Rinoa IS You Know Who!! Stop denying it!!!!!!! (Spoilers)

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Originally Posted by Lychon

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Originally Posted by disapointedchild

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Originally Posted by Lychon

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Originally Posted by disapointedchild

So what you are saying that you are going to prove that it is plausible, for R=U. Because truthfully i dont think there is many people here who wont belive it is possible. I believe it is plausible, enough said. But i did elaborate on my previous post as to why you theory wouldnt work.
But i am pretty sure everybody knows it is plausible.

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Precisely. I believe I have already proved it plausible for Rinoa to be Ultimecia. As I stated in the very last sentence of my first post in this thread, next I intend to prove the probability that Rinoa is Ultimecia.

Since you seemingly admit to the plausibility of Rinoa being Ultimecia, then you must surely disagree with the FFVIII FAQ statement that it is "not possible" for Rinoa to be Ultimecia. Hence, (by dialectical deduction) you must surely believe that the FFVIII FAQ in this forum to be erroneous in reference to the R=U theory.


-LYCHON

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Well maybe it shouldnt say "not possible." I personnally have never looked at the faq, so i thought it said...

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Originally Posted by LYCHON

the FFVIII FAQ incorrectly states that Rinoa is not Ultimecia

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And thats why i was arguing. The FAQ i believe would be right is saying this b/c the faq should state fact. The reasong this would be fact is because like i said earlier WE, can only speculate and believe R=U, but never be able to say 100%, so as a basis the FAQ should say Rinoa is not Ultimecia.

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That is logically flawed. Just because the affirmative side of an argument cannot be proven without a doubt does not mean that the negative should be automatically taken as default. The FAQ is misleading and incorrect, especially in the face of plausible and possible proof that Rinoa may in fact be Ultimecia. It should instead read something along the lines of "based on the information provided in the FFVIII game and the Ultimania guide, it is unconvincing that Rinoa is or ever will become Ultimecia."

-LYCHON

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Well here is how i see it.
I am going to make up a scenerio, lets say some ladies husband just died. Now there is a lot of speculation, and it is plausible that the lady killed her husband, but untill the police can prove this to 100% on the official record it has to say she is innocent. The Faq i believe is like the official record.

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Originally Posted by disapointedchild

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Originally Posted by Lychon

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Originally Posted by disapointedchild

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Originally Posted by Lychon

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Originally Posted by disapointedchild

So what you are saying that you are going to prove that it is plausible, for R=U. Because truthfully i dont think there is many people here who wont belive it is possible. I believe it is plausible, enough said. But i did elaborate on my previous post as to why you theory wouldnt work.
But i am pretty sure everybody knows it is plausible.

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Precisely. I believe I have already proved it plausible for Rinoa to be Ultimecia. As I stated in the very last sentence of my first post in this thread, next I intend to prove the probability that Rinoa is Ultimecia.

Since you seemingly admit to the plausibility of Rinoa being Ultimecia, then you must surely disagree with the FFVIII FAQ statement that it is "not possible" for Rinoa to be Ultimecia. Hence, (by dialectical deduction) you must surely believe that the FFVIII FAQ in this forum to be erroneous in reference to the R=U theory.


-LYCHON

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Well maybe it shouldnt say "not possible." I personnally have never looked at the faq, so i thought it said...

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Originally Posted by LYCHON

the FFVIII FAQ incorrectly states that Rinoa is not Ultimecia

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And thats why i was arguing. The FAQ i believe would be right is saying this b/c the faq should state fact. The reasong this would be fact is because like i said earlier WE, can only speculate and believe R=U, but never be able to say 100%, so as a basis the FAQ should say Rinoa is not Ultimecia.

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That is logically flawed. Just because the affirmative side of an argument cannot be proven without a doubt does not mean that the negative should be automatically taken as default. The FAQ is misleading and incorrect, especially in the face of plausible and possible proof that Rinoa may in fact be Ultimecia. It should instead read something along the lines of "based on the information provided in the FFVIII game and the Ultimania guide, it is unconvincing that Rinoa is or ever will become Ultimecia."

-LYCHON

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Well here is how i see it.
I am going to make up a scenerio, lets say some ladies husband just died. Now there is a lot of speculation, and it is plausible that the lady killed her husband, but untill the police can prove this to 100% on the official record it has to say she is innocent. The Faq i believe is like the official record.

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We're not talking about some random, whimsical concoction of someone's overactive imagination. We're talking about a theory which has definite support from in-game evidence and the game's manual. Anyone can make up a theory on their own such as Irvine or Squall actually being Ultimecia. Such theories, however, are unsupported by the game and therefore warrant far less consideration and discussion than R=U does. I will not go into this evidence here because it has already been discussed in the other threads about the R=U theory. Instead, I will reserve it for the “probability” section of my proof. But as for now, R=U lives!

