Which Final Fantasy do you feel had the best character development?

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

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Originally Posted by chionos

That doesn't mean you shouldn't like the character(s). It doesn't mean I don't like the character(s). It just means it's not quality development. Sorry.

I'm not a FFVII hater. I've always loved the game and most things about it. But it doesn't have stellar character development. Perhaps it has relatively good development for a Final Fantasy, but that is (sadly) not saying much. However much I love the series, however much I may like the characters, they're not deep, they rarely make sense, and they are, more often than not, simply plot devices.

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I think the key thing is whether you like your character development subtle or heavy. You'd need to give me an example of what you feel is good character development I suppose. I mean, you list Sephiroth as having great character development yet I see him as having some of the worst character development. His development goes like this: Discovered what Hojo was doing and what this may have meant for himself, researched, changed from awesome fella to insane psychopath. For me, that's not what I call a dramatic development rather than a subtle development. While I like how Sephiroth changed and whatnot, I don't feel his development is better than that of Cloud, who goes through a few changes over the course of his life, some strong, some subtle.

Also, interesting that you give Aeris a 4 for character development but so many others less. Considering her short amount of time in the game, I can't think of much development that Aeris got at all. She was exactly the same in her attitude towards pretty much everything from start to finish (as I believe was intended).

Oh, opinion, what you do to us. :D

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Aeris' development lies in the fact that she learns to accept her role, to let go, to stop being afraid. Her rating, I guess, is based on what's done with her character while she is on screen, relative to how much/little other characters develop with the time they are allotted.

Sephiroth's development makes sense. He is his own person. The pre-psychosis Sephiroth shows signs already of becoming post-psychosis Sephiroth. Clearly his story has its own flaws, but as far as FFVII goes, it's the most defined, and fits the character best.

THE MAJORITY OF CLOUD'S STORY ISN'T EVEN HIS OWN STORY. It's a great idea, a great PLOT DEVICE, to have his personality taken over by Zack's memories, but that doesn't make Cloud a well-developed character. He has no character. Even if he breaks through the barriers and retrieves his own memories and all that, it doesn't revert him back to a state where he is his own self. He may remember correctly now, but his personally is still infused with Zackness, and everything he does after that point can still be seen as merely what Zack would have done.

Subtle or heavy doesn't matter, as long as it fits, and as long as it's done well.

Good heavy character development: Ayla from Jean Auel's Earth's Children series.

Good heavy character development in a video game: GLaDOS, Kratos, Isaac Clarke, Andrew Ryan

Good heavy character development in a Final Fantasy: Celes, Shadow Lord, Cyan, Garnet/Dagger

Good subtle character development: Most any character in a Russian novel. Anna Karenina, Kostya Levin, Raskolnikov (though there are heavy aspects to his story), etc.

Good subtle character development in a video game: Garrett from Thief, Tim, Rucks (Bastion), Garrus (Mass Effect)

Good subtle character development in a Final Fantasy: Fran, Steiner, Wakka

I wonder how X-2 plays into this? Does it count as character development about how much Yuna has changed in-between games? If so, it did a great job. X-2 Yuna was a really good character compared to X. It was a very logical shift.

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Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover

I wonder how X-2 plays into this? Does it count as character development about how much Yuna has changed in-between games? If so, it did a great job. X-2 Yuna was a really good character compared to X. It was a very logical shift.

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I was thinking about that. I decided not to count (for this thread anyway) games outside the primary entries, so no sequels and such. I agree, though, about Yuna. Sorta. The music thing comes out of nowhere. Or it did for me.

Probably unsurprisingly I agree with most of what chionos has said about the games in the series I've played. VII has a lot of strengths but the character development isn't... as great as it's frequently considered to be, and while IX has some great development for the members of its cast that get focus (Zidane, Garnet, Vivi, Kuja), there are a lot of characters who are underused (Freya, Amarant, Lani, etc.). Of the games I've played, the best development overall is mostly in VI. There are a few joke characters who aren't given any real development (Umaro, Mog, Gogo) but of the serious ones there isn't a single static character in the game. Even Sabin, who probably keeps the most of his personality through the course of the narrative, goes through subtle changes.

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Originally Posted by chionos

THE MAJORITY OF CLOUD'S STORY ISN'T EVEN HIS OWN STORY. It's a great idea, a great PLOT DEVICE, to have his personality taken over by Zack's memories, but that doesn't make Cloud a well-developed character. He has no character. Even if he breaks through the barriers and retrieves his own memories and all that, it doesn't revert him back to a state where he is his own self. He may remember correctly now, but his personally is still infused with Zackness, and everything he does after that point can still be seen as merely what Zack would have done.

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That would make every person that learns with a role model someone else (and metaphorically spoken that is not wrong as we often say to a person we see after 5 years "wow you are a completely different person" even though actually they aren't, metaphorically, yes). Cloud has much of his original characteristics on his surface even while confabulating and Aerith even saw that much of what lied on the surface was not "zacky" but a part of Cloud himself which as the person he was without his copied stuff she liked and found interesting, especially because Cloud was such a "slow" character. If I start to give priority over something, whether I consciously know it or not and in Cloud's case later even reconnect the rest of the supressed part and bring it to the surface again but still learn from the models I have, then it is still me. He no longer thought he was the one who did all that stuff but he still could have made a good use of what Zack was. And that is something we all do. We see someone to look up to and try to learn from it and that eventually becomes a part of us. In Cloud's case we even saw that, though seemingly weak, he still was able even before the Identity Crisis to become a person that overcome his obstacles by fighting for what loved. He was no brave SOLDIER but he still confronted Sephiroth in the reactor to take vengeance and help Tifa and Zack. So basically, yes, Cloud learned from Zack and probably does things that he never would have been too confident about before (and he has still his self-critical side). It is still his live he lives.

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Originally Posted by chionos

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Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover

I wonder how X-2 plays into this? Does it count as character development about how much Yuna has changed in-between games? If so, it did a great job. X-2 Yuna was a really good character compared to X. It was a very logical shift.

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I was thinking about that. I decided not to count (for this thread anyway) games outside the primary entries, so no sequels and such. I agree, though, about Yuna. Sorta. The music thing comes out of nowhere. Or it did for me.

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What music thing?

On that note I also feel the need to bring up Last Mission and how it developed YRP, especially Paine. Rikku's jealousy towards Yuna finding what she wanted was also nicely executed.

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Originally Posted by Karifean

On that note I also feel the need to bring up Last Mission and how it developed YRP, especially Paine. Rikku's jealousy towards Yuna finding what she wanted was also nicely executed.

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Indeed, Yuna's anger in Last Mission is so honest that it feels weird while her anger in Final Fantasy X-2 feels weird just the way it is expressed inbetween. This one felt real however, to a very unusual extent.