I never understood this shuyin/ Tidus crap... *Spoilers*

i think the kid you see in the dream zaanekind (howerver its spelt(tierd lol) is tidus younger selth. also tidus might be the way the fayth rember shuyin to be. shuyin did die in bevelle infront of vegnagun. shuyin's memory got stuck in that "den of woe" place. the true consesnus on shuyin was also trapped there and later posessed nooj then barali. this could of happend because the cave was used to burey people that might become fiends and only shuyin became one. the thing with the dress spheare is that lenne consusnes got trapped inside it and reacted to shuyin making yuna look like her to shuyin.

tidus wasnt created from the bloody memory ARRRRGH!!!.

shuyin and lenne were involved in a war with bevelle and zanarkand.

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Originally Posted by Xyex

Now, as for the Shuyin/Tidus connection, it's never specifically stated but I think it's fairly obvious myself. We don't actually SEE Shuyin die in Bevelle. The scene shows him go down, Lene die, and then that's it.

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And then they stop moving... and die. It's specifically stated that Shuyin never got to hear Lenne saying "I love you," even though we see her saying it. He had already died. Everything in the game goes to indicate that he died right there.

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Originally Posted by Xyex

And other scenes imply he survived and didn't know she died right away.

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No scene ever indicates that he survived.

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Originally Posted by Xyex

We don't know if the dream Zanarkand ever 'reset' after a point, starting over again, or if one person 'died' the Fayth just created a new dream self. Either way, it all still fits.

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Time passes the same in Aeon Zanarkand as it does in the rest of Spira. There is no "reset," nor is there a reason for one to be present.

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Originally Posted by sayen

also tidus might be the way the fayth rember shuyin to be.

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Originally Posted by Squall of SeeD

He couldn't have been, seeing as how Zanarkand was remade as the Fayth had known it (which would have included Shuyin) 1000 years before Tidus was ever even alive. He may have been a descendant of this Aeon Shuyin, but even that's not supported in-game really.

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Originally Posted by Squall of SeeD

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Originally Posted by Xyex

Now, as for the Shuyin/Tidus connection, it's never specifically stated but I think it's fairly obvious myself. We don't actually SEE Shuyin die in Bevelle. The scene shows him go down, Lene die, and then that's it.

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And then they stop moving... and die. It's specifically stated that Shuyin never got to hear Lenne saying "I love you," even though we see her saying it. He had already died. Everything in the game goes to indicate that he died right there.

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Actually, no. Lenne was weak and dieing, she couldn't even get out more than a low whisper. That's why he didn't hear.

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Originally Posted by Xyex

And other scenes imply he survived and didn't know she died right away.

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No scene ever indicates that he survived.

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There are a number of scenes that depict a captured Shuyin asking to see 'the Summoner'. At least 2 of them. In these scenes he's refering to having attempted to use their Machina. Hence the events that lead to him and Lenne being shot having already occured and him surviving.

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Originally Posted by Xyex

We don't know if the dream Zanarkand ever 'reset' after a point, starting over again, or if one person 'died' the Fayth just created a new dream self. Either way, it all still fits.

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Time passes the same in Aeon Zanarkand as it does in the rest of Spira. There is no "reset," nor is there a reason for one to be present.

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And you know this... how? You have zip, zero, zilch, nadda to say that Dream Zanarkand doesn't 'reset' now and then. Think about it. How could Fayth that lived 1000 years ago make a Zanarkand that they don't know? They're recreated THEIR Zanarkand. Obviously, once they reach a point, it's not thiers, their dream would end. Most likely it resets.

However! Another option is that when a Dream person in Zanarkand dies the particular Fayth that created him generates a new 'dream person'. Most likely in their own image. Either way, it's a direct link between Tidus and Shuyin.

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Originally Posted by sayen

also tidus might be the way the fayth rember shuyin to be.

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Originally Posted by Squall of SeeD

He couldn't have been, seeing as how Zanarkand was remade as the Fayth had known it (which would have included Shuyin) 1000 years before Tidus was ever even alive. He may have been a descendant of this Aeon Shuyin, but even that's not supported in-game really.

