Continuing the P3/Canon discussion

Oh God, feminist agenda? Really, man? You have no idea how big an issue female representation in media is. Whenever I hear something like this, I just... Bah!

On topic, there's something called the death of the author. No matter what they say, once the story's out there, it's out there and they have no more influence on what it is, regardless of sequels. In my eyes both the male and female path are canon, just not in the same universe. I see them as two sides of the same coin where one cannot exist if the other does, but the world they inhabit is basically the same. Their different perspectives on different characters are both valid, because just because one protagonist gets to know a different side of a character than the other, it doesn't mean that character trait doesn't exist in the other universe. Yukari is more forward and nice towards the FeMC, but that doesn't mean she can't be a bit nagging at times. And even if Akihiko's or Shinjiro's softer side surfaces when with Minako, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist in Minato's world. The outcome is always the same, we just get different angles on certain characters, so why can't both be canon?

Also, I don't get you guys hating these characters. The writing in this game is top-notch. We get to spend so much time with these characters and get to know them so close, we get to see how real and layered they are. After all that, I could never bring myself to hate them, 'cause the game really made me feel like they were my family?

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Originally Posted by Bright Shield

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It's like arguing that in Mass Effect, the canon story is that Wrex dies, because that's what happens when you start up Mass Effect 2 with a new game.

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Not the same thing at all. Mass Effect lets you transfer over your choices, and adjusts the story accordingly. If they make a Mass Effect 4 and it follows a certain Mass Effect 3 ending no matter what, then that particular ending was canon.

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Ok then. Let's look at another point. Your decision to clear the Consort's name of the framing charges in Mass Effect 1 does not properly transfer to Mass Effect 2 (one of several decisions that is glitched in the transfer). Does this mean that it is "canon" that, no matter which choice you made, Shepherd never helped Shai'ira?

Because otherwise you have to realize that technical issues can adjust the story, without actually affecting canon. That an inability to transfer save files and take your decisions into account does not invalidate those decisions. We already know that system limitations are responsible for things like P3P not getting The Answer, and not being able to load your save file from P3 or FES into P3P, so what else might have been decided as impossible or impractical because of technical restrictions?

The story you play is the canon. ATLUS moves the story forward in the best way they could. They had to make a decision one way or the other, but that doesn't mean that they are disallowing the choices of fans of the other side.

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Originally Posted by Bright Shield

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Canon-wise it doesn't really matter if you can select between male or female if the main story of the game plays out the exact same for both. At the same time, it brings more replay value, and an option for people to choose a gender that they might more easily identify with. After all, there is quite a bit of female gamers in the world these days, and while I'm sure not all of them care if they control a male or a female, I am sure that a lot of them would like to at least have the option in a world where they most of the time have no choice but to play a guy.

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If that alone can stop someone from enjoying a game, then they were never interested in it to begin with. To be honest, that sounds more like a feminist agenda than anything.

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No one has said anything about anyone being unable to enjoy a game for that reason. Now you're putting words in my mouth. There are however degrees to enjoyment. Many people would like to be able to see alternative perspectives of the same story, and when it doesn't notably affect the grand scheme of things, why is it a bad thing to add? Personally, there's not a "feminist agenda" to my suggestion of this. Personally, I am just tired of always seeing the male perspective of almost everything. It's boring, really. I'm a guy, I already have a pretty good grasp of how male life is. I do however not have nearly as good a grasp of how female life is, so that sparks my curiousity. Half the people I can interact with in the real world happen to be females, being able to understand them better certainly wouldn't hurt, right?

The fact that women are underrepresented as main heroes in games and other popular media is however still an actual thing, and there's certainly nothing wrong in trying to bring a bit of balance there either.

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Like him or not, the insult itself sounds like something a third grader would say.

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I always took it as more of a culture thing than anything. Although, I'm not sure what she says in Japanese, so I'm not positive.

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Oh God, feminist agenda? Really, man?

