Printable View
Russia has such a serious problem that they have presented social Darwinism... it will also aid there cannabis crop...which was worth the most in the world during the cold war.
In reality cannabis is safer than alcohol - as nobody has died from cannabis. The problem with decriminalising is that it will force the supply schedule of cannabis and everyone will be smoking cheap dope and nothing will get done.
By that same logic, you could say that vans are safer than cars because less people die in van crashes. The real answer is that less people use them. Certainly, the direct effects of cannabis are less immediately fatal than alcohol; but allowing people to get wildly stoned all the time will have serious side-effects for a considerable period, i.e. years, until or unless responsible usage becomes the trend. Then there are all the long-term physiological and psychological consequences to worry about...Quote:
Originally Posted by Besimudo
I don't really have a problem with it. I choose not to do drugs not because it's illegal to do drugs, but simply because I don't like the effects they have on my body. If other people choose to act differently, it's their right to do so in my opinion. It costs resources (time, money, etc.) to enforce drug laws and, quite frankly, there are usually more important things to worry about.
Drug users consciously choose to harm themselves. I don't think that's a good thing, but it's their choice to make. As long as they don't harm anybody else, I'm fine with it. I would be in favor of laws limiting driving or doing other activities that could potentially hurt someone else while under the influence of various drugs.
"The real answer is that less people use them."
How vague! Did you know that 80% of Australia's Beer is consumed by 10% of its population.... So is that a case of your "less people using them"?
Additionally, the use of cannabis for thousands of years in Asia, Europe and Africa is also "less people using them." I think not!
Also the youths that abuse dope and “go off the track” also use alcohol, if not more than the dope. They simply blame “dope” so the magistrate feels sorry for them and puts them on a detoxification programme.
Finally:
"Certainly, the direct effects of cannabis are less immediately fatal than alcohol; but allowing people to get wildly stoned all the time will have serious side-effects for a considerable period, i.e. years, until or unless responsible usage becomes the trend. Then there are all the long-term physiological and psychological consequences to worry about..."
By simply changing ONE word the opposite argument applies:
"Certainly, the direct effects of cannabis are less immediately fatal than alcohol; but allowing people to get wildly PISSED all the time will have serious side-effects for a considerable period, i.e. years, until or unless responsible usage becomes the trend. Then there are all the long-term physiological and psychological consequences to worry about..."
Alcohol is worse short-term and long-term! So your whole argument makes little sense.
Maybe this will make life easier:
Short-term alcohol = alcoholic poisoning, death, vomiting.
Short-term dope = mild hallucinations, at worst time distortion.
Long-term alcohol = sclerosis of liver, hepatitis, marriage break-down, domestic violence.
Long-term dope = Start dressing like Bob Marley.
Just out of curiousity, but do you use any of the drugs in question Besimudo? It might better explain your point of view.
Take care all.
Less people smoke cannabis than drink alcohol in today's society, yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Besimudo
I've noticed the pro-legalisation lobby always make comparisons to alcohol, yet ignore the more logical comparison with tobacco. Cannabis is far worse than tobacco, an unfiltered joint unleashing far more carcinogens and tar, leading to much more severe cardiovascular effects. Add to that the correlation between cannabis usage and certain neurological disorders in later life. A steady use of alcohol, in a daily but regulated amount, is beneficial to health, at the very least it's not permanently harmful. Regular doses of tobacco smoke or cannabis have lasting effects; tar and whatnot don't simply get circulated out of our systems.Quote:
Maybe this will make life easier:
Short-term alcohol = alcoholic poisoning, death, vomiting.
Short-term dope = mild hallucinations, at worst time distortion.
Long-term alcohol = sclerosis of liver, hepatitis, marriage break-down, domestic violence.
Long-term dope = Start dressing like Bob Marley.
The argument that "one is legal so the other one should be" doesn't hold water, either. Using that reasoning would eventually lead to all drugs legalised - "opium's hadly worse than cannabis, let's legalise it; heroin's practically the same as opium, time to stop the evil police state; cocaine's just a better alternative to heroin, plus it doesn't involve risky needles... lastly, methamphetamines were used in traditional Western remedies throughout the 20th century, let's honour our ancestors' traditions!"
Do you have any proof of that?Quote:
Originally Posted by Big D
I doubt it'll be easy to find true figures since one drug is legal and one is not.
Take care all.
Well at least when they are in a 24 hour state of stonage we can invade them and make Neo-USA
I like the cut of your gib.Quote:
Originally Posted by TasteyPies
Big D, I don't mean to be rude, but you need to get your facts straight. Let's start with the highlighted phrase "cannabis is far worse than tobacco". This may be true, as an "unfiltered" joint realeases more amounts of smoke, but you have to take into consideration that marijuana can be "consumed" in much healthier ways. How? well, eating and vaporizing cannabis (none of which will contain tar and smoke, things you cannot take out from tobacco).Quote:
Originally Posted by Big D
Next, your statement of "the correlation between cannabis usage and certain neurologic disorders" lacks evidence. Consuming marijuana has an instant side effect, which is paranoia, and although it causes this while you are high, you do not remain paranoid afterwards. "But I refer to long term usage" you might say, well, this hasn't been proved yet. You can find that almost everything (articles, tests, etc.) that suggests (I repeat again, SUGGESTS) this "link" between mental disorders and marijuana has to do with the government (any) and their "War on Drugs", which, by the way, does more harm to people than good (but that is another subject).