-LYCHON

Indeed, Indeed, who dares deny it?

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Originally Posted by Lychon

We're not talking about some random, whimsical concoction of someone's overactive imagination. We're talking about a theory which has definite support from in-game evidence and the game's manual. Anyone can make up a theory on their own such as Irvine or Squall actually being Ultimecia. Such theories, however, are unsupported by the game and therefore warrant far less consideration and discussion than R=U does. I will not go into this evidence here because it has already been discussed in the other threads about the R=U theory. Instead, I will reserve it for the “probability” section of my proof. But as for now, R=U lives!

-LYCHON

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Well you can believe it, but R=U has never lived, because when you use the equall sign, you are saying that both side of the equation are the same. And You cant say rinoa is ultimacia, especially since YOU are only trying to prove that it is PLAUSIBLE.

For the record, i dont deny it, i just believe the search to prove it is pointless, you never will, no matter how much theory you have, because theory is just theory.

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Originally Posted by disapointedchild

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Originally Posted by Lychon

We're not talking about some random, whimsical concoction of someone's overactive imagination. We're talking about a theory which has definite support from in-game evidence and the game's manual. Anyone can make up a theory on their own such as Irvine or Squall actually being Ultimecia. Such theories, however, are unsupported by the game and therefore warrant far less consideration and discussion than R=U does. I will not go into this evidence here because it has already been discussed in the other threads about the R=U theory. Instead, I will reserve it for the “probability” section of my proof. But as for now, R=U lives!

-LYCHON

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Well you can believe it, but R=U has never lived, because when you use the equall sign, you are saying that both side of the equation are the same. And You cant say rinoa is ultimacia, especially since YOU are only trying to prove that it is PLAUSIBLE.

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What the hell are you talking about? "R=U" is a shortened way of representing the argument over whether Rinoa is or is not Ultimecia. You're not pulling that semantics crap, are you? Stick with the logic!

P.S. And yes, R=U has lived and is living! (Once again, by "R=U lives!", I mean that the argument R=U is alive. This very thread is testimony to that! Kindly stop pulling stupid semantics crap).

-LYCHON

Alright,

You are basing all of this on our earths, physics and concepts of time, and its manipulation. But the world of Final Fantasy 8 is nothing like our world at all. Lets take for instance the MAGIC, being used in the game. The fact that you can circle the world in about 10 seconds. They would most likely have to be traveling faster than light, and Einstien said it is impossible for anything to travel that fast. And if our concepts did apply to them, and they were travelling at or close to the speed of light then during regular gameplay you would already be acheiving some sort of time travel, into the future, which you arent. I am just saying, things that apply here dont there. So you can not adapt our concepts to that world, therefor making any assuption you have, not plausible.

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Originally Posted by disapointedchild

Alright,

You are basing all of this on our earths, physics and concepts of time, and its manipulation. But the world of Final Fantasy 8 is nothing like our world at all. Lets take for instance the MAGIC, being used in the game. The fact that you can circle the world in about 10 seconds. They would most likely have to be traveling faster than light, and Einstien said it is impossible for anything to travel that fast. And if our concepts did apply to them, and they were travelling at or close to the speed of light then during regular gameplay you would already be acheiving some sort of time travel, into the future, which you arent. I am just saying, things that apply here dont there. So you can not adapt our concepts to that world, therefor making any assuption you have, not plausible.

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Your above quote goes without saying. I've actually used the exact same argument against those who have argued on the negative side of the R=U theory so it’s quite comical to see it turned against me now, lol . Of course the physics of Final Fantasy VIII appear to work differently than the physics in our world, but we do not have enough information to decipher a set of universal laws within the Final Fantasy VIII universe and create entirely new methods of quantum mechanics and relativity operations. And since most of the anti R=U arguments are based off a system which more or less adapts our own physical laws to the Final Fantasy universe, it does not weaken my argument when I do the same since I am responding in kind.

Lastly, it cannot be stated with definitude that the physical laws in Final Fantasy VIII are really different than the laws governing our own universe. Neither you nor I have had a part in creating this game so we cannot discard the possibility that the creators envisioned the Final Fantasy VIII universe as a futuristic version of our own, with advances in the areas of aviation, weaponry, physics, chemistry, etc… In fact, the forefront of physics today in our world involves theories that contradict Einstein’s belief that nothing can travel faster than the speed of light. So you see, you were in fact assuming just as much as I was when you wrote your above statement. Regardless of this, however, there is still no excuse for stating with absolute certainty that it is “not possible” for Rinoa to be Ultimecia.