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And I've answered this already. ^^

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Originally Posted by Xyex

Actually, no. Lenne was weak and dieing, she couldn't even get out more than a low whisper. That's why he didn't hear.

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He stopped moving before she did. Watch the FMV again.

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Originally Posted by Xyex

There are a number of scenes that depict a captured Shuyin asking to see 'the Summoner'. At least 2 of them. In these scenes he's refering to having attempted to use their Machina. Hence the events that lead to him and Lenne being shot having already occured and him surviving.

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No. Remember, he infiltrated Bevelle in an attempt to save her. He then tried to use their crap and got captured. He broke out and then tried to use Vegnagun to blow up the whole of Bevelle and Lenne stopped him, then they got gunned down:

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Maechen: Where to begin? About a thousand years ago, Lenne was a
popular songstress in Zanarkand. The talk of the town, you might say.
In a more peaceful age, she might have lived out her years as a
performer. But the times-and her talents-did not allow such a thing to
be. You see, Lenne's gift for singing was matched by her genius in the
summoner's arts. When then Machina War began, all summoners were sent to the front lines. Zanarkand was hopelessly outnumbered, and Lenne knew she would not return home alive. Nonetheless, she was prepared to lay down her life to protect her people. Yet there was one person who refused to let Lenne die. Yes, he would do anything to save her. He was...a young man, Lenne's lover.

Rikku: Shuyin?

Maechen: I...don't know. His name has been lost to history. Whatever
his name, the youth endeavored to steal the enemy's machina weapon and save Lenne. However...

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Every indication in-game points toward him having died there:

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Maechen: The lovers met a truly tragic end. Those images we all witnessed are most certainly a record of their last moments.

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Paine: Maybe Lenne felt the same way. The man she loved, he struggled to save her. He fought till his very last breath for her. I think that Lenne's final words might have been happy ones: "I love you."

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(In the Den of Woe)

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Paine: You!

Shuyin: I wanted to rest forever, but the pyreflies make me relive that
moment... Again and again and again.

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Yuna: What's going on?

Shuyin: You will see.

::Shuyin makes Yuna collapse and see the scene of his and Lenne's deaths once more; she rises again a moment later and Shuyin steps toward her; she aims her guns at him::

Yuna: Stay back!

Shuyin: This is our story, Lenne.

Yuna: Don't make me say this again! I'm... not... Lenne!

...

Rikku: Shuyin is no ordinary unsent!

Paine: Seems that way. When he died a thousand years ago, his feelings became intertwined with the pyreflies, creating this... apparition.

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On top of all of this, if he had been a Fayth on Gagazet, he would have gone to the Farplane with the rest of them when Yu Yevon was defeated. His spirit wouldn't have remained in Spira.

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Originally Posted by Xyex

And you know this... how? You have zip, zero, zilch, nadda to say that Dream Zanarkand doesn't 'reset' now and then.

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And you have absolutely no evidence to even suggest that it does. o.O

We know time passes the same in that corner of Spira as it does in the rest of Spira. 10 years passed since Jecht's arrival on the mainland, and 10 years passed since his disappearance from his home. This is pointed out in-game on several occasions.

Further, Tidus is a child when Auron goes to stay in Aeon Zanarkand. He is a young adult during the game.

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Originally Posted by Xyex

Think about it. How could Fayth that lived 1000 years ago make a Zanarkand that they don't know? They're recreated THEIR Zanarkand. Obviously, once they reach a point, it's not thiers, their dream would end. Most likely it resets.

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That's not how it works, Xyex. The place is an Aeon. It's manifested into the world as any other Aeon is. Time passes the same there. People are born there, they have their children there, and then they die there. The place isn't a huge recording of the Zanarkand peoples' lifetimes. Its basis was in their memories. From that point on, it was doing its own thing.