Then you say "a steady use of alcohol, in a daily but regulated amount, is beneficial to health, at the very least it's not permanently harmful". This, I believe, is true. I have known that drinking A GLASS (1) OF WINE a day may be beneficial to your health (don't know exactly what it does). Now, do you know that there is research being done that states that marijuana could stop the development of cancer? Did you know that marijuana can be used to alleviate nausea and some pain? Did you knwo that one drop of nicotine could kill you?Here are some useful links:
Mental Disorders & Marijuana
Marijuana & Cancer
EDIT: Don't have time to post more links, but I will do so ASAP.
The overwhelming majority of cannabis users smoke the drug. How does eating it reduce the level of toxins, anyway?Quote:
but you have to take into consideration that marijuana can be "consumed" in much healthier ways. How? well, eating and vaporizing cannabis (none of which will contain tar and smoke, things you cannot take out from tobacco).
You could argue that tobacco's no so harmful because it can be snorted as snuff. That simply doesn't happen in mainstream usage.That's why I said "correlation". I know that there has not yet been a proven link, hence my use of the word "correlation". I did not misrepresent any facts; it is known from studies that cannabis usage correlates to increased instances of certain neurological disorders in later life. People who smoke dope are more likely to get those disorders. This doesn't prove a causative link; it is still being investigated.Quote:
Next, your statement of "the correlation between cannabis usage and certain neurologic disorders" lacks evidence. Consuming marijuana has an instant side effect, which is paranoia, and although it causes this while you are high, you do not remain paranoid afterwards. "But I refer to long term usage" you might say, well, this hasn't been proved yet. You can find that almost everything (articles, tests, etc.) that suggests (I repeat again, SUGGESTS) this "link" between mental disorders and marijuana has to do with the government (any) and their "War on Drugs", which, by the way, does more harm to people than good (but that is another subject).
Yes, that's why I'm interested in the research being done into therapeutic, prescribed, regulated use of cannabis as a medical remedy. Curare, methadone and amphetamines have medical uses, that doesn't mean everyone should be able to buy them and use them as they wish.Quote:
Did you know that marijuana can be used to alleviate nausea and some pain?
It goes beyond that; even a daily shot of spirits (whisky, etc) reduces the ocurrence of heart disease and heart attacks. As with all things, though, any excess is dangerous.Quote:
I have known that drinking A GLASS (1) OF WINE a day may be beneficial to your health (don't know exactly what it does).
Curious, you dismiss the possible risks of cannabis and emphasise the possible benefits, but also downplay the possible benefits of alcohol. Not the most productive way to make a point. I prefer research and studies that are conducted in an objective manner, rather than beginning with a presumption and trying to find facts that fit it.
...And where I live, there is no "war on drugs", so the US government propoganda/campaigns/whatever are ineffectual here.
Whoopie lets all argue over the internet! mmm...naw lets just go to russia and get high.
Its gotta be good for Russian tourism....wait russia is cold and doesn't have tourism.. nevermind.
"Its gotta be good for Russian tourism....wait russia is cold and doesn't have tourism.. nevermind."
There's a reason alcohol is associated with Russia... keeps people warm and occupied through the winter, which lasts 11 and a half months seemingly over there.
Take care all.
"That simply doesn't happen in mainstream usage."
Well, if we're talking mainstream usage, between the amount of cigarettes vs. the amount of joints people smoke, cigarattes are much higher. They're both bad for you. The difference between them is negligable, as far as I'm concerned.
"I know that there has not yet been a proven link, hence my use of the word "correlation"."
Then you should look up the meaning of correlation. There is not a proven correlation. Meaning the experiments that have been done are either inconclusive, or not scientifically valid. This means they could've done literally anything to skew the results.
"People who smoke dope are more likely to get those disorders."
No. A few people who smoked dope had a higher chance of getting them than a few who didn't. That means NOTHING. It could be pure luck. I won't argue this further, because it's just not valid. If I smoke and my friend doesn't, and I get AIDS, is that a correlation? Of course not.
"I prefer research and studies that are conducted in an objective manner, rather than beginning with a presumption and trying to find facts that fit it."
You seem pretty biased against marijuana, just from reading your post.
And to your first post:
I think how harmful they are is irrelevant. If you're going to argue that, there's a hell of a lot of other things you should be up in arms against (like say, industrialization in general, and cars? Way more harmful chemicals than cigarettes).
Usage should be an entirely personal issue. If we can choose to damage ourselves with alcohol, why not anything else? Where do we draw the line? Why?
If you're for illegalizing all drugs (alcohol & cigarettes), why not caffiene? Just because it's usually done in small amounts? Why not other things that are disorienting and possibly harmful, like rollarcoasters? Again, where's the line drawn?
"The argument that "one is legal so the other one should be" doesn't hold water, either."
Of course it does. If one form is legal, the other should be too. All theft is illegal, not just theft on children or whatever. That's how laws work. The fact that you can use the same argument to say all drugs should be legal is completely irrelevant.