Spoilers about Zanarkand ubication

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so how come the entire planet can witness sin burst into pyreflies, but something as gigantic as a city cannot be seen?

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You should have read my post just before yours. The reason they can't see DZ is because Yu Yevon obviously didn't decide to stick it straight infront of their noses! He didn't just slap it smack bang in the middle of the populated world for everyone to see, that would be stupid.

No, he hid it somewhere where it could be left undisturbed, and Sin would take care of anyone at Sea venturing too close, as well as crushing the cities so as to keep them from doing anything.

That's why no one saw it. Not because it's invisible, but because it was far away from where anyone lived.

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how can it exist?

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The same way Bahaut, Valefor and Ifrit can exist.

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otherwise, why can tidus travel there when he's dreaming on mt. gagazet near the fayth without using sin?

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You said it yourself, he was dreaming, and didn't literally travel there.
Listen, DZ IS a physical place. It was made up of pyreflies being summoned in EXACTLY the same way as Yuna summons pyreflies to make up an Aeon. We don't take the Aeons to be invisible or "not physical", so why make DZ any different?

Besides, Square said it themselves =P

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

I recommend reading this excellent FAQ:

http://faqs.ign.com/articles/432/432338p1.html

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That is one damn good FAQ, I must say.

This is getting good , All right, I have to say that the Guide is a very good one BUTTTTT !... Is created by a bunch of discussions in a forum just like the one´s we do (and some unmarked officals facts of course), We could create one a lot more logical because that guide get dizzy in some spots.
Ok , obiously nobody in the FAQ forum even think about DZ inside of sin , so they craft their teories all around DZ ubicated in some unreachable place in Spira ( A cave ? :confused: ) .
I´try to give my point of view of what Sir bahamut said (I´m not trying to say you´re wrong, I´m just enjoying the story)
1.- We see a Water ball, we don´t see any sin, I´ve said before that It can be whatever you want to put there, you can´t said that´s is sin because you can´t see it. Auron says "w called it sin", but jecht is already sin , that is the presence of jecht for sure (And otherworld give us a link with the last battle dont´you think ?)
2.- Ok, confusing all this dream and reality Stuff. If you say Tidus is a dream , you don´t expect a psysical person or body, ok.Why do you think The faith says "You are more than a dream now that Sin touches you" (or something like that), Tidus didn´t even became real at all when sin trow him to spira, And you Can´t say that the faith are so powerfull like to dream real people , and create REAL physical locations , And what´s is my point ?... Auron also travels to the DZ in his condition of Unsent so.. is he real or not ?, we don´t really know. Putting all the theories togheter I t should sound something like "The faiths are dreaming so strong , that they really rebuilt Real zanarkand again, wait a minute... is´t a dream right... ohhh it´s so confusing "
3.- As I pointed Out, In the intro Tidus can see the transfomation Of DZ into a frozen time place with nobody, Have you seen that scene in wich Everybody running gets frozen in time , The faith appears and Say "it begins" , later you don´t see nobody else. And what about Tidus floating in the place that the last battle happens , that´s zanarkand , there´s no fact that says that Jecht being Sin can dream his own zanarkand, this is not FF9 where the Party create their own scenarios , But there are a lot of arguments to say that DZ is inside of Sin.
4.- That bouildings , well, I´ve never related to anything at first, but It seems more related to "sin have a city inside", than " wreckage from towns he wrecked in the past", you mean , the buildings spirit traps into sin ? :confused:
5.- Ok, If you say that evry single word that you said you write it down exactly from a Square official publication I would Shut my mouth, And get my airplane to find Znarkand in another place. But if you get those words from that guide , who have mixed text from Forum topics and official infomation , I Can still fighting my argument, because they know the same I know about this Story, And they are really saying what they think just like me. If you read the guide, you may noticed that the only thing that they got from Ultimania Omega Guide about sin was ".the additional explanation that Sin is formed by
gravity spells concentrating pyreflies around the core". So . I guees nowhere in that guide says "DZ is not inside Sin".

