R = L = N = E = K = N = ...... = U

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Originally Posted by aisle_s

Before them there were many sorceresses made by Hyne (there had to be, or else how could we have 2 sorceresses in one time period?) but they were hunted etc. and eventually there were only 2 sorceress bloodlines, the one that eventually passed its powers onto Edea, and the other to Adel.

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It can and should be assumed that Hyne (asuming Hyne was a real figure and not a mythological device) passed the Witch Embodiment on to Edea, but only in the sense that Hyne was the progenitor of the Embodiment. Edea's powers were explicitly received from Ultimecia, meaning that any Sorceresses preceding Edea were and are irrelevant to her power.

Your main point is correct, as Ultimecia would have certainly inherited the Witch Embodiment from Rinoa; Ultimecia effectively takes on the entirety of the power at the end of the game. This means that even if other Sorceresses did exist during Rinoa's era (something the game does not wholly preclude), all of their power would have eventually "trickled down" to Ultimecia.

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It can and should be assumed that Hyne (asuming Hyne was a real figure and not a mythological device) passed the Witch Embodiment on to Edea, but only in the sense that Hyne was the progenitor of the Embodiment. Edea's powers were explicitly received from Ultimecia, meaning that any Sorceresses preceding Edea were and are irrelevant to her power.

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Actually, Edea explicitly states that she was already a sorceress BEFORE Ultimecia gives her her powers, hence your conclusion that any sorceresses preceding Edea are irrelevant is incorrect. There was a sorceress before Edea (certainly not Hyne by the way) whom Edea received powers from. Ultimecia simply gave Edea even more powers. Clearly though, we cannot ignore the impact of the first sorceress!

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

Actually, Edea explicitly states that she was already a sorceress BEFORE Ultimecia gives her her powers, hence your conclusion that any sorceresses preceding Edea are irrelevant is incorrect. There was a sorceress before Edea (certainly not Hyne by the way) whom Edea received powers from. Ultimecia simply gave Edea even more powers. Clearly though, we cannot ignore the impact of the first sorceress!

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And clearly, we cannot ignore the plausibility and possibility that Rinoa passed on her sorceress powers to Ultimecia. So, even if Rinoa is not the same person as Ultimecia, the essence of Rinoa's powers have been passed on to Ultimecia so she is someone related to Ultimecia. Therefore, Rinoa is in part responsible for the coming about of Ultimecia, which explains some of the game's unanswered questions. (Although, if Rinoa is actually the same person as Ultimecia, which I have argued in a previous thread, it would explain the unanswered questions in the game even more).

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Originally Posted by The Last Oath

Lets just agree that Final Fantasy is our Religon as Lychon stats.

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Just saw this. Classic! :)

-LYCHON

Unanswered questions? Like what?

The only thing the R=U theory explains to me is who Ultimecia is and where she came from...yet, I don't believe the R=U theory anyway so...

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Originally Posted by aisle_s

Unanswered questions? Like what?

The only thing the R=U theory explains to me is who Ultimecia is and where she came from...yet, I don't believe the R=U theory anyway so...

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There are many unanswered questions that remain after the game ends which we do not know for sure:

1.) Who really is Ultimecia?
2.) What are her true motives for time compression?
3.) What is the significance and meaning behind Ultimecia’s words (both when she is possessing Edea and when she is herself)?
4.) What is the mystery behind the fact that Ultimecia extracted Griever from Squall’s mind?
5.) Who really is Ellone and what is the explanation for her powers and her significance in the game?
6.) Since Ultimecia has altered the past by interfering with Squall and Rinoa's time, what really would have happened if she had not attempted time compression?

Not only this, but when I last finished the game, I had about 10 other significant questions which still remain unanswered, but they ellude me at this moment. As I have argued in the thread of "what is Ultimecia's real name?" the above questions are answered and explained perfectly if Rinoa really is Ultimecia. It doesn't prove anything, but it at least yields plausibility and possibility to the R=U theory.

-LYCHON

It must of course be mentioned that all the above questions, save that of Ellone's powers (which is not explained by R=U either) and the one concerning the altering of time (but that only because I advocate a static time theory in FF8, hence the question does not apply), can equally well be answered if you simply assume that Ultimecia = Ultimecia, and that's that.

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

It must of course be mentioned that all the above questions, save that of Ellone's powers (which is not explained by R=U either) and the one concerning the altering of time (but that only because I advocate a static time theory in FF8, hence the question does not apply), can equally well be answered if you simply assume that Ultimecia = Ultimecia, and that's that.

