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Originally Posted by edczxcvbnm
Bush has the support of the House of Representatives now, and for the House, elections come by every two years. Which means in 2006, a lot of them will be up for reelection, and believe me, they want to get reelected. If the public no longer supports Bush, then it is no longer prudent for members of the House to support Bush. If the members of the House no longer support him, then it will be much harder for him to have his way.
"I'd also like to know why the worst of the worst of the worst (The worst few hundred captured of several tens of thousands are the ones in Gitmo.) are being believed when they've demostrated they're more than happy to kill and maim. Are they going to have a second's compunction about lying?"
actually they haven't. they haven't been given a trial. and so are guilty of nothing. some weren't on the battlefield at the time they were arrested. some are children. one is a cripple in pakistan at the time. one was blinded in custody.
and we wonder why america refuses to show us the full picture of it's concentration camp? because we all know what goes on in there.
and this censorship proves that there is something to hide. and we wonder why people hate america? because they have this place is one reason.
there is no defence of what goes on in this place and covering it up does not hide that fact.
Seeing as how they would become flip-flopper by all of a sudden not going along with what Bush says it isn't very good for them either. Also most people probably have no clue how their representative does in office. They usually look towards the leadership of their party such as Presidents, Majority/Minority leaders, State Governors. That is if they even look at that. A lot still vote on blind party lines.Quote:
Originally Posted by fire_of_avalon
Thanks fire, that's the point I was trying to get across, but it's like 100
degrees and I don't have an air conditioner. :p
.opt
To prove that there was nothing illegal being hidden from the public, they release a censored videotape where most of the camp was off limits and no interviews were allowed? Whether there's anything to hide or not, this was NOT the way to handle the problem.
Guys it a millitary base. You can't walk around a millitary base randomly filming things. Honestly, it would be the same thing in any other millitary base in any other country. Just try walking up to a british millitary base, camcorder in hand, and see how long it takes for you to get arrested. It won't be long, and chances are you'd face charges.
Gnostic I ain't trying to argue that.. and I don't think many are. HOWEVER BUSH SPECIFICALLY DARED THEM if I recall. Meaning that for that particular dare they should at least have been allowed throughout the place. Black bars, blurry faces.. etc can act as sensorship to keep one from guessing a prisoner's identity.
If you are going to dare someone to come in and show the public you had damned well let them or else you really just botched yourself up.. bad.
Even if it was a dare, there are always places in any millitary base where you won't be allowed to film. That would be the same as any base.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShunNakamura
And black bars and so on would probablydo enough to hide the identitiy of prisoners. The CNN/Gitmo thing is actaully worse than no press at all, especially with the accusations swirling about the place.
I don't think Gitmo is a gulag or a concentration camp, which I've said before, but I suppose that's a different debate.
That was sort of what I was getting at. Not letting press into a military base would be standard fare, and rumors would be left at rumors. All this did was confirm that there is infact a lot to hide.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gnostic Yevon
Links to those please? And secondly, they might not have been found guilty, but they're sure as hell not being held without due suspicion. Frankly, it's like those things you see on TV when the cops refer to someone as a suspect when the 'suspect' has gunned someone down in front of the cops.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloud No.9
Well there are some conflicting conditions if I ever saw them. We can't know what goes on in there without being shown. We can only draw inferances.Quote:
and we wonder why america refuses to show us the full picture of it's concentration camp? because we all know what goes on in there.
So you put the human rights of inhuman scum (Who don't think twice about making people beg for their lives, releasing videos thereof, and promptly beheading them.) before the safety of three hundred million US civilians and the soliders defending them? And we wonder why America laughs at Europe.Quote:
and this censorship proves that there is something to hide. and we wonder why people hate america? because they have this place is one reason.
Incidentally, as has been said, this censorship proves nothing whatsoever, except that their right to not be identified isn't being broached. Which hardly looks like a damning indictment.
But I do agree this wasn't the wisest way to handle it. People against Bush aren't going to care about the reasoning, all they will see is 'CENSORSHIP' branded in whacking great letters on his forehead.
This was just a stupid idea. Bush and them wanted to show there's nothing going on, but they failed to think of that it's a military base and portions are blocked off from unauthorized personnel, and the fact that the prisoners themselves can't be filmed - so this, effectively, did nothing, and will probably just galvanize the conspiracy-theorists further.
so milf asks for links. well instead ow writing up the whole list again. i hope i will be allowed to simply copyt from them from a previous post. i hope the higher ups will allow this.