For those who are reading that guide, thanks To bahamut for post it there, they dont Agree or deny the theory, they just didn´t think about the posibility of DZ inside of sin. Read the part about DZ, and you´ll find something logical "yevon(inside of sin) summons the dream of the faith, the faith dream Zanarkand, And Zanarkand is in ... Well It should be in spira...maybe in a cave, or deep in the sea, but there´s no posibility of being in another world " And there is ... WOW I find it "Well, where it is located is explained neither in the
game, nor in the Ultimania Guides. The latter however specify that it is
indeed somewhere in Spira. Further, it could be out at sea beyond any Spiran
ship's reach. It could be underwater, for all we know. Or in a cave, the
artificial sun just being part of the summoning. It must not even remain at
one static position. " (took from the guide). That last part gives life to the theory, thanks bahamut.

There´s something good about "auron riding Sin to get to DZ", Because he knows what´s the method but he never tells where DZ is , right. He also says "Being Unsent LET ME ride sin" so, it cannot be just some place in spira... ok, lets say that is in spira, In zanarkand you can see tha stars right ?... And BINGO, nobody is trying to get out from the city !, everybody is in like their own world , there´s no spira around , that´s why the difference between "Dream Zanarkand" and Spira , If DZ is in spira , The story shouldn´t divide Spira And DZ like they were two different places, Tidus say "I get to spira"... what ?, DZ is not in spira ... That´s good for me .... What , The guide says that It´s stupid to think about another world or dimension... That´s good for me ... The last choice ???... What a bout that giant armor that the creator and summoner of that city create to live long eternally in his beloved city ?...Inside of sin is not in spira or in another world, is sinside of sin... and sin is in spira. yeahh !.
Oh ... I have a question, Why Yevon Didn´t rebuilt Zanrkand in his original place ?, Why... Maybe he build the armor to protect it forever... or maybe DZ cannot exist as a normal city in spira. Stop zayying that is in Mt. gagazet (in FFX-2 we see what is in that place, nothing) Or in a cave, being inside of sin , DZ could perfectly exist as a own world , and there´s no need to invent a secret place or something, It was in front of ours eyes all the time Lolll.

i understand that yu yevon didn't stick dz in the middle of the world becuase the would just be idiotic. but im saying is, people all the way in besaid saw sin burst into pyreflies when its all the way on the other side of the planet. if something larger than sin were to burst into pyreflies, even if it was in the ocen farther from any landmass, don't u think SOMEONE would have seen it?and i meant "how can it exist?" as a rhetorical question, lol.

which can easily be explained by refusing to believe that dream zanarkand exists in our plane/sphere :)

or that sin's pyreflies were part of zanarkand's, but I prefer to believe the first possibility^_^

I´m death of laughing with this guide :D , Read this : Jecht, a denizen of Dream Zanarkand, star player of the Zanarkand Abes,
"goes out to train at sea. He stumbles upon Sin who rests in the seas of
dream, and accidentally gets transported out of Dream Zanarkand into the
real world." What is that ? , I don´t know. Sir bahamut , I read that you help to create the guide so you can see the contradictions. In that little piece said that DZ is Real and is not, says that Sin do Exist in the DZ, and says that Jecht acidentally traveled to the REAL WORLD , that means, your theory about zanarkand being a real place AND your theoy about being impossible that sin Exist in Zanarkand, have been crushed by yourself :) , Is not Final fantasy The greatest games ever made ?

i used to think that too, that it doen't exist in this dimension, but now im not so sure. it would be plain and simple if it were in another plane, or maybe somewhere in the farplane?i mean that place is humongous.

also, who says nething about sin protecting dz?he attakced it once....and plus, in reality sin also attacked the real zanarkand once sin was done man-handling the bevelle army. so who says that sin would/is protection dz?

i have a couple theories tho...aren't there two moons for spira?or maybe thats ffix....but if there is, and dz is in THIS plane, then yu yevon could be summoning onto one of the moons or another planet...

but , and this is my favorite theory, what if he's summoning dz in that spherical water thing rite outta mt. gagazet?where the fayth are?i mean it makes a connection between the the sphere of water that attacks dz in the beginning and the one on mt. gagazet. becuase in the ending, you see that sphere of water outside of gagazet slowly decline, and small water bubbles of the dream people with it. it could be that yu yevon is summoning dz in such a small water sphere, but because of the detail and the info he needs, thats why he uses ALL those fayth?

of course, this is all if dz is a real physical place, but if i had my choice id choose the "dz exists on another plane/dimension" neday

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Ok , obiously nobody in the FAQ forum even think about DZ inside of sin , so they craft their teories all around DZ ubicated in some unreachable place in Spira ( A cave ? ) .

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Oh no, that possiblity is brought up more than frequently, but the conclusion was that it wasn't a feasible option.

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If you say Tidus is a dream , you don´t expect a psysical person or body, ok.Why do you think The faith says "You are more than a dream now that Sin touches you" (or something like that), Tidus didn´t even became real at all when sin trow him to spira, And you Can´t say that the faith are so powerfull like to dream real people , and create REAL physical locations , And what´s is my point ?... Auron also travels to the DZ in his condition of Unsent so.. is he real or not ?, we don´t really know. Putting all the theories togheter I t should sound something like "The faiths are dreaming so strong , that they really rebuilt Real zanarkand again, wait a minute... is´t a dream right... ohhh it´s so confusing "

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Let's put it this way; DZ and everyone in it are as "physically real " as Bahamut, which is what I've been trying to tell.
DZ and everything in it is made up entirely of pyreflies, just like very other summoned creature.
As such, we should be able to see DZ in the same way that we can see Bahamut.

What the Faith meant by him becoming "more than a dream" is speculation, so you can read whatever you want into that. Personally, I think the Faith were implying that while all the other "dream people" were imprisoned by the Faith and Yu Yevon(who could alter anything in DZ, including peoples opinions, as he chose), Tidus was now a person with proper free will.

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Have you seen that scene in wich Everybody running gets frozen in time , The faith appears and Say "it begins" , later you don´t see nobody else.

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I don't see the point. The Faith momentarily froze the dream, probably because they realised Tidus importance already then.

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And what about Tidus floating in the place that the last battle happens , that´s zanarkand ,there´s no fact that says that Jecht being Sin can dream his own zanarkand, this is not FF9 where the Party create their own scenarios ,

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No fact? The Farplane is plenty of proof. The Farplane is a huge cluster of pyreflies. When people go there, quite ordinary people, they think about their dead ones, and the pyreflies make them appear.

Sin IS a huge cluster of pyreflies, so if he starts thinking about Zanarkand, it would be rather odd if they DIDN'T form some sort of Zanarkand like town, no?

Anyway, you ignored my other argument here. If DZ is what you see in Sin, then where is everybody? why is it all dead and mysterious, instead of bustling with life? It would make no sense for Yu Yevon to suddenly change everything by removing all the people and making it a ghost town. Yu Yevon just wanted the best for his people.

The second argument, just so you can answer them both at once, is yet again the whole "Sin getting inside himself" thing.
We've established(I hope) that DZ is as real as Bahamut, or any other Aeon, and it's obvious that Sin is quite "real".

So how would you explain how a huge thing like Sin(which remember, could be touched, fealt, smelled, heard and attacked like any other living being) could get inside himself, and attack a town inside his own stomach?
It's just physically impossible. And please don't say "mysterious things can happen", because you might as well say "a wizard dit it" then.
FFX may include magic, but it's still bound by logic.

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But there are a lot of arguments to say that DZ is inside of Sin.

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Then I'd like to hear all of them now, if you don't mind. If you can counter the arguments I presented, AND come up wuth amny other waterproof arguments, the I'll accept the DZ inside Sin view, but if not, I can't.

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Ok, If you say that evry single word that you said you write it down exactly from a Square official publication I would Shut my mouth, And get my airplane to find Znarkand in another place. But if you get those words from that guide , who have mixed text from Forum topics and official infomation , I Can still fighting my argument, because they know the same I know about this Story, And they are really saying what they think just like me. If you read the guide, you may noticed that the only thing that they got from Ultimania Omega Guide about sin was ".the additional explanation that Sin is formed by
gravity spells concentrating pyreflies around the core". So . I guees nowhere in that guide says "DZ is not inside Sin".

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Ok, sorry if I was a bit too quick to mention the Ultimania Guide. What I DO know it says in it is that DZ is a real place, ie. something you can see with your own eyes without warping to alternate dimensions, and that it exists in Spira somewhere.

It might not say that it's not inside DZ(my bet would be they never thought of that as an option even) but the two arguments alone I presented are for me more than convincing enough to get rid of that notion.

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He also says "Being Unsent LET ME ride sin" so, it cannot be just some place in spira...

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What he means is that firstly, Sin was the only thing capable of getting to DZ(probably because it was far out at Sea or up in the sky or somewhere else man couldn't get at at that time), and secondly, he could ride with Sin because he was unsent, ie. he wouldn't be killed by the journey.

I mean, it's not like any random, living and breathing could just hitch a ride with Sin, right? They'd get killed way before that.

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If DZ is in spira , The story shouldn´t divide Spira And DZ like they were two different places, Tidus say "I get to spira"... what ?, DZ is not in spira ...

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You should realise that what we know about DZ wasn't known to Tidus until the very end of the game, practically. I mean, he thought he had timetravelled for Gods sake, so taking his word as an argument is a fallacy.

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Why Yevon Didn´t rebuilt Zanrkand in his original place ?, Why... Maybe he build the armor to protect it forever... or maybe DZ cannot exist as a normal city in spira. Stop zayying that is in Mt. gagazet (in FFX-2 we see what is in that place, nothing) Or in a cave, being inside of sin , DZ could perfectly exist as a own world , and there´s no need to invent a secret place or something, It was in front of ours eyes all the time Lolll.

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He didn't rebuild it in it's original place because all the Summoners would have to walk throught it to get to Yunalesca, which was necessary for the plan to work.

I never said it was in Mt. Gagazet, but thanks for the spoiler(I never played X-2) =P
And really, in a cave inside Sin? Sin may be big, but there's no way he's big enough to contain that entire city. And if you claim it was shrunk, well then why is Tidus the same size as normal men?

Finally, I'm not "inventing a secret place"! I would hardly called "out at sea" a secret place, would you? No, all I suggest is that it is somewhere it can't be easily reached by humans.

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but im saying is, people all the way in besaid saw sin burst into pyreflies when its all the way on the other side of the planet. if something larger than sin were to burst into pyreflies, even if it was in the ocen farther from any landmass, don't u think SOMEONE would have seen it?

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Why are you assuming it burst into pyreflies?

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Jecht, a denizen of Dream Zanarkand, star player of the Zanarkand Abes, "goes out to train at sea. He stumbles upon Sin who rests in the seas of dream, and accidentally gets transported out of Dream Zanarkand into the real world." What is that ?

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I didn't write the guide, so please don't hold me responsible for the way it was formulated.

However, I am certain that Alaistair meant "real world" as in outside of the region which was summoned.
In other words, if you consider a certain area of Spira to be the location of the summoned DZ, Sin took Jecht from that region to the region of Spira which wasn't the location of the summoning.

I discussed it a lot with Alaistair(which is why I was credited) and the mutual agreement was that.

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also, who says nething about sin protecting dz?he attakced it once....and plus, in reality sin also attacked the real zanarkand once sin was done man-handling the bevelle army. so who says that sin would/is protection dz?

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When we see Sin attacking DZ it's because Jecht wants to free Tidus. Jecht wasn't entirely under Yu Yevons control yet(the Fayth imply that it takes some time). But the obvious purpose of Sin is to protect DZ, that's for sure.

Oh, and Sin didn't attack the real Zanarkand back then. It was Bevelles weapons that crushed Zanarkand. Sin then crushed Bevelles army and Bevelle gave in immediately.

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. it could be that yu yevon is summoning dz in such a small water sphere, but because of the detail and the info he needs, thats why he uses ALL those fayth?

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Then how come Tidus is man sized? And this would also suggest Sin had the capability of shrinking himself to a tiny size, which isn't implied at all.

And to end this massive post, I have to say that DZ IS IN SPIRA!
If there's one thing which can't be argued over, that's it. Square said it themselves, and heæd be brave who went against their word.

I guess my one last argument about DZ not being in the middle of the ocean or whatever is that you said Spira lacks the technology to travel to these places now because of Sin and lack of Machina, and technology lost and whatnot.

Well, true, that's NOW. The fayth have been dreaming for 1000 YEARS. And when Sin was first created. along with DZ, Spira was filled with highly advanced technology. Look at Zanarkand - it looks like a space city, with all sorts of tech, and in its war with Bevelle, they considered BEVELLE the technically advanced ones. Bevelle's cloister of trials? All sorts of technolgy. So when DZ was first created, long before all the machina was lost and technology destroyed, (because this did not happen instantanously), things like the Airship were commonplace. I find it hard to believe and entire city could exist and nobody would notice. Just think - it would be hard for us to believe a bustling metropolis exists beneath earth's oceans on our own planet; just because we haven't explored our entire oceans doesn't mean evidence of such a society would be non-existant. And Spira was much more advanced than we are.