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I never said they couldn't be answered by a different scenario. And besides even in the R=U theory, Ultimecia would still be Ultimecia in her time but in the past she would have been Rinoa.

Also, your static time theory doesn't bode well with me. Ultimecia manipulates time in the game, so time is by no means purely static or linear throughout the game's plot. As I have already pointed out, since Ultimecia interferes with the past, Rinoa and Squall's time is altered and will result in a different future than the one Ultimecia comes from. The only reason that Ultimecia did not blink out of existence before she was defeated was because she had already acquired a defense against the linear time effect, and continued to survive (by beginning time compression) even when her timeline was temporarilly merged with Squall and Rinoa's timeline.

Therefore, even if Rinoa really was Ultimecia, it may now come about that Rinoa will never become Ultimecia, hence the game's happy ending. If Ultimecia had not interferred with Rinoa and Squall's time, then perhaps Rinoa would have been locked away in the Sorceress Memorial for real, and eventually released in future generations only to become embittered over continued persecution and the death of her lover Squall. Hence, she might possibly then become Ultimecia and want to compress time and end all of her pain.

-LYCHON

P.S. Also, if you want to keep arguing but you do not like long posts such as the ones before, then keep the responses short like mine above. In this way we can argue one idea at a time and come to a logical conclusion for each question. But if you do want longer responses, I will be happy to oblige.

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Also, your static time theory doesn't bode well with me. Ultimecia manipulates time in the game, so time is by no means purely static or linear throughout the game's plot.

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I disagree. Ultimecia's supposed changing of the past can merely be seen as another event set in stone by the fate constantly referred to in the game. One may see her as simply fulfilling her 'destiny' and that in reality, nothing is changing through all the time-travelling occuring in the game (ie. Ultimecia's presence in the past has always been an immutable event on the line of time, along with the event in which she travels back in time).

However, the discussion of whether or not time is static or dynamic is still one which is left open. I advocate static time, and can use it to explain everything in the game pertaining time-travelling. On the other hand, dynamic time can also be used to explain everything. I merely advocate static time because I believe it is the simpler and more elegant theory. My specific views on the matter (along with a dynamic time explanation as well) can be found in the FAQ I know you are familiar with, so I won't discuss this further here.

The rest of your arguments rest on changing the past, and since I have already made myself quite clear in previous threads what I think of your scenario, I see no reason to argue further on the matter. All my own views can be found in the FAQ previously referred to anyway.

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

I disagree. Ultimecia's supposed changing of the past can merely be seen as another event set in stone by the fate constantly referred to in the game. One may see her as simply fulfilling her 'destiny' and that in reality, nothing is changing through all the time-travelling occuring in the game.

However, the discussion of whether or not time is static or dynamic is still one which is left open. I advocate static time, and can use it to explain everything in the game pertaining time-travelling. On the other hand, dynamic time can also be used to explain everything. I merely advocate static time because I believe it is the simpler and more elegant theory. My specific views on the matter (along with a dynamic time explanation as well) can be found in the FAQ I know you are familiar with, so I won't discuss this further here.

The rest of your arguments rest on changing the past, and since I have already made myself quite clear in previous threads what I think of your scenario, I see no reason to argue further on the matter. All my own views can be found in the FAQ previously referred to anyway.

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The 'fate constantly referred to in the game'? This does not change simple logic about the effects of time manipulation. Your impression of the in-game dialogue may be that all events are fatefully set in stone, but I do not agree with this interpretation. If Ultimecia had never interferred with Squall and Rinoa's time, then the events of their lives would be very different than what we saw in the game. Concepts of 'destiny' and 'fate' are subjective, so let's stick with solid logic.

The rest of my arguments do not depend on the changing of the past. I am merely discussing one of my arguments which deals with the past being changed because someone from the future interferred (i.e. Ultimecia).

-LYCHON

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The 'fate constantly referred to in the game'? This does not change simple logic about the effects of time manipulation. Your impression of the in-game dialogue may be that all events are fatefully set in stone, but I do not agree with this interpretation. If Ultimecia had never interferred with Squall and Rinoa's time, then the events of their lives would be very different than what we saw in the game. Concepts of 'destiny' and 'fate' are subjective, so let's stick with solid logic.

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Destiny and fate are indeed subjective, but this is a game, and since Square decided to include allusions to fate all over their game ("Liberi Fatali" even means children of destiny, and that's one of the main musical themes of the game; Ultimecia further speaks of Squall being 'destined' to defeat her etc. etc.), this must be taken into account, and cannot simply be dismissed.