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If someone cannot fully enjoy a game because the main character is male, then they are a part of the feminist agenda. Not to mention sexist.

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You have no idea how big an issue female representation in media is. Whenever I hear something like this, I just... Bah!

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For a second there you almost made me forget about Terra, Lara Croft, Shion, Claire Redfield, Jill Valentine, Bayonetta, Chris Lightfellow, Maya Amano, Samus Aran, Aya Brea, Lyndis, Eirika, Millia, Cornet etc.

There's literally hundreds if not thousands of female leads in gaming alone.

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In my eyes both the male and female path are canon, just not in the same universe.

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Yes, but one path is the official canon which Atlus has chosen to follow and add upon, and the other is a fantasy alternate reality. Canon refers to the official path, and only the official path.

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The outcome is always the same, we just get different angles on certain characters, so why can't both be canon?

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Contradicting paths can never both be canon. Just like in Knights of the Old Republic. (SPOILER)Bioware confirmed that male Lightside Revan is canon.

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Also, I don't get you guys hating these characters. The writing in this game is top-notch. We get to spend so much time with these characters and get to know them so close, we get to see how real and layered they are. After all that, I could never bring myself to hate them, 'cause the game really made me feel like they were my family?

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Expecting people to like every character in the game is rather strange. I've never liked the entire cast in any game/movie/anime etc. There's always someone I despise; usually more than 1 person.

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Ok then. Let's look at another point. Your decision to clear the Consort's name of the framing charges in Mass Effect 1 does not properly transfer to Mass Effect 2 (one of several decisions that is glitched in the transfer). Does this mean that it is "canon" that, no matter which choice you made, Shepherd never helped Shai'ira?

Because otherwise you have to realize that technical issues can adjust the story, without actually affecting canon. That an inability to transfer save files and take your decisions into account does not invalidate those decisions. We already know that system limitations are responsible for things like P3P not getting The Answer, and not being able to load your save file from P3 or FES into P3P, so what else might have been decided as impossible or impractical because of technical restrictions?

The story you play is the canon. ATLUS moves the story forward in the best way they could. They had to make a decision one way or the other, but that doesn't mean that they are disallowing the choices of fans of the other side.

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This doesn't really apply to the P3 MC, since later material confirmed him and The Answer, as the true canon path. You've provided an explanation as to why P3P didn't include the answer, but that doesn't change the fact that The Answer is confirmed as canon in later material.

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No one has said anything about anyone being unable to enjoy a game for that reason. Now you're putting words in my mouth. There are however degrees to enjoyment.

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If someone likes a game, they'll enjoy it about the same regardless if the hero is male or female.

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Many people would like to be able to see alternative perspectives of the same story, and when it doesn't notably affect the grand scheme of things, why is it a bad thing to add?

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Never said it was bad, just non canon.

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The fact that women are underrepresented as main heroes in games and other popular media is however still an actual thing, and there's certainly nothing wrong in trying to bring a bit of balance there either.

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Again, this is just plain wrong. There are literally hundreds of thousands of female leads if you include all media.

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Originally Posted by Bright Shield

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Ok then. Let's look at another point. Your decision to clear the Consort's name of the framing charges in Mass Effect 1 does not properly transfer to Mass Effect 2 (one of several decisions that is glitched in the transfer). Does this mean that it is "canon" that, no matter which choice you made, Shepherd never helped Shai'ira?

Because otherwise you have to realize that technical issues can adjust the story, without actually affecting canon. That an inability to transfer save files and take your decisions into account does not invalidate those decisions. We already know that system limitations are responsible for things like P3P not getting The Answer, and not being able to load your save file from P3 or FES into P3P, so what else might have been decided as impossible or impractical because of technical restrictions?

The story you play is the canon. ATLUS moves the story forward in the best way they could. They had to make a decision one way or the other, but that doesn't mean that they are disallowing the choices of fans of the other side.

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This doesn't really apply to the P3 MC, since later material confirmed him and The Answer, as the true canon path. You've provided an explanation as to why P3P didn't include the answer, but that doesn't change the fact that The Answer is confirmed as canon in later material.