Also, about the water thing - I think that's also a great idea. I always thought that had somethign to do with it, because it exists in the middle of the fayth on Gagazet, and towers into the sky. When Sin is defeated, the water bubble breaks, releasing droplets containing the images of everyone who was part of DZ, INCLUDING one of TIDUS. They wouldn't have shown that for no reason. As for Tidus being man-sized, well he was always man-sized, but before existed in the magical realm of the sphere and now in the land of Spira. Porportinally to his surroundings, he's the same. And I don't think its a stretch of the imagination to believe "because wierd things like that happen" etc because the people in DZ ARE NOT REAL. Aeon or not, they never existed, they are created by others. Think: Aeons like Shiva or Bahamut USED to be real people just like Anima was Seymour's mother; you can talk to their fayths. The DZ was created from nothing, just the collective will of Yevon and the memories of the people who once lived there. Tidus was a generation of Zanarkarians that never really existed in Spira, they were dream children. The people in the DZ are the physical manifestations of other people's consciousness. Tidus might look, feel, and act, real, but sorry Pinnochio, you're not a real boy. Therefore, the laws of physics that apply in DZ are those of a dream world, where Sin can exist if the fayth dream about him and the physical amount of space which this world takes up within Spira OR Sin could in fact be very small. Even as small as a water bubble. ;)

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So when DZ was first created, long before all the machina was lost and technology destroyed, (because this did not happen instantanously), things like the Airship were commonplace. I find it hard to believe and entire city could exist and nobody would notice.

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Firstly, I'd reckon Yu Yevon wrecked lots of havock with Sin before summoning DZ and programming Sin to periodically wreck havoc.
And there had been a war, so people were probably more busy rebuilding stuff than going on adventure trips and randomly bumping into DZ.

Secondly, the greates technological city, Bevelle, had sworn themselves as priests of Yevon so as to avoid his wrath, so I doubt anyone from Bevelle would be allowed to make statements that hurt Yu Yevon in any way. So even if some random Bevelle citisen flew out and spotted it in the ocean, when he came back to tell, he was probably ignored and imprisoned.

Which brings me to my next point: if someone came back home from a boat trip raving about having seen Zanarkand(I'm guessing that Sin would have fully destroyed machina before people started forgetting what it looked like and all), who would believe him? In everyones eyes, Zanarkand had been flattened to the ground in the war. He'd probably be ignored, just like we would probably ignore someone who claimed to have seen Atlantis.

So with Sin lurking about, Bevelle being Yu Yevons slaves, and everyone thinking Zanarkand was destroyed, I don't think the likelyhood of the city being found and made public are very great.

As for DZ being in the bubble, I'll grant that it is certainly possible given the circumstances, but I personally believe DZ to be "lifesize" simply because I don't like to assume more than absolutely necessary.

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

Why are you assuming it burst into pyreflies?

When we see Sin attacking DZ it's because Jecht wants to free Tidus. Jecht wasn't entirely under Yu Yevons control yet(the Fayth imply that it takes some time). But the obvious purpose of Sin is to protect DZ, that's for sure.

Oh, and Sin didn't attack the real Zanarkand back then. It was Bevelles weapons that crushed Zanarkand. Sin then crushed Bevelles army and Bevelle gave in immediately.

And to end this massive post, I have to say that DZ IS IN SPIRA!
If there's one thing which can't be argued over, that's it. Square said it

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1)because dz is a summon. he's summoning dz. what do u think he's using to summon dz with?the dream, of the fayth.pyreflies are part of the act of summoning. he can't magically create a physical city without something.
2)what happend was zanarkand got destroyed by bevelle's army. in order to get revenge, yu yevon created sin wiht the fayth that were people from the original zanarkand. sin then destroyed zanarkand, and
then sin chased and annihilated the bevellian army. i think maechen says it on either gagazet or somewhere.but im almost positive he says it somewhere:)
3)just outta curiosity, when/where did square say this?was it in the game?or was it some sort of publication?