As I said though, the question of whether or not time is static or dynamic is an open question. I have helped develop a static time concept which can be used to explain the time-travelling events in the game. However, a dynamic time theory has also been created. They both work, it's just that they differ in what 'simple logic' is assumed to apply to time in FF8 (an assumption which, considering that FF8 is a game and not the real world, is necessarily based more on opinion then fact).

You say you agree with dynamic time; that's fine with me. I disagree, but cannot say you are wrong. I hope you can respect that we merely disagree here.

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The rest of my arguments do not depend on the changing of the past. I am merely discussing one of my arguments which deals with the past being changed because someone from the future interferred (i.e. Ultimecia).

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Exactly; you are discussing an argument which is based on the notion that the past can be changed. Since I think that time in FF8 is set in stone, there is really no point for me to argue further because a key assumption on your scenario is based on something I simply disagree with.

Again, my views on the actual R=U scenario you describe I believe are well recorded elsewhere.

Sir B.

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

Destiny and fate are indeed subjective, but this is a game, and since Square decided to include allusions to fate all over their game ("Liberi Fatali" even means children of destiny, and that's one of the main musical themes of the game; Ultimecia further speaks of Squall being 'destined' to defeat her etc. etc.), this must be taken into account, and cannot simply be dismissed.

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Exactly, this is a game, not reality. Therefore the concepts of what can be possible and what can be plausible are bent to an even greater degree. Fate and destiny become even more subjective, and the plausibility and possibility of Rinoa being Ultimecia fits quite nicely within this fantasy. Your defense about destiny is flawed because it is based on your interpretation. Sure, destiny may have played a part in the game, but this does not change the fact that Rinoa’s timeline has been changed because Ultimecia interfered with the past.

The fact that Ultimecia speaks of Squall being destined to defeat her only goes to support the R=U theory. If Ultimecia really is Rinoa, then she may still possess some remnant of her previous self. Her only purpose in life is to achieve time compression after she has been persecuted for so long and her lover Squall has long since died. Therefore, she may very well knowingly go to her death by beginning time compression and altering the past which will now result in Rinoa having her destined ‘happy’ future instead of the incorrect ‘sad’ future where she becomes Ultimecia.

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

As I said though, the question of whether or not time is static or dynamic is an open question. I have helped develop a static time concept which can be used to explain the time-travelling events in the game. However, a dynamic time theory has also been created. They both work, it's just that they differ in what 'simple logic' is assumed to apply to time in FF8 (an assumption which, considering that FF8 is a game and not the real world, is necessarily based more on opinion then fact).

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Time is not static in Final Fantasy VIII. If you refuse to see this then you are refusing to acknowledge the entire premise of the game. Ultimecia’s mere interference in the past is altering her future, but she is unaffected because she begins time compression. The only way she can survive is if time compression is sustained, but that does not happen and Ultimecia is defeated. Also, Ultimecia’s and Squall’s timelines are merged together by the beginning of time compression. There is no way that time is linear or ‘static’ in the game. If you want to support that theory, that is your choice.

The dynamic theory of the Final Fantasy VIII plot works much better than any kind of ‘static’ theory. It is simple logic to know that if someone interferes in the past from the future they will leave a changing mark on the past, especially if they cause so much trouble as Ultimecia did. ‘Dynamic’ is not even the correct word to use when describing time in the Final Fantasy VIII universe. The correct word to use is ‘non-linear.’

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

You say you agree with dynamic time; that's fine with me. I disagree, but cannot say you are wrong. I hope you can respect that we merely disagree here.

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We do disagree about the qualities of time in Final Fantasy VIII. I go one above you by stating that I completely disagree with any notion of a ‘static’ or ‘linear’ timeline in Final Fantasy VIII.

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

Exactly; you are discussing an argument which is based on the notion that the past can be changed. Since I think that time in FF8 is set in stone, there is really no point for me to argue further because a key assumption on your scenario is based on something I simply disagree with.

Again, my views on the actual R=U scenario you describe I believe are well recorded elsewhere.

Sir B.

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Time is not set in stone in Final Fantasy VIII. What don’t you understand about the concept that if someone from the future meddles with the past, then the past timeline will have their actions imprinted as events? It is simple logic: Ultimecia is from the future and she interfered with the past. If Ultimecia had never attempted time compression and remained confined to her own future time, then the events of Final Fantasy VIII would never have transpired the way they did, and Rinoa and Squall’s futures would have been very different than what they will now be after the end of Final Fantasy VIII.

