French Ban on Headscarves.

Ok, my turn now. First of all, I'd like to address what BtV said; I'm very well aware of what the Attorney General's Department in the US has been getting away with since 9/11, and I've been appalled by it since then. However, no one steps forward and asserts their rights (or has not done so publicly) so many people don't realize it. It's infuriating that we let our government do that to our fellow citizens.

Second of all, I should've exercised MUCH more clarity than I did. It was early. My biggest problem with this is the fact that France is, seemingly, attempting to impose secularity upon it's populace. Yes, I KNOW they're not imposing restrictions on religious meetings and other practices, but clothing and other accessories are as fundamental a part practicing that religion as going to church/temple/synagouge/mosque/etc. Headscarves, crosses and skull caps are an expression of that persons religious identity, something which should NOT be taken away by any form of government.

I'd also like to point out that France did not ban crosses, but banned LARGE crosses. French Christians can still wear their most important religious symbol, as long as it's small.

The schools are an extension of the government. Secularity should be enforced to an extent. To the extent where you're actually causing people to do things against their own beliefs, maybe it's not a good thing. Forcing everyone in school to eat pork or something, for example, that'd be borderline cruel. If it's some kind of horrible sin for someone not to wear a headscarf, then maybe kids shouldn't be forced not to wear them.

On the other hand religion is rather silly sometimes. HOW is it harmful for someone not to wear a headscarf? When this kind of thing comes up, I always think, what if I said my religion demands that I get every Wednesday off from school (and work), and I'm not allowed to eat or touch any form of cheese, and three times a day I have to run outside and jump up and down in place for 10 minutes? I'd be laughed at, most likely, and told to act like a normal human being. Change Wednesday to Saturday or Sunday, change cheese to pork, and change "jump up and down" to "get down and bow", and you end up with something out of today's mainstream religions. The silliness of it all probably isn't even apparent because everyone is used to it, but if you take a step back, I'm almost willing to say yes, ban the headscarves, and ban crosses and whatever other magical charms people want to wear to school.

I'm also in favor of school uniforms in general. Kids have 14 hours a day when they're not in school to be as individual as they want.

When they start banning the wearing of religious symbols and what not, then they start banning ur freedom to practice/exercise ur religion. I feel sorry for the mulisms in France. But they can take some comfort in the fact that that'll never happen in the US on my watch.

I never said that what the French are doing isn't bad, I'm just saying things like that are happening all over the world. Just trying to give a little perspective.

In any event, one must remember that France is the most socialist of European countries. In addition to that they are primarily Christian, Roman Catholic to be specific. Does that make them right? Of course not. Does it make it much easier to understand why the action was taken? That it does. No country is perfect.

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When they start banning the wearing of religious symbols and what not, then they start banning ur freedom to practice/exercise ur religion. I feel sorry for the mulisms in France. But they can take some comfort in the fact that that'll never happen in the US on my watch.

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Unfortunately the US is moving in that direction already. Better get cracking my friend.

And a final note. I'm going to come right out and say that I've been consitently annoyed with most of the anti-French idealogy and the "OMG LOOK WHAT FRANCE DID!!!!!!!!!!111" threads and thought patterns. I have relatives in France and who are French, I have some French in me myself. So I do apologize if I appear sarcastic or whatever, the American attacks on France have been grating on my nerves since it started in earnest about three years ago.

As a Muslim I believe France has the right to do what it wants on this issue. Although I do not agree with it. Chirac is not a bad man and does not have anti-Muslim or anti-Arab feelings personally, but when 7 million of them live in your country with no desire to conform or integrate into society, you start to feel a little insecure. The Muslims nearly conquered France and Europe over a span of a few hundred years and Europe is afraid they will actually do it by immigration. No European country except Albania (which is Muslim) is sustaining their population (they are actually shrinking dramatically) and they are increasingly relying on labor from Muslim countries and the Muslims within their own borders. So with all this going on I can understand why this ban happened and not get offended by it, although again I disagree with it.

Given the degree to which the Americans have been slagging off the French, I think the French would be well within their rights to ask for the Statue of Liberty back.