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1)because dz is a summon. he's summoning dz. what do u think he's using to summon dz with?the dream, of the fayth.pyreflies are part of the act of summoning. he can't magically create a physical city without something.

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Oh, I know DZ is made of pyreflies, I always said that. What I mean is, DZ didn't have to burst into a colourful explosion to the same extent Sin did.
I mean, look at Tidus. He was part of DZ and he just faded away.

But even if we do assume DZ burst into pyreflies, well, if DZ was on the other side of the planet, they wouldn't be able to see it anyway.
I mean, even if there was a nuclear explosion in Australia, no one here in Norway(where I live, the other side of the planet) would be able to see it.

Sure people all the way back in Besaid saw Sin, but Sin was high up in the sky for one, making him far more visible, and of course he may have been on the same side of the planet as Besaid.

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2)what happend was zanarkand got destroyed by bevelle's army. in order to get revenge, yu yevon created sin wiht the fayth that were people from the original zanarkand. sin then destroyed zanarkand, and
then sin chased and annihilated the bevellian army. i think maechen says it on either gagazet or somewhere.but im almost positive he says it somewhere

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Actually, you may be right here. Sin may have destroyed what was left of Zanarkand before he was in control of Yu Yevon, but regardless, Yu Yevon obviously uses Sin to protect DZ later on.

I mean, Yu Yevon is only interested in keeping DZ summoned, not in making the Spirans suffer, so the only reason for him to keep Sin around is so he can protect both himself and DZ from being found, by keeping the world at a primitive level.

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3)just outta curiosity, when/where did square say this?was it in the game?or was it some sort of publication?

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It's in the Ultimania Omega guide, a japanese only guide, a big book including everything there is to know about the game, put together by Square themselves. They give away a lot of information about the plot too, which is where this has come from.

lol. i actually read that guide A LONG time ago, but i always wondered where they got their info from. it was kinda strange. neways, about what maechen says about the war...

The Destruction of Zanarkand

Maechen
"There is a legend, you know."
"Just before the horrible Sin appeared..."
"a terrible war raged between Bevelle and Zanarkand."
"When the armies of Bevelle attacked Mount Gagazet, they heard a song echoing across the snowy slopes."
""'Tis a song from an otherworld," they said. The soldiers panicked and ran."
"And then, as if to pursue the retreating armies, Sin appeared!"
"Some time later, scouts from Bevelle braved the mountain."
"On the other side, they witnessed the ruins that had been Zanarkand."
"The city destroyed. Not a single soul left standing. Gone!"
"In its place, a multitude of the fayth had gathered on Gagazet."
"They were singing a song."
"It's the song we now call the "Hymn of the Fayth.""
"And that, as they say, is that."
"Well...maybe not all of it."

that lil bit is from final fantasy worlds apart. they have the entire script of both ffx and ffix.

oh, and i was just assuming that dz would burst into pyreflies because its a summon. tidus didn't spontaneously combust, although it would've been hilarious, becuase he himself isn't the actual summon. he's just a sort of tool, or detail. he's not the summon.

i dno't kno. square is awesome at letting us think for ourselves, lol. im sticking with my bubble theory tho, lol. i mean, sin does stop by near the end to "visit" tidus, and possibly to protect dz. plus, they do have that fmv where u see the fayth on gagazet and the "fountain" and the bubble sphere where it cuold be. plus the ending fmv of it descending. i take that as important.

hey this mite not have nething 2 do with this, but what's the "last mission" of ffx-2?isn't that in some tower in gagazet? :confused: (i've never played ffx-2.

That script bit doesn't say Sin attacked Zanarkand though. I'm not sure, but I guess it's a small matter really.

As for Tidus, you could consider him the equivalent of Bahamuts big toe.
If Bahamut exploded, so would his big toe, so I reckon that if DZ exploded, so should Tidus.

yah, good point. i woulda laughed so hard if yuna was crying and he just spontaneously combusted with pyreflies. i woulda felt bad, but it woulda been worth it,rofl.

neways, the maechen bit doesn't make it clear, but i think it implies that sin destroyed whatever was left of zanarkand.

or another place it could be is where the "chasm" is in the calm lands....isn't penance from there?maybe penance is dz's protector?i don't really kno, im just brainstorming. :rolleyes2 then again, i guess it can't be since people would be able to see it so clearly