The logic here can be disagreed with, but it cannot be disproved. Do you honestly believe that the events of Squall’s and Rinoa’s lives would have been the same even if Ultimecia had never interfered with their time period? It’s preposterous and goes against reason and rationale.

P.S. I asked you before to keep the posts short and sweet so that I can keep my own responses short and you don’t start complaining again about how long the posts are. Well you did not want to do this, so my posts will only double in size from now on. :)

-LYCHON

Sorry to butt in...but...

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Originally Posted by Lychon

Exactly, this is a game, not reality. Therefore the concepts of what can be possible and what can be plausible are bent to an even greater degree. Fate and destiny become even more subjective, and the plausibility and possibility of Rinoa being Ultimecia fits quite nicely within this fantasy. Your defense about destiny is flawed because it is based on your interpretation. Sure, destiny may have played a part in the game, but this does not change the fact that Rinoa’s timeline has been changed because Ultimecia interfered with the past.

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If time /is/ indeed static (and I agree with S. Bahamut on this) then Ultimecia never did or could interfere with the past. It was all pre-determined that she would travel back into Squall's time, possess whoever, do this, attack that, release whomever and thus through these events Squall and Co. learn of her existence and aims. It is also set in stone that they will travel forward, defeat Ultimecia, whom in turn will return to Edea's time at the orphanage and forfeit her powers to her.

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The fact that Ultimecia speaks of Squall being destined to defeat her only goes to support the R=U theory. If Ultimecia really is Rinoa, then she may still possess some remnant of her previous self. Her only purpose in life is to achieve time compression after she has been persecuted for so long and her lover Squall has long since died. Therefore, she may very well knowingly go to her death by beginning time compression and altering the past which will now result in Rinoa having her destined ‘happy’ future instead of the incorrect ‘sad’ future where she becomes Ultimecia.

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Ultimecia could also know that Squall and Co. are her destined destroyers through history books. The moment of time compression in Squall's present and the whole fear the world had for Ultimecia would undoubtedly be documented, thus giving Ultimecia access to knowledge of the SeeDs whom would ultimately bring her to an end.

As for Ultimecia wanting to compress time on one single moment, in which she is with Squall, is completely wrong. Ultimecia's plans to compress time were /not/ to see Squall, but to become an all powerful being. She was not going to stop on one point for the rest of her life, but absorb time. When you scan her final form it says something along the lines of : "absorbing time as we speak" or something to that effect. So how could she live in a point of time that she had 'absorbed'? Her goal was to become all-powerful, not staying with a lover.

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Time is not static in Final Fantasy VIII. If you refuse to see this then you are refusing to acknowledge the entire premise of the game. Ultimecia’s mere interference in the past is altering her future, but she is unaffected because she begins time compression. The only way she can survive is if time compression is sustained, but that does not happen and Ultimecia is defeated. Also, Ultimecia’s and Squall’s timelines are merged together by the beginning of time compression. There is no way that time is linear or ‘static’ in the game. If you want to support that theory, that is your choice.

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That doesn't make sense to me. If time is indeed static, Squall and Ultimecia's time-lines had already 'merged' (I don't understand what you mean by this) since the beginning of time, because time compression had already left it's 'mark' (if it leaves one at all) on all of time.

Let us suppose for a moment that you are right and Ultimecia can in fact change time itself. Why would her time period not be affected? She tries to kill Rinoa on several occasions (depending if she's in your party in the battles with Edea), would that not in turn be killing Ultimecia? Well you say that Ultimecia's interference does not effect her
because she begins time compression, but that doesn't make sense. If for some reason Time Compression stops her from feeling the effects of what she changes in the past (which I don't see why it would), it still wouldn't protect her if she killed Rinoa PRIOR to beginning time compression, and she does try to kill Rinoa before that moment when she fights Squall and Co. as Edea.

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The dynamic theory of the Final Fantasy VIII plot works much better than any kind of ‘static’ theory. It is simple logic to know that if someone interferes in the past from the future they will leave a changing mark on the past, especially if they cause so much trouble as Ultimecia did. ‘Dynamic’ is not even the correct word to use when describing time in the Final Fantasy VIII universe. The correct word to use is ‘non-linear.’

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The static theory works in this situation too. It was already pre-determined by fate that Ultimecia would cause so much trouble, so in reality she did not change time at all.

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Time is not set in stone in Final Fantasy VIII. What don’t you understand about the concept that if someone from the future meddles with the past, then the past timeline will have their actions imprinted as events? It is simple logic: Ultimecia is from the future and she interfered with the past. If Ultimecia had never attempted time compression and remained confined to her own future time, then the events of Final Fantasy VIII would never have transpired the way they did, and Rinoa and Squall’s futures would have been very different than what they will now be after the end of Final Fantasy VIII.

