Knights are the best job class, and I am prepared to defend that statement.

1.)Yes, my Lancers would in fact have haste.

2.) Also, higher natural HP and PA. So, my Lancers outclass you in both HP and attacking power. That's not a whole lot, but hey, it's something.

3.) Without Chaos Blade you lose the ability to cause a whole crap load of damage as well as your permanent Regen

4.) Also, no matter what parameters you use to calculate your spells, it won't do you any good. I have 3 Faith, remember.

5.) And still, even with the best shield in the world, I still have a 25% chance of hitting you from the front and sides, and 100% from behind. Now, your team won't be able to keep their backs to the wall cuz of their short ranged attacks, so there's usually an opportunity to hit you with a 100% success rate.

6.) (not completely positive 'bout this one) I believe Jump ignores a shield's defenses. So the Lancers would have a 100% chance of hitting you.
A female Lancer leveled up as a Lancer the whole way through would have a PA of 16. Your Knights (leveled up as a magic user, like you said) would have a natural HP of 306, 656 for the lucky one with Grand Helmet and Maximillian and less HP for the rest, who have lower-level equips. Now, one of my Lancers can use Jump and dish out 870 HP worth of damage in most cirmustances. That's more than enough to kill any one of your Knights. But, if Zodiac affinities aren't good, I'd be doing 652 with a bad affinity and 435 with a worst affinity. That's still pretty good, though.
It's pretty easy to time Jumps, actually. The time it takes for the Lancer to land is that character's CT / 2. So, s/he'll land in the time it takes his/her CT to reach 50. All you have to do (against enemies with the same speed as you) is Jump on them only if their CT is below 50. So, the two parties have the same speed. I might take my turn first. So I wouldn't be able to Jump cuz the Knight's CT would have filled up at the same rate as mine. The Knights would move right after I jump into the sky, so it wouldn't work. That means, I would have to is either Attack air and Wait or just Wait. You see, when you use Act and Move in a turn, your CT returns to 0 at the end. If you use only one, it'll reset to 20, 40 if you wait without doing anything. Now, all I would have to do is keep doing that until my Lancers' CT would be able to reach 100 before the Knight's would reach 50. Then I could Jump with each one of them and kill your whole party.

and finally 7.) you just can't damage me! :)

Even after changing your team like you did, they still can't beat the Lancers.




Okay, so you say it's the combination of abilities that make the class so good. Well...to tell you the truth, even the weak jobs can practically become Gods with Math Skill equipped. It is supremely cheap.

I was just reading this topic over when I noticed something that thornwithin said. Something about the Knight's Break Skills being useless on monsters.


Well, when there's nothing to break, you can, for some reason, use a Break Skill to cause damage. It's nothing special, though. You cause the same damage you would with the Attack command. I've seen it work with humans, not sure 'bout monsters.

with the gameshark I use that class on some of my characters and no one can't disagree wtih that statement.

You Lancers have haste? Then you are using up a slot for an accessory. I can enhance my attack power while you cannot. Your attack power might not be higher than my own. Next, true, I would lose attack power, but I would still have the Excalibur, which is a powerul weapon in itself. Auto-Regen is pointless...so it is no loss to me.

As for spells, yes, I would still need them to heal with.

To keep you from attacking behind me, I can place my people strategically. Then you would have to rely on jumping, which can be a bit iffy.

As for your citing damage amounts, you are not taking into account the amount of damage dealt and position. First of all, to jump on me, I would have to be in your range. I might be able to attack you before you come in range. Secondly, if I was close enough, the jumped damage would be less.

Timing jumps is a bitch though because you have to wait the right number of times until your turn comes up in such a way that my CT is below 50. The point that I was trying to make is that, and also my CT would proably be a bit above 50. Your characters are not much faster. Even, then I have ressurect abilities.

First, you would have to time your people in such a way that their jumps would land correctly. And I would not let you do that so easily. Secondly, your people are only a bit faster than mine (unless I enhance my speed with speed shoes or something). The AT list would not begin so that my CT was less than fifty when your turn came up.

I only changed my team because you did. You tailored your team to beat my own. You changed the units to females so they would have higher affinity to my own, and also picked a team that would be able to exploit my weaknesses. Take away the shields, I don't care. It really does not matter.

