God bless America's finest.

Six deranged members, plus another eleven implicated. Plus a blind eye turned by the rest of the people working there. Plus the fact that it's taken a year for this to come to public attention. I'd imagine that the rot sets deeper than you'd like to imagine. I'm not saying it's endemic, but I'd be willing to bet that it's not an isolated incident.

And I find it highly amusing to hear that these soldiers are not living up to their heritage. Solving all conflicts with war, marginalization of other cultures, cowboy diplomacy, double standards, international bullying. THAT is American heritage for you.

There are bad people everywhere but we as a nation try and do our best. There are other countries that have done alot more then tease/poke fun at/humiliate prisoners, remember that..

True. But these countries don't hold themselves to be bastions of the free world.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TasteyPies

There are bad people everywhere but we as a nation try and do our best. There are other countries that have done alot more then tease/poke fun at/humiliate prisoners, remember that..

---

And that's relevant to this how? Whatever they do, we have no right to do anything like this.

I guess I was refering to the romantic version that we Americans see in the mirror. You know, goin' to Europe to kick evil ass, fighting Communists in Korea and Vietnam, taking care of other countries, all that jazz. That's the heritage I was refering to. I KNOW it's, uh, idealized, but that's how most Americans view ourselves. We conveniently forget about our mistakes and vices and whatnot. Slavery, the American Indians, corrupt allies, and such, isn't part of the proud history we like to see.

And as soon as anyone turns the mirror on America itself they're branded as anti-American.

Of course. Only COMMIES would slander the name of America like that. Are YOU a COMMIE, Skogs? Huh?!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TheAbominatrix

What I'm saying is, when Iraqi forces do something bad, half of the country is up in arms about what terrorists they are. Evil people. No one bothers to care that, while yes some of them are very bad... some of them only wish to be free, from both Saddam and America. We invaded them, after all, not the other way around. But when American soldiers do something bad, we always get to the truth of the matter very quickly and calmly... that it's only a small part of the 'greater good'.

---

Amazing how quickly this board jumps on a story about soldiers doing bad things. How many positive stories do you see in the World Events section? I think I saw a glimpse of a positive story in the Eyes on Each Other with Tillman, but leave it to this board to twist it around.

Good thing we have people like Skogs, who can sit in his house and criticize. It's not like he has to leave his family and protect a prison filled with people that have just been trying to kill you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Skogs

And I find it highly amusing to hear that these soldiers are not living up to their heritage. Solving all conflicts with war, marginalization of other cultures, cowbot diplomacy, double standards, international bullying. THAT is American heritage for you.

---

Hey Skogs, maybe you can point me to a country with a perfect history.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TheAbominatrix

What I'm saying is, when Iraqi forces do something bad, half of the country is up in arms about what terrorists they are. Evil people. No one bothers to care that, while yes some of them are very bad... some of them only wish to be free, from both Saddam and America. We invaded them, after all, not the other way around. But when American soldiers do something bad, we always get to the truth of the matter very quickly and calmly... that it's only a small part of the 'greater good'.

---

That's funny, because I feel the exact opposite "on the other side of the fence," if you will. I feel like no one seemed to care when a few sickos desecrated American bodies on the streets of Fallujah, but everyone is up in arms when they find out that a few sickos have been mistreating POWs. Funny how that works.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Talus

Amazing how quickly this board jumps on a story about soldiers doing bad things. How many positive stories do you see in the World Events section? I think I saw a glimpse of a positive story in the Eyes on Each Other with Tillman, but leave it to this board to twist it around.

---

Well you're at this board too. When you find positive stories, post them. No one's against posting good things. But nice way to try and turn it around and make this some sort of 'we hate our troops' argument. If you think this needs to be ignored, there's something wrong with you. Post all the positive stories if you want. I'm happy to hear them.

Quote:

---

That's funny, because I feel the exact opposite "on the other side of the fence," if you will. I feel like no one seemed to care when a few sickos desecrated American bodies on the streets of Fallujah, but everyone is up in arms when they find out that a few sickos have been mistreating POWs. Funny how that works.

---

I know I was very upset when that happened. However, that was on national news as it happened. This was covered up for a year and hidden. And don't compare them like one is worse than the other. What happened in Fallujah was horrible. It needed to be spoken of and covered, and it was. What happened in this POW camp is equally horrible, most especially because we're going to this country to liberate it's people. Again, we invaded them, not the other way around (not that it makes what they did to our soldiers okay, it certainly doesnt). Both stories deserve equal coverage and equal horror. But this current one was covered up for all this time, and is now being glossed over as only the six involved, not the entire prison. The grapevine is a fast source of info, I highly doubt the people that were directly involved were the only ones that knew.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TheAbominatrix

I know I was very upset when that happened. However, that was on national news as it happened. This was covered up for a year and hidden. And don't compare them like one is worse than the other. What happened in Fallujah was horrible. It needed to be spoken of and covered, and it was. What happened in this POW camp is equally horrible, most especially because we're going to this country to liberate it's people. Again, we invaded them, not the other way around (not that it makes what they did to our soldiers okay, it certainly doesnt). Both stories deserve equal coverage and equal horror. But this current one was covered up for all this time, and is now being glossed over as only the six involved, not the entire prison. The grapevine is a fast source of info, I highly doubt the people that were directly involved were the only ones that knew.

---

I don't feel that they're equal, in Fallujah they killed and dragged innocent civilian contractors.

In this case, soldiers brutilized an enemy that has or attempted to kill US soldiers.

Though both are wrong, I can point out which is more heinous.

Coverage in Fallujah was immediate because it was definite who the guilty party was.

In this case, a little something we call investigation usually comes first.

------------------------------
Having said that, the General's words best sum up how I feel.

"We're appalled. These are our fellow soldiers, these are the people we work with every day, they represent us, they wear the same uniform as us, and they let their fellow soldiers down," --General Kimmitt

Yes, I must hate our troops because I think that torture is wrong. Do NOT accuse me of hating our troops because I hate this war. I despise this war, but I understand that every soldier on both sides is a person, and every soldier has a family and someone that cares about them. They're people. Every last one of them.

How do you know what these people were in jail for? And that's bull if you don't know who the guilty party is in this torture deal. They're in the freaking pictures pointing and laughing. Stop making excuses. And investigation does not incoporate the complete freeze of information.

Quote:

---

Like Brigadier General Mark Kimmitt very correctly stated:

"If we can't hold ourselves up as an example of how to treat people with dignity and respect, we can't ask that other nations do that to our soldiers."

---

I like the U.S. Military even less after seeing this. Although I've always been anti-military.

No excuse for this. War, or not.

EDIT: Although, after looking at it from an unbiased point of view, those troops were probably under massive stress, and they probably needed something to relieve some of that.

Quote:

---

"We're appalled. These are our fellow soldiers, these are the people we work with every day, they represent us, they wear the same uniform as us, and they let their fellow soldiers down," --General Kimmitt

---

He almost makes it sound like 'corporate image' and 'public opinion' are greater losses than law and justice...
but it's good that the top brass are reacting strongly to this matter.
However, the personnel involved will probably be court-martialled by a military tribunal, thus their guilt or innocence will ultimately be decided by the presiding officers' personal opinions of the troops.[q=DocFrance]I feel like no one seemed to care when a few sickos desecrated American bodies on the streets of Fallujah, but everyone is up in arms when they find out that a few sickos have been mistreating POWs. Funny how that works.[/q]"No-one seemed to care"? That's a bit of an oversight of the massive international condemnation of such terrorist acts, and the widespread public outpouring of support for the families of the murdered. However, it's getting to be quite common for the US to declare, "nobody loves us, everybody hates us!" as soon as the scales are tipped against them on one single matter. The entire (civilised) world deplores the brutal acts committed against innocents; however, we've come to know and expect that these extremists will be depraved and horrific. It's no surprise, only a constant source of revulsion. The US military, however, is supposed to be in Iraq to uphold freedom and international law, to release the citizens from the bonds of torture and cruelty... so it's just a little justified that we should all be concerned and afraid when those same acts are carried out by members of "Operation Iraqi Freedom".
Reminds me of the continuing farce of Guantanamo Bay: Prisoners captured on foreign soil, then deported to a non-US state, with loopholes and technicalities used as an excuse to deny the most fundamental freedoms afforded to prisoners... Then a denial that anything's being done wrong.

The American government is always the first to demand that human rights and freedoms be respected, but often very tardy when it comes to meeting those same standards itself. At least there's been a strong repsonse in this case.

Now, just to avoid the predicatable "omg terrorist die" response, I'll add the the majority of the military personnel in Iraq are doing a phenomenal job in the face of unreasoning opposition, and deeply divided public controversy, selflessly making sacrifices to benefit a people who're similarly divided in their support of the foreign armies. However, the presence of positives does not permit us to blindly dismiss blatant, intolerable acts by select individuals within those occupying forces.

Quote:

---

Although, after looking at it from an unbiased point of view, those troops were probably under massive stress, and they probably needed something to relieve some of that.

---

Unfortunately, this may only be the tip of the iceberg... but hopefully not. However, the US government is still in the process of admitting atrocities from Vietnam, after all these decades; let's hope that nothing more sinister arises from files about Iraq in the future. We've come a long way in the last few decades, it'd be terrible if things start to slip again.

I can tell you about first-hand accounts of what both sides of the Vietnam war did to POWs. How they got information out of them. Disgusting, vile, horrid acts. Rape, torture, murder, mutilation. And I know that, also from first hand accounts, that the stress and insanity of constant death made a lot of guys snap. Even those who didnt snap because so desensitized to the violence that it didnt matter. That's what happens in war.

However, it is not an excuse. Those Iraqi people that murdered those civilians... well I'm sure they were under a lot of stress! Just like our boys. But it doesnt make what they did okay. There is no justifaction for the actions of either the Iraqi torturers, nor the people spoken of in this article. No justification.

Though of course, my saying so will cause me to be branded as an anti-American terrorist. Well... if being against murder and torture makes me a communist, then sign me up.

And Big D, I loved everything you said. Thank you for saying it.