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Once again, this theory works too, but the idea and evidence that time is set in stone works much better. Ultimecia wouldn't stay in her future because fate would not allow it, everything is predetermined! She and everyone else may have thought they would be changing time, choosing a destiny, when in reality they are only following one path...they cannot change that path because they only can choose once, and the choice they make will ALWAYS have been predetermined.

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The logic here can be disagreed with, but it cannot be disproved. Do you honestly believe that the events of Squall’s and Rinoa’s lives would have been the same even if Ultimecia had never interfered with their time period? It’s preposterous and goes against reason and rationale.

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Of course it would be different if Ultimecia never came to the past...but she would've no matter what if time was set in stone.

*answers the initial question*

Well, yeah, wouldn't she have to be? Unless there's like, more than just Rinoa as a Sorceress at that point...which...

Then I suppose she'd just have to be, if Rinoa was the only one left who's a Sorceress, and it just gets passed down through time, it'd have to hit Ulti eventually. :cat:

Well, does it really matter all that much? Ah well, this is alot better than those godawful "OMG Rinoa must be Ultimecia!" theories. :cat:

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Originally Posted by aisle_s

Sorry to butt in...but...



If time /is/ indeed static (and I agree with S. Bahamut on this) then Ultimecia never did or could interfere with the past. It was all pre-determined that she would travel back into Squall's time, possess whoever, do this, attack that, release whomever and thus through these events Squall and Co. learn of her existence and aims. It is also set in stone that they will travel forward, defeat Ultimecia, whom in turn will return to Edea's time at the orphanage and forfeit her powers to her.



Ultimecia could also know that Squall and Co. are her destined destroyers through history books. The moment of time compression in Squall's present and the whole fear the world had for Ultimecia would undoubtedly be documented, thus giving Ultimecia access to knowledge of the SeeDs whom would ultimately bring her to an end.

As for Ultimecia wanting to compress time on one single moment, in which she is with Squall, is completely wrong. Ultimecia's plans to compress time were /not/ to see Squall, but to become an all powerful being. She was not going to stop on one point for the rest of her life, but absorb time. When you scan her final form it says something along the lines of : "absorbing time as we speak" or something to that effect. So how could she live in a point of time that she had 'absorbed'? Her goal was to become all-powerful, not staying with a lover.



That doesn't make sense to me. If time is indeed static, Squall and Ultimecia's time-lines had already 'merged' (I don't understand what you mean by this) since the beginning of time, because time compression had already left it's 'mark' (if it leaves one at all) on all of time.

Let us suppose for a moment that you are right and Ultimecia can in fact change time itself. Why would her time period not be affected? She tries to kill Rinoa on several occasions (depending if she's in your party in the battles with Edea), would that not in turn be killing Ultimecia? Well you say that Ultimecia's interference does not effect her
because she begins time compression, but that doesn't make sense. If for some reason Time Compression stops her from feeling the effects of what she changes in the past (which I don't see why it would), it still wouldn't protect her if she killed Rinoa PRIOR to beginning time compression, and she does try to kill Rinoa before that moment when she fights Squall and Co. as Edea.



The static theory works in this situation too. It was already pre-determined by fate that Ultimecia would cause so much trouble, so in reality she did not change time at all.



Once again, this theory works too, but the idea and evidence that time is set in stone works much better. Ultimecia wouldn't stay in her future because fate would not allow it, everything is predetermined! She and everyone else may have thought they would be changing time, choosing a destiny, when in reality they are only following one path...they cannot change that path because they only can choose once, and the choice they make will ALWAYS have been predetermined.



Of course it would be different if Ultimecia never came to the past...but she would've no matter what if time was set in stone.

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You're falsely assuming subjective ideas of fate, destiny, and 'pre-determination.' The entire idea is preposterous because the very events in the game go against fate and destiny. If Ultimecia had never achieved time compression, then Squall and Rinoa's time period would have been significantly different. But Ultimecia did achieve time compression and therefore any set course on which Rinoa's and Squall's timeline were on has been radically altered. Bringing in ideas of 'fate' and 'destiny' is the same as someone defending the validity of the Bible by stating that it is valid because the Bible says it's valid, lol .

-LYCHON

Lychon, these things are pre-determined by FFVIII's big Time-Loop thing. (Ultimecia gives Edea her powers, and the cycle continues, etc.) Which is why these things were 'meant to be' in that sense. :cat: