Views on XIII now that time has passed?

http://home.eyesonff.com/showthread....y-XIII-Trilogy

XIII-2 would have been better with not every anomaly being called a paradox though that is just a semantical problem but also actual paradoxes causing things that wouldn't happen because of causality that could only be ignored by omnipotence - but well - it just is supposed to be this way. Several explanations also don't make too much sense and I don't really like the use of words like "God" and "almighty" in the third installment when he is just a simple creator and not almighty at al but that is more my problem of thinking too much than a no go that really messes up stories for me and makes me hate them. I actually very much love it, especially the ending.

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

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Originally Posted by Mister Adequate

This is absolutely terrible and I agree 100%. The even bigger problem is that the Datalog does not have entries for enemies, like XII did.

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Wait, isn't there a full bestiary and aren't there DataLogs for the bad guys? I'm pretty sure there are...

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Oh, yeah I can see what I tried to say was unclear. XIII has a full datalog of enemies in that it has HP, weaknesses, and that kind of thing. What I want is much more spergy: I want a big wall of text for every freaking enemy explaining what it is and where it came from.

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Originally Posted by Mister Adequate

I'm surprised to find I'm liking XIII more than I remembered and more than I expected. It's got the same basic flaws and strengths that I recall, but it's overall a pretty decent game in my eyes, and I'm really having fun replaying it.

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These were my thoughts on my first playthrough - I didn't like what I heard of the changes but I found the haters over-magnified the faults of what was in general a decent enough and fun game. You have to understand that members on this forum wanted to hate the game. They hated it when the concept art was unveiled, they hated it when the debut trailer went live, and, somewhere deep in the forums, we have the posts to prove it.

Every video game ever made has faults. I recognized XIII's well enough: the combat was an atrocious marriage of X and XII's gameplay - a watered-down Gambit system and a watered-down Sphere Grid. The monsters were all HD blobs as Vivi pointed out. The "puzzles" were meaningless with a mapmarker and the game certainly dragged towards the end. It committed the cardinal sin of all cinematic games - it did not allow the player to interact with the environment. The ending also made no sense with them "breaking fate" by doing what Barthandelus wanted all along and killed Orphan.

That said, no one can deny that the game had incredible music and gorgeous graphics, both of which were superbly polished for HDTVs and Dolby Digital/DTS surround sound. Square still reigned supreme in terms of imaginative, high-fidelity cutscenes and even the in-game animations are without peer. The combat wasn't as deep as I'd have liked but it was fine enough and enjoyable on its own unless you're actively committing energy towards hating it. And I loved the story. The acting and rendering of the characters far surpassed anything the series had previously accomplished as far as bringing characters to life; you may not like those characters but they were on another level in terms of being lively and animated. I loved how the first half of the game paired them up into smaller story arcs, in which the characters are often acting with cross purposes, even lying to eachother, despite relying on one another to survive. I really liked Lightning as a strong female lead who could be stubborn, committed, spiteful, and accepting all at the right times. And I enjoyed reading the lore entries when loading up a save or taking a break, before diving back into this colorful world. I have to give Square credit: in an era where games are getting smaller with increasingly recycled assets, Square managed to make a 50+ hour game where every captivating environment was different from the last. And that's an achievement all on its own.

But more than anything this game felt like a Final Fantasy and that was something we hadn't had in over 10 years at the time it was released.

I for one liked the creature designs. The music brings a lot of vibe.

The dialogue between duo's helped bringing the characters to life, but I remember that to die down quick.

It's mostly the environments that feel empty and dull, and the gameplay lacks variety. The battle system only shines in boss fights while the normal fights are downright no-brainers for the vast majority of the game. Combine this with the lack of variety and slow pacing and the game becomes a chore.

RPG's that I love all tend to break things up. Dark Souls: explore, spend time in safe zones, upgrade/shop, repeat. FFX: dungeon, explore town, puzzle, repeat. Vagrant Story: dungeon, craft, dungeon, puzzle, repeat. FFXIII does only one thing and puts that on repeat. I remember that part on Pulse where you come across the mech and I thought: "finally we get to do something else!" And then that mech appears to be broken and the whole thing was a let down :cry:

The Fal'cie are poorly explained/designed with very questionable motivations. Character motivations are there but are rarely credible.