http://www.mindcontrolforums.com/kubark.htm#IXE
that is the most acceptable full publishing of the kubark manual i can find. the part on pain gives notes the idea of stress positions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manadel_al-Jamadi
he is the man in abu gahrib who died from the palestinian hanging technique.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_cure
a torture technique used in both places
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo_Bay
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_X-ray
a list of people held in guantanamo bay that proof a point.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Ismail_Agha (arrested by northern alliance not us army and is 14)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mehdi_Muhammed_Ghezali (in pakistan)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mamdouh_Habib (another one in pakistan and was exported for torture, was sexually abused in camp x-ray)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaser_Esam_Hamdi (while he was a naughty boy the court ruling in his favour is significant)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdurahman_Khadr (two years with no explanation)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murat_Kurnaz (alledges all kinds "ickiness")
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asadullah_Rahman (is 10 years old for smurf sake!!!!)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mullah_Abdul_Salam_Zaeef (an ambassador of the taliban to pakistan, captured in pakistan, and he's a cripple, i bet he was fighting hard)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mullah_Abdul_Salam_Zaeef (another one in pakistan, and was made blind by his captors. and the us happily allowed libyan interogators access to him.)
"so for all those people whp thought begg was a one off. it looks like you were mistaken.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sensory_deprivation as a form of torture
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sensory_deprivation the effects of
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mock_execution
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shabach_technique has been believed to have been used on occassions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_boarding another nasty torture method.
so yep lots and lots of nasty things to do to your fellow man."
and of course moazzam begg who isn't listed there. but like many. was arrested imprisoned for 3 years (note that he wasn't in afghanistan but in pakistan and was probably not arrest by government or army troops). tortured. then released as innocent. if he was guilty of something why release him? and if he is not why torture him for 3 years? why hold a 10 year old under the same conditions? a cripple who was in pakistan at the time?
this all make guantanamo bay a war crime. censoring war crimes is not big or clever. those who participate in it at war criminals and should be imprisoned also.
why if these men are guilty can we not try them? why if they are innocent do they hold them? why if they are human can we torture them? and why is this covered up and swallowed by americans who believe that it's okay to torture his fellow man?
It's also forty years old. I'm pretty sure they've figured out whole new worlds of pain since then. :rolleyes2Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloud No.9
Those are the valid things on Wikipedia. Using it as a source for information such as definitions of terms is a-ok. It's rather less reliable - seeing as anyone can contribute - to claim all those assertations are truthful based on what Wikipedia says.Quote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sensory_deprivation as a form of torture
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sensory_deprivation the effects of
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mock_execution
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shabach_technique has been believed to have been used on occassions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_boarding another nasty torture method.
so yep lots and lots of nasty things to do to your fellow man."
And when he got out, Moazzam Begg admitted that he had funded Al-Qaeda and had visited their training camps.Quote:
and of course moazzam begg who isn't listed there. but like many. was arrested imprisoned for 3 years (note that he wasn't in afghanistan but in pakistan and was probably not arrest by government or army troops). tortured. then released as innocent. if he was guilty of something why release him? and if he is not why torture him for 3 years? why hold a 10 year old under the same conditions? a cripple who was in pakistan at the time?
If they are guilty, trying them might require revealing some severely classified information and, as we're still smack in the middle of the war on terror, it's hardly prudent to tell the world who your agents and contacts are. And please, don't try and make this out to be an exclusively American thing. Every other nation on Earth has been and almost always still is more than happy to torture people for information. In addition, they were probably released because they gave the US what the US wanted, and in return got their freedom.Quote:
why if these men are guilty can we not try them? why if they are innocent do they hold them? why if they are human can we torture them? and why is this covered up and swallowed by americans who believe that it's okay to torture his fellow man?
Now, let me ask you, if these people are guilty, (And I don't mean they're 'naughty boys' as you so ineptly put it.) they're going to make more than a few claims in order to bring down the US in the world's eyes. I'll believe it when I see it, not when some terrorists with grudges make claims.
but most of those men are not terrorist. they are free and innocent. and if they are not innocent why did we release them?
begg did not confess to funding al-qaeda. he funded the muslim struggle in bosnia and visted there. and visiting training camps (he denies he took part) is not a crime. and it certainly is not a crime worth 3 years of life and torture.
if these men were a true danger they would not be released. and if they were truly not being harmed then we would be able to see so. hiding facts just rouses suspicion.
inuse wikipedia alot because of the way it is organised and so is useful when needing mass links.
and the "naughty boy" thing. well i don't believe he really committed a crime. he fought for what he believed in and there is no evidence that he committed a crime. and the thread in which it orginated also had torture referred to as "icky things" so i thought reducing it to that level of language was reasonable.
to breach human rights and those who cover up such an act should be in the hague right now.
How do you know they're guilty? So, because it's not convenient for us to give them a trial right now, we can hold them indefinitely, without even the necessity of probable cause?Quote:
If they are guilty, trying them might require revealing some severely classified information and, as we're still smack in the middle of the war on terror, it's hardly prudent to tell the world who your agents and contacts are.
I agree that Cloud No.9's "sources" aren't exactly conclusive(to make an understatement). I don't know what's going on at Gitmo, and this new CNN thing surely doesn't settle any point of the debate. It's all-but pointless to discuss it.