Even then, I doubt I would lose, because it would be a tactical nightmare for you to entrap me and avoid attack. My people can move farther than yours can, first of all, supposing they have Germinias Boots (or sometimes teleport, but I opt for move+3 for stability). I could compromise HP for battle position and AT position, that is, die (or not) during an attack to be ressurrected is a more favorable position.

One way to be cheap is to have one guy hang back and ressurrect the dead units, which go closer and closer to you. You cannot ressurrect multiple comrades whereas I can raise four at a time.

Lots of job classes such with Math subskills.

Calculators themselves have horrible speed, any unit with no magic skills sucks, Chemists suck with Math because it makes their main skills obsolete, etc.

well, the best party i've ever used for final fantasy tactics was fomed completely of MONKS. heheh, thats right, MONKS. at level 50, my guys all had a movement range of 8, had two swords ability (two punches, actually) and would each do around 500 damage per punch. and this, of course, was before i found the magical world of genetic engineering. nowadays, my favorite party would have to be:
ramza (brave 97, faith 3), orlandu(brave 97, faith 3), beowulf(brave 97, faith 94), mustadio(brave 97, faith 94), reis(brave 97, faith 94). you just get all of these characters the good ol blade grasp ability, making them impossible to hit (well, 3% chance to hit....) ramza, orlandu and beowulf with two swords.
ramza and orlandu:rhand chaos blade lhand excalibur
beowulf: rhand chaos blade lhand ragnarok (shell is good for high-faithed war machines.)
well, with this combination, at level 99, you get this in the secont to last and last battle:
step 1- orlandu runs up to cast lighting stab. both ultima demons behind altima are dead, and altima gets 999 damage.
step 2-ramza runs up there and smacks altima 999+500
altima dies
altima revives
step 3- beowulf runs up there, 999+600 damage
skip through mustadio and reis (altima doesnt do anything yet.)
step 4- even before altima attacks once, orlandu smacks altima. altima dies. no resistance.

Honestly, I used to be a big advocate of the Monk with two swords, but then I realized that the Knight combination was better because you get Haste, can heal and damage multiple characters simultaneously without MP consumption. My units can attack any panel on the board, so as long as I stay out of range with at least one character, I am safe. Your team relies on brute force and a swift kill. But, because I have Haste and the ability to attack at long range, I would probably win. The only person on your team with low faith is Ramza, and I could then attack with two swords and kill him easily.

hmmm if i fought 5 knights like that and i was 99... orlandu (as a holy knight) and ramza (monk) agrias (monk or holy knight) mustadio (chem) and beowulf wouls still own u.....

orlandu would have haste and could drain tons of hp... at level 80 he drians 600-800 hp

ramza as a monk would have 2 swords and kill you guys in and instant cuz if you get close ill teleport to u and hit you in da back for 600+ 2 times

agrias i would have as a monk and hit you twice, a holy knight would stay away and hit you for 500+ with holf explotion, or a dancer ( she has a dance that does 600hp to all or i could stop your turn or drain you magic so u cant heal or reserect! you barley have any magic! you dont have items on you have math!)

musty would shoot u in you arm then u cant do anything!

beowulf would dont act you with musty. when everyone is dont acted ur gonna be a chicken! musty will keep dont act you!

i would OWN u if i was 99!

nobody stands a chance... monks are way better than knights... knights are not the best you just put tons of crap on them. monks are faster, hit harder, harder to hit, more movement range and they have awsome skills! what is a knight gonns do! break my weapon! hah

"First of all, to jump on me, I would have to be in your range. I might be able to attack you before you come in
range."

How the hell is that gonna happen?!?!? I have an attacking range of eight, yours is only one.




"Secondly, if I was close enough, the jumped damage would be less."

.............Eh? How exactly does that work?


"Timing jumps is a bitch though because you have to wait the right number of times until your turn comes up in such a way that my CT is below 50. The point that I was trying to make is that, and also my CT would proably be a bit above 50. Your characters are not much faster."

