works behind the scenes and manipulates those with power to get his way. He's a man looking for war and conquest, he doesnt have time to stalk and follow the rag-tag group on his own. Hell, if he showed up in person a lot I'd see that as out of character. A villain doesn't need a bunch of boss-fights to be good.

And I know you were joking, but I still see it as a tasteless and unfunny joke.

Vaan was made to be the relate-able rebellious teenage lead. For some he succeeded, for others he failed. While his character design was questionable, I found his character endearing. He was extremely naive, and I think they played it well. He let his emotions carry him too much at first, but he grew a LOT as the game went on. So, hell, even if we want to consider him the lead he isn't that bad at all.
As it stands, I consider Ashe the lead. She does much of the leading, and she is extremely essential to the plot as well. Her character was handled beautifully, and the ONLY criticism I have for her is the mini-skirt which I found to be quite silly.

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Originally Posted by TrollHunter

But vayne was a good threat towards them. He was a threat towards their entire COUNTRY. You're looking at the villain from too much of a "villain appears shoots them with lightning and runs off laughing" type of villain. Vayne isnt like that. He works behind the scenes and manipulates those with power to get his way. He's a man looking for war and conquest, he doesnt have time to stalk and follow the rag-tag group on his own. Hell, if he showed up in person a lot I'd see that as out of character. A villain doesn't need a bunch of boss-fights to be good.

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I disagree because you can still be a threat to the whole country and still be interesting example Kefka. He managed to waltz in between being a threat towards Terra, Celes etc and yet managed to damage the world and even keep the whole world under his thumb per say.

Again DR Cid did a million times better job of playing the badguy role.

Paramecia- Did some background evil like Vayne, but the game drew him into focus and made him a threat to the heroes and Firion

Golbez- Again did background work, but the game drew him in and made sure that Cecil and him met each other and the game made damn sure that Cecil had a good reason to despise him and then later forgive.

Ex-Death- Again background work, then was free from his prison and again made sure that he was a threat towards Bartz and the group. Again the game made damn sure that Bartz loathed his tree-like guts.

Kefka- Already explained.

Sephiroth- Was pretty important to Cloud's character by making sure that Cloud and Seph sort of knew each other, made sure that Seph had a reason to despise Cloud and view him as nothing but a doll used for his evil plans, and the fear/ hate Cloud has for Sephiroth

Ulti- Spends 90 per cent of the game in the background however she's still a threat with Squall and Rinoa by the people that she uses and Rinoa, Squall's lover. You only in person met her once but by using other people Squall hates her and she's made a impact. Maybe not the best, but more interesting than Vayne.

Kuja- Don't really met him to the end of CD 1 and Zidane and Kuja don't really speak to each other in person till the very end of CD 2 so it takes about two discs for Zidane and Kuja to met and chat to each other and yet Zidane already hates his guts by what he's done to the world and his friends.

Seymour- Met him in Luca and we are made to feel unsure about his character ( even though most FF players know that he's no good when we first meet the guy) starts being a threat by making Yuna feel really uncomfortable and then later the whole Marriage Arc. Becomes a interesting villain by wanting to use Yuna's naive nature to gain his goals. After the Marriage Arc Seymour still is a impact by using his Zombie like status to try and gain control of the world and wanting to use Sin to again, gain control of the world.

And Vayne ?

Stays in the background pretty much, makes a couple of evil ha-ha speeches and then final boss and yeah; ending plays as watched through a YouTube Lets Play.

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Originally Posted by TrollHunter

And I know you were joking, but I still see it as a tasteless and unfunny joke.

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Fair enough though I am sort of annoyed because FF VIII gets treated like a piece of trash that came out of the rubbish bin by most Forum members here. Notice the " Emo Love Story " I know that's a FF VIII insult.

I'm just sick of it. Even the thread I made that was designed to be protected by all the hate that game gets here got attacked by hate. So I am very annoyed that this forum adores to place FF XII on a pedestal and yet enjoy kicking FF VIII in the balls. Like FF XII fine, dislike FF VIII fine. But act like it's the God of all games and act like FF VIII is a bowl of spew junk; no that's annoying.

So hence the passive-aggressiveness.

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Originally Posted by TrollHunter

Vaan was made to be the relate-able rebellious teenage lead. For some he succeeded, for others he failed. While his character design was questionable, I found his character endearing. He was extremely naive, and I think they played it well. He let his emotions carry him too much at first, but he grew a LOT as the game went on. So, hell, even if we want to consider him the lead he isn't that bad at all.

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Fair enough. I'm not saying that you can't like the man, just saying that Imo he was terrible and since Tidus is getting so much bashing here, again I was annoyed. Because imo Tidus doesn't deserve all the bashing that he gets, and at least he had decent character development unlike Vaan who was quite empty in compassion. Tidus felt human, Vaan just felt like he was half there and was missing alot of character growth and personality. Okay he does grow, but not as much as say Cloud or Squall or Cecil or Zidane. Even Lightning has some decent growth as she changes to a aggressive ex-Solider to a more calm and understandable warrior.

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Originally Posted by TrollHunter

As it stands, I consider Ashe the lead. She does much of the leading, and she is extremely essential to the plot as well. Her character was handled beautifully, and the ONLY criticism I have for her is the mini-skirt which I found to be quite silly.

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Agree

Golbez - As much as I love FFIV they REALLY overused the mind-control gimmick and I found that more frustrating than anything else. He was still a decent villain though.