P.S. You're really pulling out the big guns now, aren't ya? Bow Down!!!! lol

-LYCHON

Your arguments are not very convincing I'm afraid.

You say time compression etc. renders regular lifespans and such irrelevant, which may be so, but you do not actually explain how this can be used to allow R=U in a plausible way backed up by the game. It's not enough just stating that the "time stuff in the game makes it all weird" if you don't also provide a highly specific explanation of how this can be used to allow Rinoa to become Ultimecia (based on the game, obviously).

Next, you indicate that the failed attempt at time compression changed the past, which is all well and good, except for the fact that the game indicates strongly that the past cannot be changed. Ellone states it outright, Squall disbelieves her but finds out she is right, Edea receives Ultimecia's powers at the orphanage like she says happened, Ultimecia is defeated as she seemingly struggles to avoid her fate, and fate and destiny (generally two things which would prevent changing the past) are generally important aspects of the game.

But even assuming you had provided a convincing argument demonstrating the likelyhood of time being dynamic, the way in which you use this as an R=U argument is highly suspect. You basically say that this means that even if Rinoa became Ultimecia before, the game may not depict any events foreshadowing this because the past has been changed. This is clearly a very poor argument which only has the purpose of hiding the fact that the game does not indicate R=U in any way.

I can't see anything new so far in your arguments which justify your claim of having proven the possibility and plausibility (how can you have proven plausibility when you haven't even given any ingame hints yet?).

Now, it should of course be said, that R=U is obviously possible in the sense that ANYTHING is possible (since we never see the events between the end of the game and the fight with Ultimecia in the future), but since anything is thus technically possible, a proof of possibility is completely insignificant unless it is coupled with a proof of plausibility and probability. So far, you have given neither. I'm waiting with excitement though...

Well I am in no way going to bow down. So far you have only proved that it is possible, which is no fancy feat. You are just going the route of the theoretical physics. Which is fine, i just thought i would disprove your theory, but let me stress again that does not mean i dont believe rinoa could be ultimecia. Yes of course you theory could be right, it could also be wrong, like you said, neither of us created the game, so we dont know, nor will we EVER know.

If you are arguing that they should change the faq, i dont think its going to happen.

So, cool theory.

But lets just say the creators did intend ff8 worls to be a futuristic version of our own world, that still doesnt explain why the Ragnorok can traval around the whole globe in seconds. One thing we know is that the speed of light is a constant. No matter what, light always travels at the same speed, therefore velocity is constant. Velocity is the change in distance over the change in time. The distance becomes a constant, so the only thing that can change is time, therefore speeding it up, as in I think it is Einstiens twin theory. But this doesnt happen in ff8, therefore this proves that the laws which bind us, or completly diff from the ones that bind ff8, therefor making your statements unclausible because they are based on our world, not ff8.

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

Your arguments are not very convincing I'm afraid.

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Oh, I believe they are. I do not even have to defend them because the logic and physics discussion speaks for itself. Just for kicks, let’s begin the old argument and disprove your statements one by one, shall we?

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

You say time compression etc. renders regular lifespans and such irrelevant, which may be so, but you do not actually explain how this can be used to allow R=U in a plausible way backed up by the game. It's not enough just stating that the "time stuff in the game makes it all weird" if you don't also provide a highly specific explanation of how this can be used to allow Rinoa to become Ultimecia (based on the game, obviously).

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You are putting words into my mouth to better formulate an antithesis. I never stated that compression creates regular life spans (“lifespans” is actually two words, by the way). The explanation as to why time compression makes “normal life spans” irrelevant is actually quite obvious. It proves that simply because sorceresses have normal life spans does not mean that they are limited to that period of time. I explained in my post the details of this and never simply stated “time stuff in the game makes it all weird.” Ah, ah, ah, I think you’re up to your old ways again here, my dear Sir Bahamut. Try next time to address my arguments directly, instead of supplying your own comments to better few your counter.

The explanation nullifies the reason cited for why Rinoa cannot be Ultimecia. That reason of course is the claim in the Ultimania guide that sorceresses have normal life spans.

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

Next, you indicate that the failed attempt at time compression changed the past, which is all well and good, except for the fact that the game indicates strongly that the past cannot be changed. Ellone states it outright, Squall disbelieves her but finds out she is right, Edea receives Ultimecia's powers at the orphanage like she says happened, Ultimecia is defeated as she seemingly struggles to avoid her fate, and fate and destiny (generally two things which would prevent changing the past) are generally important aspects of the game.