Well, by not acting and just waiting, I can make my CT fill up before yours. Say, for example, at the end of the first round, me waiting and you moving close to me (physically is your only hope of killing me), the Lancers would have a CT of 40, 20 for the Knights. After the second round, you'd still probably not reach me, so it's Lancers at 100 while Knights at 80. I'd wait, refilling my CT to 40 of the next turn while yours is at 80 of the current turn, you'd move and wait. So, by the end of your turn, I'd have a CT of maybe 60 or so, you'd have 20. So, gradually, I'd be getting an extra turn. At that time, I would Jump on each Knight, killing them all.



"I only changed my team because you did. You tailored your team to beat my own. You changed the units to females so they would have higher affinity to my own, and also picked a team that would be able to exploit my weaknesses."

I did no such thing. I never even posted my party.
Your original team would have lost against my original team. This proves you wrong. Your party isn't invincible.


"As for your citing damage amounts, you are not taking into account the amount of damage dealt and position."

How can I not take into account the amount damage dealt if I'm showing you all how much damage I can deal???

I agree with Mwork and the great use of Lancers. I like the Jump ability, I gives you time to dodge magic spells still being charged and does extensive damage if direct hit. Also spears and a greatamount of armor really beefs em' up. If only you could use doblue sword on them though... sux that spears are two handed weapons in this game.

Ok, so I've been informed by a friend (real smart guy) about this Jump thing. Apparently, for same-speeded units, a Lancer's Jump would hit even if the target's CT is above 50. The highest CT you could have for the Lancer to land the Jump would be 82. That makes it even easier to win.


"I only changed my team because you did. You tailored your team to beat my own. You changed the units to females so they would have higher affinity to my own, and also picked a team that would be able to exploit my weaknesses."

I get what you're saying now. I did in fact change my normal party into those female Lancers to make it easier to win, but only to show you that there's no such thing as an invincible party. For every powerful setup there's at the very least another out there that can beat it. Usually there's plenty. Like here with the Knights. A team of Samurai or Ninja have pretty good chances of beating them, Dancers for sure would never ever get killed, Wizards would demolish them, and any magically strong Job for that matter.




And about that Math-Skill-turning-units-into-Gods thing, it actually is true.

Just answer me this question:

Would you rather a) Have a party of normal Chemists in a battle or b) Have that party of Chemists with Math Skill as a secondary?

Math Skill makes a unit's usefullness augment greatly. Compared to the normal Chemists, the MathSkillin' Chems ARE Gods.

Something wrong with using Knights-Even with all the equip that they can use to raise MA (2 rune swords, wizard robe, magic gauntlet), their MA still fall short of the magician classes. Therefore your magic will be quite ineffective against enemies, and for healing. At most it will heal about 250. 400 at tops. The enemies can easily do up to that damage. By the way, I noticed that you sacrificed a lot of evasion, meaning that you will be hit all the time.

Knights are not the best class. Wizards are. Of course, their abilities alone are useless. You will need to use abilities from other jobs, but it definitely makes a better party than knights, even with normal equipments.
This party is as close to invincible as you can get.

2 female wizards:
97 Brave, 84 Faith

Math Skill
MP Switch
Maintainance
Move-MP Up

3 female wizards:
97 Brave, 3 Faith

Draw Out
MP Switch
Maintainance
Move-MP Up

Wizard Rod
N/A
Ribbon
Chameleon Robe
Chantage

You see, each time they get hit, they take MP damage. As long as they have 1 MP left, HP will not be decreased, no matter how much damage is done. It doesn't work the other way, so there is no worry about taking HP damage from MP draining skills.
If one happens to die, Chantage will raise her right back into battle. It is impossible to break or steal. They will not be affected by any abnormal status effects, except Innocent and Oil, which can be removed by calculating Esuna. It'll be almost impossible to impose a status effect, without using Draw Outs, on the Wizards with little faith.
Though they do not start with it, you can quickly haste this party using a Draw Out or Math Skills.
Finally, we are down to attacking.
Against high faith enemies: duh. Calculate any ol' spell that they can't absorb. Probably flare, since nothing can absorb non-elemental spells. Since the wizards have MP switch, you don't have to worry about dying from your own spell. Flare should do about 600.
Against low faith enemies: Draw Out. Draw Out damage is based on MA, not PA. Thus, wizards will do the most damage with it. You can quickly decimate the enemy rank around you, or far away with the Kikuijimoji. It neglects faith, so it's impossible to dodge, and its damage can only be decreased with Zodiac signs. Chirajiraden will do about 600 damage, and Kikuijimoji about 500, at level 99.