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I wasn't saying that The Answer was non-canon, I'm saying that the fact that the games are restricted to only showing a single route for the story is not indicative of only that route being canon. No, the games do not take into account everything you do, or every decision you make. That is not ATLUS saying that your story was invalid, that your experiences didn't really happen in the game's story. That's simply ATLUS working within the technical limitations of gaming.

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I wasn't saying that The Answer was non-canon, I'm saying that the fact that the games are restricted to only showing a single route for the story is not indicative of only that route being canon. No, the games do not take into account everything you do, or every decision you make. That is not ATLUS saying that your story was invalid, that your experiences didn't really happen in the game's story. That's simply ATLUS working within the technical limitations of gaming.

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That's the problem. Canon can only follow 1 path by it's very definition.

As of right now, we don't know the exact canon path for Persona 3 or 4. However, the male MC and The Answer are confirmed canon. These two things have been confirmed, and cannot be argued. The true endings for both games have also been confirmed as canon.

Other things such as how you did in school, which social links you completed, and who you dated, are left ambiguous on purpose(although Yukari as the main love interest is heavily implied in The Answer).

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Originally Posted by Bright Shield

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I wasn't saying that The Answer was non-canon, I'm saying that the fact that the games are restricted to only showing a single route for the story is not indicative of only that route being canon. No, the games do not take into account everything you do, or every decision you make. That is not ATLUS saying that your story was invalid, that your experiences didn't really happen in the game's story. That's simply ATLUS working within the technical limitations of gaming.

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That's the problem. Canon can only follow 1 path by it's very definition.

As of right now, we don't know the exact canon path for Persona 3 or 4. However, the male MC and The Answer are confirmed canon. These two things have been confirmed, and cannot be argued. The true endings for both games have also been confirmed as canon.

Other things such as how you did in school, which social links you completed, and who you dated, are left ambiguous on purpose(although Yukari as the main love interest is heavily implied in The Answer).

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So, since canon can only have one valid path, I guess you're saying that Wrex surviving Mass Effect actually isn't canon. It can't be canon that he died and canon that he lived. That's two different paths, and only one "by definition" is possible, right?

The entire point of putting choices in games is that it gives the player control over the story. If there was only one route to take, only one linear route for the story, then there is no point to having a choice.

The PA voice telling you that the train is pulling into Iwotodai station? That's an example of a single canon event. It doesn't matter what the player does, it always plays out the same way.

Whether the main character says "hi" to Yukari when they first meet, or whether the main character asks her why she has a gun? Which of those is canon depends on what choices you make.

If you want an example of something non-canon in the games, look to Persona 4 Arena. The bonus side stories, like the one where Yukiko obsesses over the boxed lunch and poisons everyone, or the one where Chie beats up everyone for a beef bowl? Those are non-canon. Stories that are declared to be outside the continuity of the game and series. The rest of the events? They're all canon, even though some of them are mutually exclusive.

I've played both FES and P3P, and in my opinion P3P is the superior version. Taking out walking around doesn't subtract much. The only real loss is the cutscenes. I doubt anyone will argue against the female protagonist being more interesting and better written than the male protagonist.

I didn't enjoy the answer, so my view might be skewed.


Skyblade: That's not a fair comparison with ME. The whole point of ME is that the canon is what you make of it, a common theme among WRPG's. For example, in skyrim, do you join the Dark Brotherhood, or do you destroy them?
In DAO, (SPOILER)do you die, or do you give Morigan the power to rule the world?
Do you support Alistair, or do you become the king?

In Fallout NV, the side you support becomes the canon. Future games aren't going to mess with it.

Persona 3 is JRPG with only one path, and in the basic game, only one ending.
Persona 4 has several endings, but only one TRUE ending.

The canon for P3 is set in stone, and the only difference is your attitude, your gender, and who you date if any.

Both the Shin Megami Tensei games and the Persona games are very heavy on player choice. It's an incredibly important part of both the stories and the gameplay. Heck, Persona would suffer more for having dialogue options removed than Mass Effect would.

Is the story more scripted? Honestly, I don't think so. You still have just as many options in side quests and content that isn't part of the main story. Your decisions still change the people you interact with, how they relate to you or their own problems, and the main stories of both are beyond your input except for a couple of key decisions.

Even if it were more scripted, so what? It's still interactive storytelling. Go play Golden Sun (seriously, do so, it's a brilliant game). That's a linear story without player choice. Look at how few options you get, and look at how many of them require you to choose a particular answer in order to proceed, or steal your answer away if you don't make the one the game wants.

Persona is a game based on choice. The entire Social Link system is driven by choice. One of the biggest themes of the story is choosing the path of your life in the face of a looming fate. The choices you make determine the course of your story. That is why they are there.

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So, since canon can only have one valid path, I guess you're saying that Wrex surviving Mass Effect actually isn't canon. It can't be canon that he died and canon that he lived. That's two different paths, and only one "by definition" is possible, right?

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Indeed, only one path can be canon. However, since the story changes depending on player choice, we don't know which path was canon or even if a particular path was canon. The only way to know for sure in ME is for Bioware to confirm an official path, either by statement, or by a sequel following a certain path.

It's possible for there not to be a canon path in some games. However, it's not possible for there to be more than 1 canon, since that goes against what canon means.

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The entire point of putting choices in games is that it gives the player control over the story. If there was only one route to take, only one linear route for the story, then there is no point to having a choice.

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Yeah, you can influence YOUR story. However, you can't influence the official path. Assuming later material confirms a canon path.

For example, I'll use FF7 again. I didn't recruit Vincent on my first play through. Canon-wise he joined the party though.

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The PA voice telling you that the train is pulling into Iwotodai station? That's an example of a single canon event. It doesn't matter what the player does, it always plays out the same way.

Whether the main character says "hi" to Yukari when they first meet, or whether the main character asks her why she has a gun? Which of those is canon depends on what choices you make.

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The canon path for the second event is simply unconfirmed. As of right now, we don't know what he said. However, if Atlus makes a sequel, and they show a flashback of the MC saying "hi", then that was the canon choice.

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The rest of the events? They're all canon, even though some of them are mutually exclusive.

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Again, it's not possible for two contradictory events to be canon. There's two endings to P3, and only the one where you choose to fight is canon. As later material confirmed.

Yeah, not really.

Canon.

Nothing about any definition I have ever seen restricts canonicity to a single timeline. Good luck applying that definition to Doctor Who, or, for that matter, any series with multiple dimensions/worlds. Such as, say, Persona.

Canon simple refers to the veracity of material with respect to author intent. Every story in Persona 4 Arena is canon, despite the fact that they are all self contradictory. Except for Chie's quest for the beef bowl or Yukiko's box lunch fiasco, which were specifically excluded from the canon.

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Canon simple refers to the veracity of material with respect to author intent.

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Ugh... fine then call it "the timeline that Atlus is following". Which is all I'm getting at.

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Every story in Persona 4 Arena is canon, despite the fact that they are all self contradictory.

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Again, not possible. Atlus can only follow 1 path in the sequels. That path is the canon path.

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Originally Posted by Bright Shield

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Canon simple refers to the veracity of material with respect to author intent.

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Ugh... fine then call it "the timeline that Atlus is following". Which is all I'm getting at.

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Every story in Persona 4 Arena is canon, despite the fact that they are all self contradictory.

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Again, not possible. Atlus can only follow 1 path in the sequels. That path is the canon path.

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Sure they can. Let me give you an example of what they can, and probably will, do.