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You misinterpret what Ellone meant. Her words alone in that part of the game can spark an entirely new debate. In the context of her words, Ellone was referring to her own abilities and the transposition of conscience over time, not to the physical phenomenon of time compression. The very principle of time compression has already proven that the past can and does change in the Final Fantasy VIII universe. Not only that, but time compression also nullifies current Earth theories about time manipulation, such as the theory you brought in your last argument by Brian Greene.

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

But even assuming you had provided a convincing argument demonstrating the likelyhood of time being dynamic, the way in which you use this as an R=U argument is highly suspect. You basically say that this means that even if Rinoa became Ultimecia before, the game may not depict any events foreshadowing this because the past has been changed. This is clearly a very poor argument which only has the purpose of hiding the fact that the game does not indicate R=U in any way.

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Well, given that the argument I provided was in fact quite convincing and quite destructive to your own theories (sorry about that), I retain continued confidence in the R=U theory. Not only does the game indicate R=U in several ways which I have specifically argued with you before, but the idea that Rinoa will not become Ultimecia due to the past being changed is actually quite sound when you consider the repercussions of time compression.

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

I can't see anything new so far in your arguments which justify your claim of having proven the possibility and plausibility (how can you have proven plausibility when you haven't even given any ingame hints yet?).

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Again with the in-game hints? You must really like those “in-game” hints! Those have already been discussed many times in many other threads dealing with the theory of R=U, but they do not prove the plausibility and possibility of the theory to the extant that logical and metaphysical arguments do (such as the one supplied by me at the top of this thread).

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

Now, it should of course be said, that R=U is obviously possible in the sense that ANYTHING is possible (since we never see the events between the end of the game and the fight with Ultimecia in the future), but since anything is thus technically possible, a proof of possibility is completely insignificant unless it is coupled with a proof of plausibility and probability. So far, you have given neither. I'm waiting with excitement though...

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Not only is it possible, but it is both plausible and probable. I haven’t yet supplied a post which deals with the probability of the R=U theory in this thread, but I have already proven the possibility and probability of the theory far beyond any whimsical concoction like, oh say….Irvine getting a sex change and becoming Ultimecia. (Ring a bell here?)
I understand you need to validate yourself by crusading against R=U, but with my latest work, I believe your efforts to be all in vain. I look forward to your response so we can continue our previous argument. Perhaps this time you’ll actually continue arguing instead of saying “Oh this is my final post…” lol

-LYCHON

Nevermind. It is obvious that your stance since last time we argued has not changed one bit, so I won't bother wasting my time again. I will however wait around to see your so-called "proof" of probability, just to see if you can actually find some startling new argument (though I doubt it strongly) tipping the favour on the R=U side.

Why are you waiting with giving it, by the way?

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Originally Posted by Lychon

So what does this all mean? It indicates that Ultimecia's leverage in Squall and Rinoa's timeline most conclusively altered their future due to the temporary temporal singularity created by Ultimecia's attempt at time compression. Because of time compression, no lateral or surrogate timelines or universes are generated and no paradoxes are encountered. Instead, we have the realization of one of man's most ancient fantasies: changing the past. When the temporary time compression phenomenon ended upon Ultimecia's destruction and time was "unfolded" from its compressed state to its "normal" state, a reverberation agent created an echo effect from the point in the time dimension signifying Rinoa and Squall's time into and throughout the future, based accordingly upon the changes caused by Ultimecia's interference in the past.

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Ultimecia never change the past she only completed the past(Squall's present).How can you change the future if you dont change the past.So Ultimecia never interfere the past I mean she never change the past even she go back to the past.If Ultimecia can change the past that means She wont died at Squall's hand but she did.So Ultimecia NEVER change the past.
Well You already read that "Rev of the Truth" thread that can explain many things and that thread already prove the game wrong by stated "Edea is no longer a sorceress" but I already prove Edea is STILL a sorceress.

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Originally Posted by Lychon

The very "principle" of time compression has already proven that the past can and does change in the Final Fantasy VIII universe.

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I dont see anything changed in the past in FF8 universe.
If there are,tell me what changed.
Maybe you just misunderstand that "principle"

Well there's only two person can prove who Ultimecia is beside Ultimecia herself.
Edea and Rinoa
If Rinoa is Ultimecia that means Edea already know right away when she sees Rinoa.But Edea doesnt know anything about Rinoa.That means Rinoa CANT be Ultimecia.
When Rinoa and Edea get possesessed by Ultimecia they only know that there's a sorceress called Ultimecia inside their body.So this prove that Ultimecia = Ultimecia.