Lets try pitting this party against yours, Jay.
You say your knight can do 1000+ damage with math. We'll go with that.
1000+ damage-MP of the wizards leaves about... 700. That's 700 HP damage to the wizards with Math. That should be enough to kill them. About 1 second after your knights go, though, they'll be right back up. Now we come to the wizards with Draw Out. they'll take no more than 100 damage due to Faith. Now, 3 wizards with Draw Out will do... around 1800+ damage with Chirajiraden. Assume they can't get that near, they'll do 1500+ with Kikuijimoji. That should kill 1 knight and heavily hurt another if they can't catch the knights in rows. In reality, probably kill 2 or 3.
Now we get to the wizards with Math. Just tell them to walk, and MP goes back up. When wizard 1 calculates, and you say all your people are L99, they will all be hit by Flare. Of course, so will the wizards, but they have MP switch, so it does nothing but MP damage. That should take off 500+ from everybody. After that, the other wizard walks and calculates, destroying all the knights.

You probably should have realized by now that the ultimate party isn't with Knights. In fact, they are easily killed.

A party of Two Sworded, Magic Defense Upped, Chaos Bladed, Excalibured, Damage Splitting Knights with Draw Out would fare quite well against those Wizards.



But anyway, on to my analysis of Lans Tartare's Wizards

Lemme say this before I start, that's a VERY good party! Just a couple of small things that might cost you the battle.

If the Knights were equipped with Two Rune Blades, a Wizard Robe, and a Magic Gauntlet, their magic abilities would be quite good. Much better than before. Holy would damage the Wizards (the high-faithed ones) by 671 HP with neutral zodiac affinities. That's quite good. The 3 Faith Wizards would get a worthless 24HP taken from them. Plus, the Knights would be healing for 751HP, even higher than the damage they can inflict.

If in case one of your Wizards did get Innocented, then there's no way in hell you'd be able to Esuna if off. They've got ZERO faith for the time that Innocent is on them, remember? This means absolutely no magic spell will have any affect on them.

That Reraise won't take effect as quickly as you said either. If I'm not mistaken, Wizards aren't that fast of a Job. And Reraise activates in the time it takes for the Wizards' CT to get from 0 to 100. That's a much bigger waiting period than you would expect.

And with Magic Defense Up, a Chirijiraden that would normally hit for 600HP (with neutral affinity) would now hit for 450HP. a Kikuichimoji that would hit for 320HP would now cause a small 240HP, and a Flare that would damage for 726HP would be doing 545HP worth of damage.



Here's how a fight between Jay's Knights and Lans Tartare's Wizards would take place:

The strategy here would be to kill the Draw Outers first. That way, it'll be more difficult for the Chantaged ones to revive when they get killed. So, maybe like three of the Knights would stay behind and calculate like madmen while the other two (equipped with Bracers) went forward to attack the low faithers. The high faithed Wizards would get their MP destroyed by the first Knight, then get killed by the next two, revived, then killed, revived, then killed because the Knights have permanent Haste and would get their turns in before them. Or, if parameters allow, since the Knights go first, and the two groups have relatively high faith, the Knights could just calculate Break on those two (three?) high faithed Wizards. And if that somehow can't be achieved, the the three Knights just have to cast Doubt Faith as much as possible on everyone excluding themselves. Then the high faith Wizards would be screwed for the rest of the battle. All the while, the two Two Sworded Knights would be getting their HP completely restored three times each round and they also have permanent Regen and would therefore be able to hit the Draw Outers without any fear of dying. The Excalibur would hit, depleting the Wizard's MP, then the superpowerful Chaos Blade would hit the MP-less Wizards, more than likely causing death.


So, in actuality, those Wizards have pretty big chances of losing.

And those are my two cents.


As a side note, I personally love Draw Out much more than Math Skill for that same reason you stated. It isn't affected by low faith and ignores all evasion percentages.

But....you think Chantages are normal equips???
And the Chameleon Robes on the Wizards seem a bit useless. Granted, it would help for the high faith Wizards, but the Knights could just do like the Wizards and use Flare or any other attacking spell. And the C.Robes would do the 3 Faith mages practically no good at all. They would only be recovering 24HP, which wouldn't help them the least bit.











