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Remember the scene where Ramza gets ambushed while praying & talking to Delita at the church? If it weren't for Delita kickin' everybody's butt, Ramza would have a uber tough battle & might've been killed. Sure, Delita did do some things that were wrong, but he made Ivalice a lot better place. By the way, Hitler was an Ethnic cleanser, while Delita was SO not. So just drop it!! More later.
Thanks- BudSoda02 BudSoda02@yahoo.com
Although his motivations are complex, Delita never does anything that is not in his own best interest. So even when he does good and noble things (such as aiding Ramza), his motives are suspect.
Ramza frequently does things that would have benefitted him more if he had kept his mouth shut. He does the right thing, even when it gets him serious trouble.
Delita would make a great character for a Greek play: a man with a potential for greatness, but undermined by tragic flaws.
Of all the historical figures in history the one he most reminds me of is Napoleon Bonaparte. A low ranking commoner who oppurtunistically works his way to the top, aided by a real genius for military strategy. And even in exile, Napoleon knew the greatest victory would be how posterity regarded him.
If you've ever played Suikoden II, the contrast between Ramza and Delita is startlingly similar to that between the Hero and Jowy.
I've never played any of the Suikoden games...
What systems are they on?
Suikoden I and II are on the Playstation.
Suikoden III and IV (eventually) are on the Playstation 2.
I don't have a PS2, but the first two games in the series are neat. You recruit 108 characters in each, so character development is minimal, but for me the most fun is how the castle/home base gets upgraded the more recruits you get.
You get to use up to six characters in the active party, each with unique skills and abilities. You do the usual random monster/dungeon thing, but it adds in massed battles and other interesting subquests and minigames.
I'd say of the two, Jowry is more admirable.
I never liked Delita and especially never liked Algus.
Reasons:
1) Never got to level them up like the rest of the characters
2) Always stole my kills or
3) Was always getting killed
4) [SPOILER] At the end of chapter one he gets peeved off at Ramza when Ramza did nothing. This ticked me off
I laughed soooo hard and long when Delita was stabbed at the end...and so did my friend.
It would be interesting however, to play the game through Delita's story.
What Delita did was immoral but, for me understandable. His sister the one he truly cared about was ordered killed by the people he served. Delita then got his vengence on the system that had used him and killed his sister by manipulating and murdering his way to the top, purging those he thought corrupt. The one thing that threw the wrench in his plan's gears was the fact that he actually began to fall in love with Ovelia.
::Placed in another Thread::
I do not approve of Delita. At all. First off, the "end justifies the means" logic is inescapably unethical. This is compounded by the fact that Delita's actions were, in many cases, completely reprehensible, even if that logic thread had justification. Furthermore, I question Delita's motives. There is not much in the game to suggest this, I admit, but I've always felt Delita was less about "cleaning up corruption" and more about "getting to the top." BG-57 makes an excellent point regarding this.
By the way, if he truly loved his sister, then he never would have followed such a bloody, manipulative path. Really, I see many similarities between Delita and Wiegraf, not the least of which is that, in "getting things done", each betrays the memory and ideals of a sister. Actually, in some respects, both characters exhibited traits of madness. Admittedly, one would be hard-pressed to describe Delita as even remotely insane, but his single-minded drive is so antithetical to what he really "hoped to accomplish" that it at least merits mentioning.
There is also no indication that Delita's ascent changed the status quo. Other than the members of the aristocracy and nobility that died in order to hasten or facilitate Delita's rise to power, there seems to have been little done to the higher-ups of Ivalice's society. While killing them would be immoral, if Delita were so focused on "eliminating corruption", he likely would have done so. More to this point is that the Glabados Church continued. If Olan Durai intended to present the truth to the heir to the throne, but was burned at the stake by the Church, Delita did little or nothing to reform an institution whose intrigues he was clearly aware of. Hence, I would argue that even the end Delita sought was ultimately little more than a power grab.
This reasoning concerning Delita can certainly be debated; it's not meant to be a definitive statement. It's a personal interpretation. However, that still doesn't change something that is clear: Delita's actions were irredeemably unethical and immoral, and nothing changes that.
Without going into too much detail here, "St." Ajora Glabados was the host for his Lucavi alterego Altima. The ultimate intent of the Lucavi was to resurrect Ajora, to give Altima (and by extension the rest of them) a vehicle to Ivalice.
Germonik was originally dispatched by the Yudora Empire to verify their belief that Ajora was a spy. Germonik never proved the allegations, but did find that Ajora had gathered several Zodiac Stones. When Zodiac Stones and Ajora are mentioned in the same sentence, there's probably going to be trouble.