Personally I dont really believe everything about Ultimania (about FF8) because the authors only making an assumption about the story of the game.(assumption is the thing can be right and wrong)
I think the authors make Sorcererss has the same life span like human is to destroy R=U theory.If they dont make "that" we still argue about R=U theory and maybe we will believe Rinoa is Ultimecia.So they make that to destroy R=U theory for good.

We dont need plausibility or possibility but we need Truth.

"Ultimecia lives in the future where none of us can technically exist" words of Laguna

When you fight Adel in the Lunatic Pandora you enter Time Travel...and you batle sorceresses from across generations you fight at least three sorceresses which means that about 100 years have passed into the future.
So Rinoa would be already death by that time.

If that´s not prove enough then you will notice Ultimecia as an axent, she doesn´t speak normal english while Rinoa does.

So stating that U=R is false just like that.

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

Nevermind. It is obvious that your stance since last time we argued has not changed one bit, so I won't bother wasting my time again. I will however wait around to see your so-called "proof" of probability, just to see if you can actually find some startling new argument (though I doubt it strongly) tipping the favour on the R=U side.

Why are you waiting with giving it, by the way?

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I am waiting because I first want to converse about the current topic of the possibility and plausibility of Rinoa being Ultimecia, which I have already proved. I just want to see people who deny the possibility of R=U attempt to disprove it. So far, no one has even ventured a worthy endeavor.

I think that you made the correct decision not to argue this time, not because I think that you cannot argue (on the contrary, I believe you argue exceptionally well, despite your sophistry), but because there truly is no point to you arguing with me. The reason for this is because my main contention is the conclusion that it IS possible and plausible for Rinoa to be Ultimecia. You have already stated that you at least partly agree with this in previous threads, so therefore I am only contradicting you in minor points rather than in the big picture.

That is also the main reason behind this entire post: it seems incorrect to me for the FFVIII FAQ on these forums to state that R=U is "not possible", especially when it implies that such a notion is presented and supported by canon.

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Originally Posted by disapointedchild

Well I am in no way going to bow down. So far you have only proved that it is possible, which is no fancy feat. You are just going the route of the theoretical physics. Which is fine, i just thought i would disprove your theory, but let me stress again that does not mean i dont believe rinoa could be ultimecia. Yes of course you theory could be right, it could also be wrong, like you said, neither of us created the game, so we dont know, nor will we EVER know.

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Oh, you of course do need to bow down personally, but your argument has already done so for you since it has been qualified as inconsequential. My original intent WAS to prove that R=U was possible (which I have done), and since you have just admitted that I have proved it in your above quote, you have delved into hypocrisy by continuing to support the statement in the FFVIII FAQ that states R=U “is not possible” (a direct contradiction).

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Originally Posted by disapointedchild

But lets just say the creators did intend ff8 worls to be a futuristic version of our own world, that still doesnt explain why the Ragnorok can traval around the whole globe in seconds. One thing we know is that the speed of light is a constant. No matter what, light always travels at the same speed, therefore velocity is constant. Velocity is the change in distance over the change in time. The distance becomes a constant, so the only thing that can change is time, therefore speeding it up, as in I think it is Einstiens twin theory. But this doesnt happen in ff8, therefore this proves that the laws which bind us, or completly diff from the ones that bind ff8, therefor making your statements unclausible because they are based on our world, not ff8.

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The realm of science, especially the science of physics, has not been explored to its fullest extent in our own world. Therefore, you cannot assume that in the future there will not be objects that are capable of traveling at the speed of light or even faster than the speed of light.

Second, the speed of light is NOT constant. The speed of light varies based on what it is traveling through (i.e. if it is traveling through vacuum, atmosphere, etc…). In physics, velocity is speed and direction. The laws in our world may very well be exactly the same as the laws in the Final Fantasy VIII world. The only difference may be that we have not yet reached the stage of development that will allow us to manipulate physical forces to the extent that they are manipulated in the Final Fantasy VIII universe. Secondly, as I already mentioned but you purposely overlooked, there are theories on the forefront of physics today that are speculating and formulating concepts that will allow an object to travel faster than the speed of light. Therefore, our universe and the Final Fantasy VIII universe may indeed be governed by EXACTLY the same laws.

Also, since we do not fully understand the physical laws in the Final Fantasy VIII universe, it may be foolish to assume that the Ragnarok is definitely moving faster than the speed of light. There may be other means of transportation that would create similar presentations as seen in the Final Fantasy VIII game that have yet not even been theorized in our own world. :)

P.S. Time is not linear in Final Fantasy VIII, therefore it does “change,” if by change you mean differ from its "normal" continuity.
P.P.S Now will you bow down? Lol

-LYCHON

How do you explain Ultimecias accent then?