All this talk about which Job is the best got me thinking. Which class truly is the best? You know, using only abilities from that one class. That would render more accurate results as to which Job is best, I believe.

Oh I see the whole board is back. Yay!

Anyhow...back to the matter at hand.

T.G. Cid:

Orlandu and them are damaging, yes, but you are going on the assuption that you would be able to hit me. Remember, your Orlandu would be no faster than mine unless you equipped him with something to increase his speed. You cannot say any of your hits would contact me necessarily, unless you would explain your high speed. Your Orlandu has Haste, but do does mine. My Orlandu is every bit as good as yours, so conventional attacks are no good, me being able to do the exact same thing to you.

I don't know if teleport is faith reliant, but it does not always work. Even if you did hit me in the back, I could just do Level3Raise2 and I am back in the game. As I said before, I used to think that Monks with Two Swords was good too, but it is just not as good as my Knights. They just are not effective against a team of enemies.

Agrias as a Monk would first have to get to me before she could hit me. The other Holy Knight would have to be Orlandu, and you are forgetting that calculated attacks can target most any enemy. There is a set range for attacks like Holy Explosion. As for your Dancer, I have never seen one that attacks every character for 600 hit points. Sorry, but I just don't believe you. Unless you sharked yor game. If you actually had a Dancer who was that good, all your other characters would be nearly obsolete!

Drain my magic all you like. I don't need HP. Remember, calculated attacks do not require any MP. Therefore, I can heal and ressurrect indefinitely. And every character at once (Level3Raise2 and Level3 Holy (remember, I absorb Holy spells)). As you stated before, yes, I do have Math skills on. And I shall reiterate: they do not require MP nor are they limited to certain range. In addition, they are cast immediately upon selecting the attack. There is no charge time.

If you try any status anomaly on me, I still can rely on my strong physical attacks (Knights with an Excalibur and a Chaos Blade are usually rather good in that respect). On the other hand, I could just cast Level3Esuna.

You would not own me if you were on level 99 because I am on level 99.

And no, Monks are not necessarily faster. I have automaic Haste, remember? I do not choose the Knight class for their act skills.

Mwork-

Actually, I can attack any square on the field. You have zero Faith, but since I have good Faith, things like Level3PrayFaith might still work. If not, I can still ressurrect myself and work my way toward you. If I position my people correctly, I could have one unit in the back ressurrecting such that in order to get to him, you would have to past ressurrecting units who could move in and attack.

In regard to your question concerning jumped damage, I though you, being the Lancer lover that you are, would know that the farther away a unit is, the more damage you deal to it in a jumped attack.

You can fill up your CT my waiting, but so can I. Or I could get Protect on my people, not that it is worth anything. You are forgetting that if you MOVE, you are wasting time on your CT. Therefore, I would have time to do something before you could reach me. If I staggered my CTs (had some people act, others wait), then you would only be able to attack certain ones, and, in doing so, I would be able to ressurrect them after you kill them or attack you if you are in range. If you move so as to near to attack me, you are using time on your CT.

So, you are telling me you use all female Lancers? I hardly think you do. You seem to be the type who likes to try different combinations, so it is my educated guess that you do not employ that team currently.

Your citations of damage amount does not take into account how much damage would be dealt relative to my own HP totals. Excess HP damage does not do anything, you know. Also, position effects the amount of damage dealt, and, as you know, whether or not you can actually attack.

Chocobo-

Jump will not let you dodge spells if people time them right. At any rate, my spells are calculated, so it is impossible for you to avoid them. Mwork uses the only workable defense, which is having zero faith.

Mwork again-

Apparently, for same-speeded units, a Lancer's Jump would hit even if the target's CT is above 50. So you are using perfume for auto haste? That means you must have all female units. Other things to take into account are that females are weaker tham males and have less HP potentia (but admittedly more MP potential). What I mean is that if you trained each type to have optimal HP or MP the female would always win. As for your friends prediction of whether or not a jump would land, let me ask this: My CT would have to be at least 82 to avoid it? If that is so, you are forgetting that you are not necessarily faster than me. Both Lancers and Kinights have +10% speed advantage.

"I did in fact change my normal party into those female Lancers to make it easier to win, but only to show you that there's no such thing as an invincible party."