For that matter, its not even an exact recreation. There's no Yevon there. There's no Summoners. There's not even a Yevon dome. A Blitzball stadium is in place of the Yevon dome. Again, its basis was in the Zanarkand peoples' memories. Everything that happens there is not.

For that matter, by your argument, Valefor could never do anything when Yuna summons her except something that its Fayth remembers. It couldn't learn new Spells or attack in a different way or any such thing.

And, once again, there's no reason for such a thing to happen, mustless a suggestion for it.

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Originally Posted by Xyex

However! Another option is that when a Dream person in Zanarkand dies the particular Fayth that created him generates a new 'dream person'. Most likely in their own image. Either way, it's a direct link between Tidus and Shuyin.

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We don't have reason to believe that things work that way, either. We see the Spirit Energy of Tidus' mother on the Farplane. Remember, these people are real. They're not just projected fabrications. They are Pyreflies that have coalesced into living beings.

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Originally Posted by Xyex

And I've answered this already. ^^

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Without taking into consideration the continuity of Final Fantasy X, yes.

You know, I don't think we were ment to look so deeply into the storyline of X-2 . . .

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Originally Posted by DarknessFromAbove

You know, I don't think we were ment to look so deeply into the storyline of X-2 . . .

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Especially since Square-Enix obviously didn't. :p

I don't think tidus and shuying have any connection other than that they look similar to each other. Just because people look like each other doesn't mean there has to be a connection, obvious, hidden or otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Autumn Rain

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Originally Posted by DarknessFromAbove

You know, I don't think we were ment to look so deeply into the storyline of X-2 . . .

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Especially since Square-Enix obviously didn't. :p

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X-2 is loaded with depth and detail, but people generally prefer to overlook it because it's not woven into the plot the same way as it is in other FF titles. Besides, it's easier for people to say, "this game has no plot and it's crap!" rather than "this game's plot is complicated and I don't understand all of it".

Hey, I got into this one. Finally the lead chick was a girl instead of built like one.

While yeah I played it off a roomies ps2 and never really got far, it seemed to me when you used a sphere you actually took in a persons memories or aditudes. As it states in the begining when yuna dances. Its like a combonation of GF and Materia (Lifeforce and memories) ?

Anywho, So my guess would be that the spheres were all created by faiyth, and used to document themselves.

I would guess that Tidus had an extremley different story than the rest of the faiyth as at the end of FFX he is revived. I never really did delved into the symbolism of ten that much unforunatley. But this thread kinda got me the urge to buckle down and buy my own ps2. :) er wait and get the 3.. gr hum....

(ramble ramble)
Bipper

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Originally Posted by bipper

While yeah I played it off a roomies ps2 and never really got far, it seemed to me when you used a sphere you actually took in a persons memories or aditudes. As it states in the begining when yuna dances. Its like a combonation of GF and Materia (Lifeforce and memories) ?

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That's basically it, yeah. Whenever a character uses a sphere and gains new abilities, they're embodying someone else's traits. Yuna just got more of an effect from the Songstress sphere because of her similarities to Lenne, and because she used the sphere for a long time - e.g. wearing it into bed.

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Anywho, So my guess would be that the spheres were all created by faiyth, and used to document themselves.

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Nah, they're basically like Materia in FFVII - natural accumulations of spirit energy. Some are manufactured and used for recording images, but they're all capable of absorbing a person's own spirit. The songstress sphere contains Lenne's spirit, and so forth. Every sphere represents the trapped memories and powers of someone.

Here's my current take on the matter of Tidus and Shuyin. I intend to refine certain ideas for increased clarity in the near future, though.

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Originally Posted by masamune1600

Here's my current take on the matter of Tidus and Shuyin. I intend to refine certain ideas for increased clarity in the near future, though.

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Maybe the game doesn't clarify the connection between shuyin and tidus because there really isn't any connection between them other than that they look alike and giving yuna a reason to join riku.

He had a tidus dreamsphere?

This is kinda a joke - but it could be true lol. dunno

/shrug
I need a ps2 now.. you guys have an evil way of reeling me into your ffx2 cult :mad:

Bipper