Bilbo and Sam: the True Heroes

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Originally Posted by Miriel

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Originally Posted by Shorty

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There can be such a thing as a deep, deep love between people (and not always sexual although intimate) that could be cast as romantic or not but it is something I think Frodo/Sam share - that they are essentially soulmates and that while not sexual at all in the books and even though there ar intimate moments, it is something deep and true. Something that not even Rosie will get from Sam.

If anyone has read the epilogue Tolkien wrote for LotR (but wasn't published with it) it is very obvious that Sam is still torn in two despite Frodo's "sacrifice" and while very pleased with is life and his wife, still longs greatly for the sea and to see Frodo again.

I know that many just want it to be a "friendship" and not "gay" but then I think that it is a dishonor to their relationship to simplify it to that kind of argument. It is obviously love, it is obviously friendship but it is also so much more.

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That's about as plain as it gets for me. Not about hobbits wanting to smurf eachother and not about rampant homosexuality in the Lord of the Rings trilogy. Just about love from one person to another that extends beyond friendship and not quite to sexual. And I do believe that Sam loved Frodo more than vice versa.

Ultimately, I believe it's up to the readers to determine how the deeper stories of the characters flow in Lord of the Rings. Whether we want to interpret that as friendship or borderline unrequited love, Tolkien left it for us to decide.

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So it may be arguing semantics but WHY does that go beyond friendship? Why can't friendship include deep intimacy and devotion? Why doesn't having a love for someone who you are NOT romantically interested in count as friendship of the very best kind?

Their relationship also has an interesting master/servant element to it as well, which is now anachronistic and the reason why I think their relationship inspires such confusion today. Tolkien himself said very clearly that the Frodo/Sam relationship was inspired by the batman (ie: personal aide) and the officier roles in the British military:

"My Sam Gamgee is indeed a reflexion of the English soldier, of the privates and batmen I knew in the 1914 war, and recognized as so far superior to myself" - from the Letters of Tolkien

So if anything, they have a band of brothers, we went through war together and I would die for you, type relationship. Which again, for me at least, circles back to a deep friendship and bond. But also tinged with a bit of dutifulness that existed because of Sam's role as Frodo's servant.

When people say things like, "more than friendship" or "unrequited love" there is the obvious implication that there is a sexual element there and I really don't think that there is.

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I'm not saying it can't include deep intimacy and devotion; absolutely, friendship includes those things. I am saying that my interpretation of Sam and Frodo's relationship is deeper than friendship and extends into a weird realm of feelings, and that's all it is: my own interpretation.

I can assure you I definitely did not intend to imply a sexual element to their story as there is no room for that in my Middle Earth. :shobon:

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Originally Posted by Miriel

So it may be arguing semantics but WHY does that go beyond friendship? Why can't friendship include deep intimacy and devotion? Why doesn't having a love for someone who you are NOT romantically interested in count as friendship of the very best kind?

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Like Shorty said, it depends on personal definitions and interpretations of what friendship is and of their relationship.

For me, personally, I have lot's of friends. I like them, they like me, we'll hang out and help each other out if asked, but that about describes the relationship. I don't feel any deep emotional attachment to them, I just enjoy their company from time to time.

But the person who could be classified as my best friend is much more than that. With the exception of my wife there is no one else in the world that I feel comfortable talking about anything and everything with, or for whom I would do absolutely anything. In his case, I find the term friendship inadequate because I care for most of the people I call friends orders of magnitude less. If this guy came to me and told me I needed to kill someone no questions asked, I very well might do it. The closest term I can find to describe our relationship is that of brothers, but I find even that slightly inadequate since a brother is someone you're related to by happenstance of birth and it in no way guarantees emotional closeness. There simply isn't a word I know of that describes it well enough. So I consider our relationship to be something beyond friendship, even though most people would consider us extremely close friends.

So I disagree that saying Sam and Frodo's relationship goes beyond friendship implies a sexual element (the unrequited love suggestions do though if you ask me). Because I love this friend of mine, but it's not sexual. It's understanding, knowing and commitment to that person. Christ, soul mate might even be the most applicable term now that I think about it, even though I find the usual implications of that term in the way many apply it to be absurd.