How anyone could like a negativitron like Lightning is beyond me. Sazh was the only credible character imo, and I'll give them props for trying something quirky with Vanille.

I loved the concept of Cocoon. Sazh, Snow and Vanille had potential as characters. Shame none of it was executed to the full potential it had.

I'm a hater. I hate the game. Even now. And no, I didn't want to hate it. I still don't. That's just silly. I wanted to love the game as I have loved every single previous Final Fantasy.

I was excited by the early art. I was excited by that very first early demo of lightning. I was excited putting the disc in and booting the game. I was excited by the loading screen. I was excited right up to the point I actually started playing the game, and it was one disappointment after another from there on out.

It's not that everything about the game is bad. It's that all the bad things take away from any good.

Graphically, the game is beautiful. But the beauty is far off, untouchable. troutty camera work and linearity make whatever beauty the environments might have simple background adornment, too far away to really even appreciate. There's nothing compelling about the progression from one area to the next. Also, the pacing is just completely troutty.

The battle system is repetitive and boring. Battle should as much be an opportunity to show off the characters' personalities as the dialogue and movement between battles are.

The advancement system is 95% linear. That's a bad thing. If you're going to be that lazy about developing the system, why bother with it at all? Why fancy up your lame ass linear progression with a big shiny crystal? I mean, you're not fooling anyone. Oh look I unlocked a new level, I get to go up, I wonder what new...same things as before I'll get to hate.

I hate the way the summons are implemented into the story. I hate how bloody random everything is.

The weapon/armor upgrade system is okay, but horribly implemented.

The monsters are generally either so gaudy as to be practically parodies of monsters, or so impersonal as to be non-entities.

The writing is deplorably, abominably, despicably bad. I think we can all agree on that at least, yes?

While some characters have grown on me, the cast mostly sucks. Lightning is boring and nonsensical. Hope is annoying. Snow sucks. The rest are somewhere a bit above mediocre. 'Cept for Fang and Vanille, those two characters have grown on me quite a bit. I think if these had been games about Fang, then my overall opinion might be quite a bit improved. Final Fantasy XIII: Vanille and Fang Go Shopping would have been a better game.

Saying FFXIII was the first game that felt like a Final Fantasy in over ten years seems a bit farfetched. I mean, I understand that this is your opinion, so if that's what you really think that's what you really think. But I have a hard time believing that anyone could possibly truly think that Final Fantasy XIII is more Final Fantasy-like than FFXII, FFXI, and FFX.

First of all, FFXI is probably the most "Final Fantasy" that any game has ever been. It is. I don't care if you like MMOs or not. That's beside the point. Final Fantasy XI DEFINITELY feels like a Final Fantasy.

On the other hand, I can sort of understand why you might want to exclude FFXII as it does have a different vibe, a different aesthetic than most of the mainline FF series. So no real argument there. I mean, I love the game, and for me it fits the FF progression, but I do understand that my perspective is unique in this.

But then FFX, too? While FFX isn't my favorite FF--I wish FF in general would go back to the castles and swords and dragons motif of the early games--it still feels way more like a Final Fantasy than FFXIII. It's a world in which you, the character, get to adventure. Adventure, the heroic epic quest, involving foreign lands, alien and monstrous and magical creatures, lost treasures and hidden mysteries, an evolving world, new and differing locales--this was the foundation of early FF games. And FFXIII is so far from being anything at all like that it's baffling. Except for maybe the creatures.

And in any case, going a long time without getting the Final Fantasy you want is no excuse to accept a pile of garbage prettied up with a FF bow on it.

I guess the best thing I can say about the game, which is sad, is that the music isn't terrible. It's not magical like a FF ST should be, but it didn't turn me off either. Actually, if the music had been better, had been at the level of previous games, it probably would have been upsetting, to have wasted such good music on such a bad game.

