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"Self-evident means that it didn't come from anywhere. It's self-evident; it proves itself. It's self-evident that I exist, for example, because I can't question my own existence unless I do exist."
Wouldn't self-evident mean it DID come from somewhere, but is obvious?
Take care all.
self-evident
a. Evident without proof or reasoning; producing certainty or conviction upon a bare presentation to the mind; as, a self-evident proposition or truth.
Yes, but how is something JUST true? That's not logical to me. The only way something to me is self-evident is because it cannot be explained otherwise, meaning it must be from a higher power or something else unexplainable.
Take care all.
They weren't saying that those truths were self-evident. They said they hold them to be - meaning they were saying that they needed no reason to prove that all men are created free.
Okay, that's a good point, but still, where did this concept come from? Someone just decided that we're all free?
Take care all.
Okay, that's a good point, but still, where did this concept come from? Someone just decided that we're all free? --The Captain
People got together and said "You there, write down some laws, and if we like them we'll all agree to them". And they did. Freedom was probably picked as one of the things protected by law because people tend to like freedom. Why do governments make laws, and why do we live by them? Well, there are all kinds of theories. Social contract for example.
If it was decided by people though, how is it self-evident?
Take care all.
Could you argue that we all shouldn't be free?
I'm having trouble following this argument any longer. The founders wrote "We have freedom of religion" on paper; everyone signed it into law, and so it is. We all have an implicit contract with the government: you protect my freedoms and I'll obey the laws and pay my taxes, and so the laws apply to all of us. We have yet to amend the law to revoke our freedom of religion, and so it still is law, until and unless we do. If someday we do amend the law to revoke it, then we'll no longer have those freedoms. Law is thought up by men, instituted by men, enforced by men. Something doesn't even have to be TRUE to be law, let alone self-evidently true. Everyone just has to agree upon it, and/or the government has to have enough power to enforce it.
Unne, you yourself have argued in the past that humans' are flawed and their choices cannot always be the be all and end all, thus wouldn't it be impossible for a self-evident truth to come from a human if by its very nature it is just true without flaw?
Take care all.
Atheism would not have existed without religion, it is a response to revealed religion. Most famous atheists were already living in a society whose morals and values had been predefined, particularly around the time of the enlightenment.
As I already stated earlier, to follow the bible or any other holy book to the exact letter would be absurd. Also I sdon't see how Utalitarianism, Kantianism and Objecivism are relevant to the foundations of U.S Law and society, could you please back this up somehow?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Unne
The Bible once was thought to condone slavery, the inferiority of women to men, the inferiority of non-Christians to Christians, and in fact many of those things USED to be laws and used to be thought moral; but those notions have since been discarded. Why?
And yes I am saying that American Culture, its laws and its morals hold their roots in religion. I am not saying as you keep mistakenly suggesting Unne, that I am in fact some kind of fundamentalist who believes that a religious text is a legal doctrine and that Americans all go around praising Jesus, Ala, whoever and that keeping slaves and that treating others unequally is condonable. Because it is not in this "civilised" age.
Do you celebrate Xmas? Many religious ceremonies have been assimilated by western culture and are now traditions. You cannot deny that this part of American culture is not founded in religion.
Unne, you yourself have argued in the past that humans' are flawed and their choices cannot always be the be all and end all, thus wouldn't it be impossible for a self-evident truth to come from a human if by its very nature it is just true without flaw? --The Captain
I'm still not understanding what you're getting at. I don't know what "come from" means, in the context in which you're using it.
Atheism would not have existed without religion, it is a response to revealed religion. --Doc Sark
I don't think you understand atheism. Atheism means lack of belief in gods. A newborn baby is an atheist. A person living in a remote place in Africa who never heard of Jesus is an atheist, with respect to Jesus. Atheism isn't a response to anything, it's the default position. You yourself are an atheist to Gonzo the Fire-God of Bilnor, because you never heard of him before I justmade him upmentioned him. You didn't believe in him before I said anything; you don't believe in him after I said anything; your beliefs haven't changed. This is somewhat beside the point of this thread however.
Also I sdon't see how Utalitarianism, Kantianism and Objecivism are relevant to the foundations of U.S Law and society, could you please back this up somehow?
Just giving examples of a non-theistic morality. Your argument seemed to be "Morality can ONLY come from religion, therefore law in America comes from religion". I showed how morality CAN come from non-religious sources, so if the above was your argument, and if you agree that those things are examples of non-religious morality, then I think I've disproved it. I don't know what the founding fathers actually used as the basis of what they wrote. If you claim that the founding fathers based our laws upon religion, or upon Christianity specifically, then you need to back that up. You gave the examples of the Ten Commandments, and swearing on the Bible; I assumed that you were trying to show that our law IS based upon Christianity, which is why I responded to it.
If you're arguing something other than what I believe you're arguing, then if you can specifically state your position, I'll respond to it.
And yes I am saying that American Culture, its laws and its morals hold their roots in religion. I am not saying as you keep mistakenly suggesting Unne, that I am in fact some kind of fundamentalist who believes that a religious text is a legal doctrine and that Americans all go around praising Jesus, Ala, whoever and that keeping slaves and that treating others unequally is condonable. Because it is not in this "civilised" age.
Like I said, I'm afraid I don't understand what you're saying. What is your definition of "religion"? You say that our laws are based upon "religion"; what religion? What parts of that religion? Or is it a mixture of all religions? A mixture of just some religions? A mixture of parts of one religion, and parts of another? Many religions, even many sects of the same religion (e.g. Christianity), have parts which directly contradict other sects or religions; what then? And which laws are based upon religion? All laws? Just some laws? Your argument isn't defined enough for me to respond to it, which is probably where I'm having a lot of confusion. I just need a better idea of what you're trying to say.
Do you celebrate Xmas? Many religious ceremonies have been assimilated by western culture and are now traditions. You cannot deny that this part of American culture is not founded in religion.
You can argue that our society was founded by Christians, and that much of our culture and tradition in modern times is still Christian. I will agree. --myself
All I'm getting at, is that a self-evident truth would seem to be one that has always been in existence, long before mankind.
Take care all.
US law is based on English common law which is based massively on the Bible, so i can simply say yes.
I think the whole idea of "truth" is that it's independent of man. "The earth is round" is true and has been for a very long time, but man didn't recognize it as true until fairly recently in history. "Man should be free" could be a truth which has always existed, even if man hasn't acknowledged it until recently. COULD be, that is; I don't know if "Freedom is good" is an objective truth, or if it even has anything to do with truth.