Printable View
(SPOILER)Early on: Zack, because he's a buff SOLDIER and Cloud's a motion-sick weakling.
Later on: Cloud. Even if you ignore the facts that Cloud has his sword and Zack gets killed, Cloud's Omnislash is enough to take out Sephiroth in the final one-on-one. Sephiroth can kill Zack. Cloud can kill Sephiroth. You do the math.
I think Cloud would win. Even when Cloud didn't have any special Mako powers, (SPOILER)he defeated and killed Sephiroth whereas Zack lost to him. And near the end of the game, Cloud has grown so strong that he'd defeat Zack in a fair duel.
Cloud... Duh.... :lol:
At the beggining Zack was storger. (SPOILER)He made it into Soldier and Cloud didn't. Also it was Zack who had to get Cloud out of Nibelheim. Who would be stronger at the end of the game is questionable, bacause Zack too could train, find weapons, materia etc.
ok, let me start:
First of all, Zack WAS Stronger than cloud by FAR!!! The reason cloud defeated seph at the reactor was bc while sephy was getting jenova, and after defeating tifa and Zack, cloud stabbed him in the back, injurying him Greatly. Thats why sephy only grabbed her head, bc he was TOO injured! thats why cloud was able to defeat him on the walkway in the reactor, sephy was injured.
Second, At the beginning, cloud was not as weak as you think, cloud was an EXCEPTIONAL fighter, due to all the fights he got into as a child, the reason he didnt make it to soldier was bc, his body REJECTED the mako "drowning" (dont know any other way to put it :p) thats why he wasnt allowed into soldier.
third: Zack and Cloud revieved the same mako drowning and Jenova injections AFTER the reactor incident, but Cloud was way too weak for the jenova cells, so, basicly, he lost his mind, while for Zack, all that happened to him was that he became alot stronger. Zack escaped bringing cloud with him ,protecting him on the way. after killing, i dont know, 20 enemies at the same time (:p), Zack turned around to check up on cloud and was pireced by a hail of bullets.(which I believe that NIETHER cloud or spehy could have taken that in their normal forms). So Zack died, cloud took his memories (from the reactor and now on) and his outfit and sword, and there you go.
I hope I cleared some things up.
so who do I think would win?
umm, at the beginning: I'm not sure, remember, cloud was an EXCEPTIONAL fighter, his body just couldnt take the mako
after the injections: Zack, no question, he excepted the injections WAYYYY better than cloud
if Zack survived and at the end of the game where cloud was in his right mind: I have no clue, I would like to think cloud, but I'm leaning toward Zack.
Hope it didnt seem like I was rambling. :p
er...cloud...
Cloud, dude!
All he'd have to do is gore him with his hair, instant kill!
(Wonder how much hair gel he uses)
Didn't Zack have spiky hair, too?
Uhh, yah, nevermind
cloud cant kill zack and zack cant kill could therd both die when one ot the other died
Spoiler: Omnislash COULD kill Sephiroth, but if you leave it, Sephiroth attacks you, then you counter and kill him in one hit. So Sephiroth would lose straight away if it was a three way match. I'm voting that Zack would win, because he'd probably have the same limit breakers as Cloud, but they'd be better, as Cloud probably stole Zacks limit breaks, as well as memories.
Zack reminds of Goku SS4 so he would win.
Here's an analysis of the theoretical conflict.
What we know: Zack was a member of SOLDIER, First Class. This means he was fit for SOLDIER, and suffered no crucial or debilitating reaction to Mako or Jenova injections.
Cloud was never a member of SOLDIER; his recalled experiences were based on those of his friend Zack. However, he was built like a member of SOLDIER. It can be assumed that he didn't make it primarily because of adverse reaction to the Jenova injections.
Cloud's problem was not a function of pure combat. Nor was it a problem that involved Mako showering in any way. As a matter of fact, Cloud likely bares a remarkable resistance to Mako. Note the following:Quote:
Cloud: I never was in SOLDIER. I made up the stories about what happened to me
five years ago, about being in SOLDIER. I left my village looking for glory, but
never made it in to SOLDIER...... I was so ashamed of being so weak; then I
heard this story from my friend Zack... And I created an illusion of myself made
up of what I had seen in my life...... And I continued to play the charade as if
it were true.
Barret: Illusion, huh...? Pretty damn strong for a llusion, I'd say.
Cloud: I'm physically built like someone in SOLDIER. Hojo's plan to clone
Sephiroth wasn't that difficult. It was just the same procedure they use when
creating members of SOLDIER. You see, someone in SOLDIER isn't simply exposed to
Mako energy. Their bodies are actually injected with Jenova cells...... For
better or worse, only the strong can enter SOLDIER. It has nothing to do with
Jenova Reunion. But weak people...... like me, get lost in the whole thing. The
combination of Jenova cells, Sephiroth's strong will and my own weakness are
what created me. Everyone knew that. I'm...... Cloud. ......the master of my own
illusionary world. But I can't remain trapped in an illusion any more...... I'm
going to live my life without pretending.
Now, with all due respect to Zack, the so-called "proto-Cloud" of the Kalm flashback was obviously based on Zack. Literally. Cloud took on all of his characteristics, such as having no issues with motion sickness. However, that also means that Cloud's battle capabilities were really those of Zack: Level 1, insignificant HP, no magic, and no Limit Break.Quote:
Barret: So what about him? You know...... Cloud?