I find it amusing how one side's opinions are interpreted by the other as not allowing them to like/hate the game. Seriously? Since when are people here so defensive?

Also, Bolivar - lol? Do you really think people would go and buy a game with the intention of hating it just to spite other people who might enjoy it? Seriously?

I really thought people in this forum above this. But now people list arguments for disliking a game and that's seen as them forbidding others to like it, and vice versa. I have yet to play this game myself, but I can already tell it will be a gut-wrenching experience for me, seeing that no matter what opinion I have on it once I beat it, I will be eaten alive by the other side just for voicing that opinion.

XIII is one of those weird games that actually gets better with age, where all the other games in the series become more and more obviously dated (although they do of course remain brilliant).

And I think the reason it gets better with age is because it was disappointing, everybody hates on it so much! They hate and hate and hate until they're blue in the face, and the perception of the game gets worse and worse and worse. But then you play it again (or at least I do) and go: "Huh. Well this isn't anywhere near as bad as I had got into my head!"

So it kinda goes from being a disappointment to being a pleasant surprise. An odd one.

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Originally Posted by The White Wizard of Fynn

I find it amusing how one side's opinions are interpreted by the other as not allowing them to like/hate the game. Seriously? Since when are people here so defensive?

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You must be new to FFXIII - people have been like this since day one. xD As I say, it's divisive. The main issue people have is that this game has been the "latest single player game" in the main FF series for such a long time, that people use it as the prime example of Where Square Enix Are Today and What Is Wrong (or Right) With Square Enix. Thus, the debate about Whether Square Enix Are Doing The Right Thing has always fallen back to FFXIII, and thus people get quite heated over it because they feel that someone's opinion of FFXIII is the justification of What Will Come Next From Square Enix. xD

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Also, Bolivar - lol? Do you really think people would go and buy a game with the intention of hating it just to spite other people who might enjoy it? Seriously?

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I don't agree with Bolivar regarding this being a notable thing, but I do agree that some people do get a game not with the intention of disliking it, but definitely with the expectation that they will not like it and a lack of an open mind regarding it. But then, the same goes for every game out there. It's just a part of the gaming culture. I've probably been guilty of this at some point - playing a game after it was hyped like mad and expecting it to be not as good as the hype, and then being set in my view from the start. Perhaps that's what affected my opinion of FFVI? Hard to say. I think I gave it a fair go, though.

In the end, despite my massive disagreement with the likes of WK and Veev regarding this game, I consider each of them great people. I don't think people themselves are getting torn apart in this debate... it's just people having a big disagreement over the current state / future of the franchise with this game being the big go-to game for any reference on this matter.

I respect that some people don't like FFXIII, just like I respect that some people like FFII. The only difference is what I've mentioned above - people are heated about it because it's the most recent single player game.

I played XIII two or three times and still regard it as one of my favorites. I liked it from the start and I'm not ashamed to say so.
First of all, I was highly disappointed in FF XII, so it didn't take much for XIII to please me. I recognize the weak points of this game, like its being linear and its confusing way the story was told, but what's most important to me when playing a game is the gameplay. If I don't enjoy the gameplay, I don't care much about a good story or great characters, so in return an enjoyable gameplay and battle system can save a weak story for me. I liked XIII's gameplay and didn't mind the linearity much, and its battle system was something new and interesting to me. It also made fighting ridiculously easy, but I'm not the kind of gamer who seeks hard challenges, so I didn't mind.
I'm well aware of the fact that XIII isn't one of the strongest entries in the series, yet it's one of my personal favorites (though it's my least favorite out of my favorites, ha). I understand why many people dislike the game, but it's all a matter of personal taste, anyway, so to each their own. :) Also, if every game was the same, it would be terribly boring. I think it's okay for game developers to experiment, even if they end up producing failures (such as XIII-2 and LR - at least in my opinion these games were totally unnecessary).