Balmafula was one of many, yes, but she had fallen in love with Delita, or had at least become infatuated with him. It says that she was unable to draw her sword when he attacks her. For him to do that to her and either attack her, or cut her tongue out, needlessly, it clearly shows that he had gone too far.
And I would assume that Delita and Ovelia's scene wasn't years upon years later, otherwise the sprites would have changed, or more information would be given. They don't have any problem changing sprites or using sprites for one story scene, such as the modified Alma for Ajora, or even his portrait. Instead, he's just wearing a cape, right? King Delita and Queen Ovelia are their names used in the ending, so I assume it was just a year later or a bit after the marriage. Any farther on that would extend into the reach of "long and peaceful rule" would have had sprite changes to reflect that.
I understand what Masamune1600 is saying, however, I do not consider Delita a villian. In the end, he was still Ramza's friend. Even when he was being stabbed in the gut by his wife, he remembered his friend. :D Though it does upset me about striking Balmafula. She loved him, yet he would strike her even if she could not do the same to him. At least he didn't kill her. And in the end, he did bring peace, even if he had to do a lot of cruel and dirty things. Besides, I always felt sorry for Delita, not only because of his sister, but because he was constantly pushed around and treated like dirt by everyone besides the Beoulves, and in the end even they betrayed him. In his shoes, I know I would have done almost the exact same things he did. The person I truely hated and in a way truely blame for what Delita did was Algus. if not for him, Delita probably would have never even considered doing the things he did.
I think you misinterpreted this scene in the epilogue. When Ovelia stabs Delita, she accuses him of murdering Ramza and planning to kill her. After killing Ovelia, Delita stumbles back and says, "Ramza... What did you get? I...." This has nothing to do with remembering his friend, whom he would have murdered had he gotten in his way. This was a natural reaction to Ovelia's accusation.Quote:
Originally Posted by TurkSlayer
The Lion War continued after the Church had offered mediation. True, the Church was corrupt, but if peace were Delita's true aim, he would have supported the effort to some degree, even if he clashed with the Church and Dycedarg on the specifics.Quote:
Originally Posted by TurkSlayer
Did you also feel bad for Wiegraf? Or Balk, for that matter?Quote:
Originally Posted by TurkSlayer
Yes, I dislike Algus as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by TurkSlayer
I still feel that, in the end, one of Delita's main objectives was his own ascendancy. If his real aim had to do with justice, he would have been in Ramza's party. It's that simple. Justice is not synonymous with vengeance. Even if Delita wasn't about procuring power, he has no understanding of this fact. Delita, having started out as a commoner, should have been in a better position than anyone to push for social equality. There's no indication of this; all we know is that he "brought peace to a chaotic kingdom." Ironically, his manipulative actions throughout the game were often counterproductive to the concept of peace. But that's beside the point. For all of his desire to supposedly bring an end to manipulation, the Church still burned Olan at the stake for attempting to reveal the truth. Even if Delita never learned the truth of Ajora Glabados, he obviously knew the Church was corrupt. Justice demands that Olan not be burned.
However, even if Delita's true concern was justice and the elimination of corruption, his methods are antithetical to his designs. One cannot compromise justice in order to bring it about. Not as I see it, anyway. Delita, whether you agree with my assessment of his goals or not (and it can easily be argued either way; I strongly encourage anyone reading this to form their own opinion and not rely on what I or anyone else have said), abandoned ethics and morality for the purpose of his designs. Ultimately, what this comes down to, is that I feel the end does not justify the (questionable) means. Thus, from a purely ethical standpoint, Delita did not do the right thing.
I'm not saying what he did was right. He killed and hurt people, and I know that for the most part it was for his own gain. What I'm saying is that ultimately, it did bring peace. And it is true that he did nothing about the church, which really I can't argue with at all. He knew it was corupt, and he probably knew Olan was telling the truth, yet he did nothing. No, I can't argue with those facts. But, as I said before, if I had been him, i would have done the same, with perhaps a few differences. I know he was wrong, everything was he did was wrong, and your right, the end does not justify the means. However, I still do not consider him a true villian, even though he was any a few way evil, but not purely.
A good point. I'd hesitate to call him a villain, at least in the conventional sense.
i think Delita ended up as a villian because he used people to get to the top (their deaths), something that he despised because he was a commoner. However, I think he was a hero from a commoner point of view, because he showed everybody that he could rise to whatever he wanted to be if he worked hard enough.