Doctor: I'll say it again, he's got Mako poisoning. I've never seen a case this
bad. An immerse amount of Mako-drenched knowledge was put into his brain all at
once...... No normal human could survived it...... It's a miracle he did!
However, we must also assume that the same conditions apply to the young Cloud: Level 1, insignificant HP, and no magic. Cloud might have developed Braver, but since he would have had a gun at that point, I doubt it.
If the battle were to take place at this early point, it would appear to have the makings of a draw...except for one point which I shall address in a moment. Bare this in mind, however: Cloud was, according to my theory, not in SOLDIER because of the Jenova, not because he wasn't a sufficiently talented fighter (or a potentially talented fighter).
Now, we have at this point an apparent draw. However, we see both Cloud and Zack confront Sephiroth in the Mako Reactor. Zack, as we all know, didn't fare so well. Cloud, on the other hand, came out the victor. After being stabbed by the Masamune, a sword that reputedly only Sephiroth could wield, Cloud took it by the blade and hurled it, along with Sephiroth, into the depths of the reactor.
However, this does not immediately doom Zack's cause. It could be argued that Cloud had greater impetus to defeat Sephiroth; it was his hometown that Sephiroth destroyed, his mother who was killed during the calamity, and Tifa who was injured -badly- by Sephiroth earlier. Nevertheless, this leads to an argument that I feel would put Cloud back in the lead, so to speak. That argument is as follows: in FFVII, Cloud was very clearly interested in what people thought of him. If it was indeed an emotional outburst that allowed him to throw Seph down, then the intense desire to prove himself would, in my mind, prove the deciding factor in a conflict between Zack and the young Cloud.
Zack dies before progressing further as a character. A fair comparison beyond their young selves would, therefore, be difficult to determine. However, consider the following:
Zack has no Limit Break.
Cloud, having a sword, would have developed a Limit Break at this point.
Advantage, Cloud.
The following is a possible reason for the fact, but is not critical to the argument.
From a certain scene in Beginner's Hall, we see even a bully's victim execute a Limit Break. They should be available, with proper weapon, early on. "But Sephiroth had no Limit Break!" you cry. Very true. As a matter of fact, the members of SOLDIER you fight in battle, 3rd, 2nd, and 1st Class, also have no Limit Breaks. This is clearly theoretical, but it may be that acceptance of Jenova sterilizes Limit potential, so to speak. "But Vincent..." Yes, Vincent was treated with Jenova. However, his case can be argued in one of two ways. Either he didn't accept the Jenova, partially explaining his strange Limit physiology, or he did accept the Jenova. That would explain why none of his Limits involve a gun. Rather, his Limits are the manifestation of the experimentation.
The point is that Cloud, imbued with Limit potential, would have an advantage in terms of a later-stages battle, even if Zack were to grow in combat ability at Cloud's rapid pace.
What I think really seals the deal in this argument, however, is Sephiroth. Ignoring everything that happened in Nibelheim, let's look to the "final battle" of the game. Cloud vs. Sephiroth. Cloud cannot, no matter how hard you try, lose this battle. I simply cannot see, in a real world-style duel, Zack defeating Sephiroth. By extension, then, Cloud would triumph in this later stage of the theoretical contest.
ok this whole post is one huge spoiler that is slightly ludicrous, a far fetched bizarre theory and possibly very misguided, it is only a result of my obsession with this game and playing far to many times.
(SPOILER)first thing first, the idea behind this is Zack is not dead, he was shot by a inhuman amount of bullets, and should have died yes, (like I said a crazy idea) but Cloud was dubbed a failed experiment while Zack was not. Zack would have been given a tattoo, and since he was the first attempted at a copy of Sephy he would have been given the tattoo number 1.
Vincent was treated with Jenova before Zack but Sepheroth would still be young at this time and also he was merely experimented on since he was to be dealt with by Hojo for screwing around with the Jenova project and trying to stop them from using Lutricia. ok so Zack was considered a success, correct?
Now it is well known that the effects of the tubes they were in at the bottom of the Shinra mansion had healing properties. so Zack could have still been suffering from the effects of the Mako-JENOVA fusion. Look at Cloud, he had scratched his message into his cell just as Zack had on his, Cloud was still conscious in the tube yet may have gone into his condition after being cast out of the cell and not being fully recovered sending his body into shock.
Ok early in the game, soon after you meet Arith and before you go to her house, there is a large metal tube in the slums, enter the tube and there is a man sitting there with black hair , he is rocking back and forth and if you approach him Arith will get in your way and say something like "No, he is in a very poor condition, we haven’t been able to get him a doctor, he also has a tattoo of the number 1 on his arm!" after she gets out of the way talk to him and he mutters incoherently, he is also gone after meteor is summoned and you get the key to sector 7 and return to that area!
Please tell me what you think of this theory is it bizarre and impossible or is there a slim possibility.
to stay on topic: Cloud drops sword and forfeits rather than attack his friend in his incoherent state!
The man in the pipe had the number 2 as a tattoo, not the number 1. This kind of makes it difficult for it to be Zack, considering Zack didn't have a tattoo.
He's gone because he left to attempt to reach the Reunion. The man next to the pipe implies this.
It was Cloud who suffered an adverse reaction to the Jenova cells, not Zack. If Cloud had recovered from the delirium, there's no way Zack would still be suffering from it, considering it never affected him in the first place.
There is no plausible theory that links the man in the pipe to Zack. Zack is dead.