Yu Narukami's story is almost certainly going to have actually happened. He'll have won the tournament, saved Labrys, etcetera. However, the events in the other character's stories will have happened as well. Naoto will still have delivered her report on Mitsuru and the Shadow Operatives. Even though, if we do take Yu's as the "official" path, Naoto would have lost earlier, been stuck sitting in one place, and never have gotten the interaction with Mitsuru that wound up driving the conclusions in her report. Chie is still going to look up to Akihiko as a mentor and guide. Even though, again, unless she actually was the champion in the tournament, she would not have had enough interaction with Akihiko to form that relationship. All of the events of the story will have happened, even though the events do contradict each other.

Also, your point wasn't that there was a single timeline that ATLUS was following, but rather that anything that wasn't being directly carried over or expanded upon in later games wasn't worth playing. That because in Persona 4 Arena and Persona Q, the main character of Persona 3 is male, the female main character story doesn't count. Similarly, I guess, Marie's story in Persona 4 Golden doesn't matter, since she wasn't mentioned, nor were any of the events in her story. I guess we can assume that Yu didn't max the Social Links with any of the Investigation Team, since none of them had their final Personas in Persona 4 Arena (even Teddy, who you have to max to beat the game). I guess that Yu didn't romance anyone, since there is no romantic indications given in any of his interactions in Persona 4 Arena. I guess you should just play Persona 4 without forming Social Links with any of your team, without getting a girlfriend, without exploring any of Persona 4 Golden's extra content. And I guess you can't really play Persona 4 Arena at all, since all the stories contradict each other and you can't find a single timeline in there to follow.

I actually don't care if a particular detail in one game doesn't end up canon. I still think they matter, and I would say most game developers seem to agree with me. There are tons of things in lots of games that might or might not end up as canon later. Just because only one character in Tekken 6 ends up canonically winning according to tekken 7 doesn't mean seeing all the other character's endings was pointless. They were still fun and gave some insight about their characters, even if they didn't end up winning. Even if there was revealed a Fallout 3 official canon where the main character didn't kill everyone in Tranquility Lane, that doesn't mean that whole subquest was worthless and unimportant.

You (Bright Shield, that is) seem to be extremely focused on what is canon and not, and it seems to me that you think the only content in a game that matters is the content that later ends up canon (but excuse me if I mistaken about this). I'm not going to argue against you on there being only one official canon, because I don't actually disagree with that (unless something crazy is going on, like the writers revealing that both stories happened, but in different dimensions or whatever). I just don't think canon/noncanon is that big an issue in games where you can play things out differently each time. Even if not canon, these things often show "what if" scenarios in whichever games you're playing, and even if "Character X" canonically didn't get a chance to do "Action Y", you still learn something about that character's personality. You learn what he would have done if he was put in that sort of situation. In a sense, we get to know this character better than the character knows him or herself. Even if that isn't part of the canon.

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Also, your point wasn't that there was a single timeline that ATLUS was following, but rather that anything that wasn't being directly carried over or expanded upon in later games wasn't worth playing.

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Not worth buying P3P if you've already played through FES. That was my point.

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That because in Persona 4 Arena and Persona Q, the main character of Persona 3 is male, the female main character story doesn't count. Similarly, I guess, Marie's story in Persona 4 Golden doesn't matter, since she wasn't mentioned, nor were any of the events in her story.

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Marie is in Persona Q, so she is most likely canon.

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I guess we can assume that Yu didn't max the Social Links with any of the Investigation Team, since none of them had their final Personas in Persona 4 Arena (even Teddy, who you have to max to beat the game).

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I believe that Atlus has stated this was a design choice rather than a plot element.

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I guess that Yu didn't romance anyone, since there is no romantic indications given in any of his interactions in Persona 4 Arena.

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Nothing is said either way. It's left up in the air.

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You (Bright Shield, that is) seem to be extremely focused on what is canon and not, and it seems to me that you think the only content in a game that matters is the content that later ends up canon (but excuse me if I mistaken about this).

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Not saying that at all. I get every possible outcome, so I can see everything. I was saying that I don't think P3P is worth it if someone has already completed FES. This is due to P3P missing a chunk of the canon story, and replacing it with a filler scenario. Not worth it to me.