Well if you don't like difficulty gameplay, you might be in for a rough ride with type 0 :p

I didn't say that I have a problem with more challenging gameplay, but that I don't seek for challenges in particular. E.g. I'm neither a trophy nor a superboss hunter, I just don't care much about that kind of stuff.
And I already played and finished Type-0. ; )

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

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Originally Posted by The White Wizard of Fynn

I find it amusing how one side's opinions are interpreted by the other as not allowing them to like/hate the game. Seriously? Since when are people here so defensive?

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You must be new to FFXIII - people have been like this since day one. xD As I say, it's divisive. The main issue people have is that this game has been the "latest single player game" in the main FF series for such a long time, that people use it as the prime example of Where Square Enix Are Today and What Is Wrong (or Right) With Square Enix. Thus, the debate about Whether Square Enix Are Doing The Right Thing has always fallen back to FFXIII, and thus people get quite heated over it because they feel that someone's opinion of FFXIII is the justification of What Will Come Next From Square Enix. xD

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Also, Bolivar - lol? Do you really think people would go and buy a game with the intention of hating it just to spite other people who might enjoy it? Seriously?

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I don't agree with Bolivar regarding this being a notable thing, but I do agree that some people do get a game not with the intention of disliking it, but definitely with the expectation that they will not like it and a lack of an open mind regarding it. But then, the same goes for every game out there. It's just a part of the gaming culture. I've probably been guilty of this at some point - playing a game after it was hyped like mad and expecting it to be not as good as the hype, and then being set in my view from the start. Perhaps that's what affected my opinion of FFVI? Hard to say. I think I gave it a fair go, though.

In the end, despite my massive disagreement with the likes of WK and Veev regarding this game, I consider each of them great people. I don't think people themselves are getting torn apart in this debate... it's just people having a big disagreement over the current state / future of the franchise with this game being the big go-to game for any reference on this matter.

I respect that some people don't like FFXIII, just like I respect that some people like FFII. The only difference is what I've mentioned above - people are heated about it because it's the most recent single player game.

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I haven't played it yet, but I've seen the debates, so that's not new to me. What's new to me is the swarm of people yelling "why am I not allowed to like/dislike this game?!" People are getting their panties in a serious twist. They're getting so defensive and every opinion other than their own seems to be a personal offense to them.

And I don't think it's just about. It being a recent single player entry. I was there when XII came out. People loved and hated it (I was and still am in camp love), but no one got personally offended when someone listed the games faults and why they disliked it. It's getting toxic now, is what I'm getting at.

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Originally Posted by The White Wizard of Fynn

I haven't played it yet, but I've seen the debates, so that's not new to me. What's new to me is the swarm of people yelling "why am I not allowed to like/dislike this game?!" People are getting their panties in a serious twist. They're getting so defensive and every opinion other than their own seems to be a personal offense to them.

And I don't think it's just about. It being a recent single player entry. I was there when XII came out. People loved and hated it (I was and still am in camp love), but no one got personally offended when someone listed the games faults and why they disliked it. It's getting toxic now, is what I'm getting at.

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While I do agree to some extent, I think it is mostly what I mentioned - how many games have been used as the latest (single player) game in the series for this long, and how many games have divided opinion as much? I think there might be some that get close to the latter, but no FF game has been dissected for as long as this one, and the people who dislike the game seem much more viscious in their dislike it than I have seen since FFX and FFXI were released/announced (respectively). But yeah, sadly, this is a thing that happens. I don't think it's toxic so long as you deal with it with a level head and a respect that people can have opposing opinions. I do agree that trying to change someone else's opinion is generally futile, but the main reason I "do my bit" to defend FFXIII as a game is because I feel that it deserves a chance, and a lot of people are put off even trying the game based on the opinions of others which is a real shame.

I'm not sure exactly which posts you're getting the "not allowed to like or dislike the game" kind of thing, mind you.

FFXIII was a fun game to play once, but unlike every other FF I've played before it, I have no desire to play it again. I had fun while playing it, and the sequel was fun too, but after that I was pretty much done with it. It was good, not great.

Both XIII-2 and Lightning Returns were improvements on XIII so my view of it hasn't really improved after seeing how it could've been better.