Thank you. That was the point I was getting at. At any rate, your Lancers would HAVE to be females to have auto Haste. Plus, they would HAVE to wear Chameleon Robes (as you already established) if you wanted to absorb Holy (not that you would need to).

The thing is with Math secondary skill is that it is best used with Knights. No other class works so well with it as Knights. Also, against a team with zero faith, it really cramps their style. But if you are a Knight with an Excalibur and Chaos Blade...

Lans-

MA is not important. Since every character is the same, then there will be five consecutive turns of Holy. I trained some as magic users turned Knights, so they are good with magic. Secondly, they all have good faith. My strong ones do an average of 300 HP of damage, the weaker ones 170-250 HP of damage. If I use Orlandu, that comes to three magic users turned Knights who do 300 HP of damage (3*300=900) and two who do, and let's round down, 170 of damage (2*170=240), for a total of 1140 (900+240=1140). Nothing but bosses survive that, unless you have zero faith. Holy does not miss. On a side note, in certain circumstances in which I used Level3PrayFaith to hit every unit, I have been able to deal 999 HP of damage per person. Of course, a Monk with Two Swords could do more, but they are less versatile and must do a physical attack with no range in order to deal the damage. Evasion is not worth while because it relies too heavily on luck and unpredictable affinities and such. I am not worried about getting killed. I can just Ressurrect all my units on a single turn.

Wizards suck. They have low HP, cannot do do physical attacks, etc. If you face off with a team with zero faith, you are doomed. MP Switch does not always work. Their HP levels being so low and their Faith levels being so high, I would need to connect with but one calculation to destroy that unit. Units with high Faith have no chance. The Reraise attribute of Chantage does not automatically Ressurrect (I am unsure, but even if I am wrong, it is a moot point, as you will see later). The unit will spend a few turns dead before it kicks in. Plus, I am not sure, but the effect might wear off.

The main benefit my team has that yours does not is speed. It would take one turn before you could calculate Haste on all your people. My team would get a turn first because they have auto Haste. By then, I coul calculate Level Three Flare and kill all of your people on one turn. You have low HP totals. Mine are high, me being able to equip high level armor whereas you cannot. If the one attack fails, then I can do another. I can heal myself with Holy when necessary and have only to wait until one calculation hits. I think that one of the five might just connect. I would, after all, be getting five consecutive turns before you.

Kikuijimoji (sp?) is the only of the Samurai swords (or Katana, whichever you prefer) that has any range. So don't necessarily rely on being able to target me on your first turn. Plus, on staggered levels like Nogias, Kikuijimoji is ineffective as a result of the height differences.

And let's pit teams. Even if MP Switch WAS effective, you cannot have that much MP. Three calculated attacks against you would uncoubtedly reduce that to zero, and leave two more calculated attacks to connect. That would kill you. Wizards suck in regard to HP totals and your have exceptionally high faith. If you ressurected immediately after being killed, my next attack would kill you. Your MP would not be replenished. The battle would be over before the last unit would ressurrect. But let's pretend I am wrong. You have one unit standing. You can attack me, but that is risky. Because Orlandu has a perfect set of armor and is better with physical attacks than magic, he, if no one else, would survive. Your turn is over and he would only have to Holy Explosion you to oblivion. Or, you might try and ressurrect your people. But that is a lost cause. By the time they are alive again, my people will have gotten a turn and I would simply Calculate another spell and you'd all be dead at once.

But let's say somehow, all your units survived. You cannot Kikuichimoji ALL my people with one character. I am not stupid and I would not put my people in rows. If you kill one Knight, that matters not at all to me. It first of all took you two turns to do; secondly, I could just ressurrect when my turn comes up. I think the Kikuichimoji has some range like 6 or 8, which is probably not enough to hit me. Also, you are restricting the fighting zone to flat areas. Nothing else would have the slightest chance of hitting me because the range is simply not enough.

"You probably should have realized by now that the ultimate party isn't with Knights. In fact, they are easily killed."

Actually, no. I'll assume you were not being a smart ass. in reality, you would not survive the first round of combat.

Mwork-

I realized that my "thank you" statement might easily be interpreted as me agreeing that my team could lose. Sorry. I do not concede that point. I meant that I agree that your team was tailored to have an advantage against my own.