Though I will concede for the most part. I was arguing at roughly 4am, so I wasn't really making the best points. Though that doesnt mean I'm done here.

Vayne actually made some pretty interesting speeches, and especially his first one in dalmasca doesn't even paint him like a bad guy at all.
Final Fantasy XII - Vayne Solidor Speech - YouTube

And here's a great video showing the 3 main "villains" Cid vayne and venat who I'm really starting to see as the real villain. It's been a long time since I've played FFXII, so I apologize.
Final Fantasy 12 - Vayne Meets Venat - YouTube

Here's a scene with vayne and the emperor
Final Fantasy 12 - Vayne And The Emperor Gramis - YouTube

Here's one where the judges talk about vayne, and some pretty interesting backstory is revealed.
Final Fantasy 12 - The Judges - YouTube

Vayne isn't really shown as a serious badguy until you hear some backstory and analyze his character a bit. He forgoes many common villainous tropes (though he does still have others) and becomes something great in my opinion.
I still really enjoyed vayne, and I find him to be quite a deep character.

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Originally Posted by TrollHunter

Golbez - As much as I love FFIV they REALLY overused the mind-control gimmick

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The game came out in 1991 so the mind control gimmick was a bit more fresh so imo it's forgivable. And it's only Kain and Theodore that get controlled.

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Originally Posted by TrollHunter

Though I will concede for the most part. I was arguing at roughly 4am, so I wasn't really making the best points. Though that doesnt mean I'm done here

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Fair enough

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Originally Posted by TrollHunter

Vayne isn't really shown as a serious badguy until you hear some backstory and analyze his character a bit. He forgoes many common villainous tropes (though he does still have others) and becomes something great in my opinion.
I still really enjoyed vayne, and I find him to be quite a deep character.

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Fair enough though I still find him to a bore and a terrible badguy. He's basically Seymour; while easier to take seriously he enjoys playing with the minds of the country acting as the good guy when really he's not. It's been done before and better minus his character design by Seymour. Then again Vayne looks dreadful too, it looks like he really, really needs a haircut.

Final Fantasy XII has an engrossing backstory, a richly detailed world, some very interesting characters, a new and mostly successful battle system for an offline RPG, vibrant graphics and sound, and a very unique scope of plot. For the last point, I mean you get the sense that you're not the only interesting group of people in the world doing things, which I think was unprecedented in Final Fantasy and most other RPGs. There are machinations constantly working for and against your goals that have significance for ambitions other than your party's. I think the scope was probably the most distinguished and involving characteristic of the game, and the primary thing that most people think sets it apart.

All that said, one serious flaw, and I mean game-breaking, is the lack of rhythm in the plot. Yeah, the basic premise is set up, and there are problems, complications, and goals, but the plot rarely feels cohesive. Certain large parts of the game drag. New characters and enemies come and go without any emotional attachment, and objectives usually feel like chores rather than having significance to the story. I feel partially ashamed but mostly justified in saying that I never finished it. It had everything but narrative momentum.

I felt like the entire game was a chore. I was excited about it when I heard about it all. I was happy about the new battle system and was eager to try it out.

Here's where I find problems. These are just my opinions, so yeah.

I didn't like the lack of a DEFINED main character. Yes, there were candidates to be main character but the fact there is no defined main character annoys me. You can have story development on all your characters and still have one person as the leader.

I didn't like the story. It had, as comma very well put it, no rhythm. The characters would accomplish something and announce the next step of their plan and then I would think "Okay, why are we doing this?"

I didn't like that the side-quests were so involved in the main plot. It's in the name: SIDE-quests. They should be something you do optionally. On the side. If you wanted to succeed at this game, you more or less HAD to go on hunts.

Basically, my biggest problem with the game (and with Final Fantasy on the whole now) is the fact that they are straying from the formula that made them famous. Look back at the other games. Final Fantasy VII. Were the graphics good? Not particularly. Was the story good? Phenomenal! Final Fantasy IV. Graphics? Basic. Story. Engaging and gripping. IX. Graphics? A step back from VIII to be sure. Story? Amazing. The J-RPG was about the story, not the graphics. Nowadays, they've made it too much about breaking graphical grounds than about the story. Sure, XII and XIII looked amazing but the story and characters are soooooo forgettable.

Also, best character in XII is CLEARLY Gabranth.

And now a fun fact: I bought XII on day one. I still haven't completed it. (Not aided by the fact that my PS2 is broken. But I'd replace it for Kingdom Hearts first, over XII.)

Good God I don't know who has time to read such long posts

Final Fantasy XII is good!

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Originally Posted by Spooniest

Good God I don't know who has time to read such long posts

Final Fantasy XII is good!

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Good? Yes. Great? No. Groundbreaking? Not really.

Best game in the series? Definitely not.

Why does everyone have to be such an extremist?

It's a good game! Isn't that enough?

I'm not being an extremist. I already admitted that I think it's good. I just don't believe it to be deserving of the praise that others might give it.

All games have their good and bad points. And everyone has different tastes. Everyone wants to see different things from the series. But as the old adage goes...

"You can please some of the people some of the time; all of the people some of the time; some of the people all of the time, but you can never please all of the people all of the time."

Now, pardon me, while I go wait for Project Phoenix to get finished.

I'm bugged out tonight.

trout's pretty bleak around here.