Anyway, as far as the banning of headscarves is concerned - well - I'm not a supporter of it. Part of me thinks that a bit more secularity couldn't hurt, but on the other hand you've got the whole civil liberties issue. I guess another angle would be is that in the vast majority of schools you are not allowed to wear hats, so the whole ban is a way to eliminate the double standard. And it's not as if they can't put the headscarf straight back on after school.

If it were up to me, I'd allow headscarves and other non-intrusive religious apparel, but I don't think the school ban will have a huge effect, one way or the other.

In my defense, I did not start this thread to bash the French some more. If this were happening anywhere else in Europe, I would have made the thread. I like the French, I like France and I like speaking French. I'm not so much angry with the French as I am angry with the idea that a nation who came out from under the oppression of a monarchy (similarly to the US), would take away liberties such as these. Liberties their forebears fought for. That's what I'm angry about. The removal of rights.

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Originally Posted by fire_of_avalon

In my defense, I did not start this thread to bash the French some more. If this were happening anywhere else in Europe, I would have made the thread. I like the French, I like France and I like speaking French. I'm not so much angry with the French as I am angry with the idea that a nation who came out from under the oppression of a monarchy (similarly to the US), would take away liberties such as these. Liberties their forebears fought for. That's what I'm angry about. The removal of rights.

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moan moan moan, you yanks allways forget that your just a bunch of tax dodging colonials.


As for the headscarfs it's there attempt offical to preserve the serperation of church and state. Allthough it's a action trying to placate the french population and their worrys about the increasing islamifaction of France and the combat le front national.

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Originally Posted by Psychotic

I can honestly say that I have NEVER seen that anywhere I've been in the UK.

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no neither have i .we had a prayer room set a side for the muslims and
they could wear the headscarf as long as it was in the colour of the uniform and secured so it wasnt a safety hazard

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Originally Posted by gokufusionss1

moan moan moan, you yanks allways forget that your just a bunch of tax dodging colonials.

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LoL

Meh I would have rather they banned goth apparel.

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Originally Posted by fire_of_avalon

In my defense, I did not start this thread to bash the French some more. If this were happening anywhere else in Europe, I would have made the thread. I like the French, I like France and I like speaking French. I'm not so much angry with the French as I am angry with the idea that a nation who came out from under the oppression of a monarchy (similarly to the US), would take away liberties such as these. Liberties their forebears fought for. That's what I'm angry about. The removal of rights.

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It's not just about France; it's happening in lots of places. Singapore's doing it, and Singapore is right next to a Muslim country!! [Malaysia].

Turkey banned it in schools and Turkey IS a Muslim country LoL. It's just the elite in the army enforcing it, as a "guarantee of secularism" whatever the hell that means, Turks really don't see what the hell the problem is.

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Originally Posted by gokufusionss1

moan moan moan, you yanks allways forget that your just a bunch of tax dodging colonials.

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NO TAXATION WITHOUT REPRESENTATION. NO TAXATION WITHOUT REPRESENTATION.

But that's all besides the point. People should be allowed to wear whatever they want as long as it doesn't make another group of people feel incredibly uncomfortable. And if headscarves make you feel uncomfortable, I think it's time to visit your shrink.

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?

It's Chirac pandering to the far right in France. They've been on the upswing for the last few years, and this is a policy that not only pleases them by removing a visible sign of the big bad islamic bogeyman, but can be couched in terms of increased secularism and women's rights, pleasing the liberals as well. It's a political move, nothing more, nothing less.

A ban on headscarves for reasons of uniform and safety is perfectly reasonable, but if those were the real reasons they would have attempted to reach a compromise, such has happened in some Education Authorities in the UK where this has come up - headscarves are not allowed, but muslim girls have exceptions from school uniforms insofar as they are allowed to wear bandanas and trousers. Everyone's happ, everything's reasonable.

However, the French move has nothing to do with reason, and everything to do with bigotry. So they run roughshod over the beliefs of a sizable proportion of their citizens. So much for liberty, equality and brotherhood.