Dude lighten up, its not like he killed somebody. It's just a typo.
Dude lighten up, its not like he killed somebody. It's just a typo.
Quote:
Originally posted by Jay Ayanami
We are discussing this topic within the context of "Knight" being any type of unit with Knight abilities. It may not be the right definition, but it is the one which has been established for use within this thread.
That isn't a very good definition of Knight because most knight abilities aren't that good. Battle skill has such a low hit percentage that it is usually better to attack with a normal physical attack. Weapon guard and the Equip abilities are generally worthless because better support and reaction abilities are available.
To save this thread I will say that Knights are a pretty good class as equipment goes but their abilities could be better. There are much better classes you could use but knights arent bad.
We are not debating (or should not be, at least) the term "Knight". I call it "Knight" simple because it has "Knight" in the name. I include Holy Swordsman because it has Knight abilities. It is a sound definition for this reason only. If I was addressing the issue with regard to the difference of ability, then I would use your definition. However, it has been made clear that in this context, the definition includes "all those" Knight classes. It depends on what your need is as to whether or not is a good definition.
Next, let me make it clear that I think Knights have bad act abilities. HOWEVER, this is all overshadowed by the other benefits you get with the Knight class. Thus, overall, they are the best class.
Q. E. D.!!!
Well, here's a list of pro's and con's for the knight class.
Pro:
Able to equip knight swords and heavy armor
Battle Skills are good in theory
High HP and PA
Con:
Low MA and MP
No ranged attacks
Battle skill is extremely unreliable
It's a pretty average class in my opinion. There are other classes that are more useful, like monks and lancers.
In the very title of this thread you say "Knights are the best job class". If you meant to include all the SPECIAL knight related classes that only one person on your team could ever use you should've said "classes". Anyway, it's not like it's that bad. Regular Knights do above average in hypothetical duels due to Knight Swords, Shields, and their ability to chip away at stats. They lose out on Hats though.
If you insist on including all special knights, could you list the specific jobs and the the names of the wielders? (ex: Holy Swordsman - Orlandu)
Also, unlike your first "strat" post at the beginning of the thread, I disagree very much on Grand Helmets and Maximillians being better than Thief Hats and Robe of Lords. If you were truly including people like Orlandu you should've given him a Thief Hat.
Notti, I don't know if you read what I said, but I stated that there would be no point in favoring a Knight over a Holy Swordsman, so it would have been foolish to me to refer exclusively to Knight. I explained why I included Holy Swordsman above.
People fail to be objective; they are too compelled by the suckiness of the Break skill set. My point is that it is the other attributes of the Knight is what makes them the best.
I choose HP over speed simply because Excalibur already caters to that need. While Robe of Lords may increase MA attack power and MP, which each seem to give an advantage, it is again a moot point. Five Knights attacking with Holy is overkill. Adding extra MA is just adding more overkill. MP does not matter at all.
Damn...I can't believe that this thread is STILL going. Yeesh. As far as taking out your knights goes, Lv. 98 Monks should do the trick. Deck them out with the following:
*Jump (with max range)
*Dragon Spirit
*Defense UP
*Move +2
*Black Costume
*Thief Hat
*Bracers
-The problem with weapons in FFT is that they aren't as powerful as fists, in the end. You can give Orlandu an Excalibur, and you wouldn't come close to the capability of damage that a Monk's bare fists would give. Monks usually do 999 damage when that high in level.
-These monks would be a notch harder to hit with Calculator spells on account of an impossible-to-hit level number.
-Even if you can give good damage with your blades, the Defense UP would help compensate for the lack of HP the monks get.
-Dragon Spirit's just plain annoying. At least I'd find it to be annoying if my enemies would reraise themselves.
-Movement is at 6. That's just plain nice.
-Jump would get a low-HP monk out of the way and still cause damage; even if it didn't damage, they can't be hit when in the air.
-The hat gives them a base speed advantage over the knights, if I am not mistaken. Not much good for anything else.
I dunno if this would work or not. I'd say it'd be a close match, especially if you're including Orlandu and the unique knights.
Ok, let's say like everyone else in this thread besides you the term knight was directly defined to the class knight, with the exact same name instead of holy knights, divine knights, arc knights, dark knights, and holy swordsman which just have the name knight in them.
Oh, and considering that everyone besides you who started the topic was confused with the header, I'd say that you should have made it more specific, because we all did think you were talking about knight, as in knight (obvious reasons why...)
Now, let's say it was just knight as in, knights. In that case, would you still say that? It seems like the whole knights issue is a backup in the case some argument came about the original strategy. To me, at least.
Oh yeah, don't forget this strategy assumes that everyone's at level 99. Maybe that's true in your game, which random battle monsters are equal to your level, but that isn't neccessarily the case with everyone. You'd have a bit of a hard time.
I'd have to gree here that thief hat's more useful than the other. +2 speed is a gift from god, and the don'tmove don'tact cancelings come in handy very frequently.
I feel that somewhat your comparings to the referall knight to all classes that look like knights is unfair. I mean, this is the MIDDLE AGES. DUH, most of the special classes would have the knight concept in it. What else do you expect? - -;;
I suppose we should include squire now as a knight class as well, which would make ramza's guts part of the knight class.
Additionally, is it really interesting to compare generic classes with NPC characters? It's not really interesting, (cheat) Orlandu would win every single time.
Yeah, I agree that monks would be able to kill knights very easily, especially if skills from other jobs are allowed. Unfortunately, monks will never do 999 damage under normal circumstances. The formula for barefist damage is PA*[PA*Brave/100]. This amounts to PA^2 with 100 brave. Without level up/down, a monk won't have PA higher than the mid 20's at level 99, meaning they will only do 400-600 damage.Quote:
Originally posted by Kuja Highwind
-The problem with weapons in FFT is that they aren't as powerful as fists, in the end. You can give Orlandu an Excalibur, and you wouldn't come close to the capability of damage that a Monk's bare fists would give. Monks usually do 999 damage when that high in level.
-These monks would be a notch harder to hit with Calculator spells on account of an impossible-to-hit level number.
Also, no one is ever immune to math skill because of being at level 98. For some reason, CT 4 usually targets all units when it's used on the first turn of combat. I don't know why, but it probably means that the number of clock ticks it takes for the math skill person to get a turn is a multiple of 4, so 4 is a factor of everyone's CT.
For the purpose of saving this thread, I'm proposing that knight be defined as the generic job class. No special classes are included here because everyone agrees that they are more powerful than the normal job classes.
Oh yeah, I noticed that with calculator spells as well. Around the first turn or so there's always a ct that hits everyone (or everyone besides the caster).
However, you can't consistantly in such a case, it changes after a little.
*Dude, he's got Haste and I don't. Only all of his team's gonna have CT 100 on turn one, thus making it all the harder to hit me with his lousy-cheap-skate Calculator Holy. Who knows about Height or exp? It could all very well help me in him not hitting me with those Calculator Holy spells.
*As far as the damage goes, my monks have always seemed to kick that much ass, but I could be wrong; or it might have been Ramza that did that much. Still, the point remains that the monks can outdo the Knights with their Excaliburs about 2 to 1.
*And don't forget about the almighty ranged attack of Earth Slash. It may cause nearly as much damage as an attack would, but it does deal a significant amount of damage. Monks also have a few supportive abilities, mainly Chakra, that come in handy at times, compared to the knight's lousy break weapon skills.
I'd also like to think that Lv. 98 female thiefs with Setiemsons could potentially take care of the job, so long as they can get to the Knights in the first round and steal those bad-ass-cheap Excaliburs. Give 'em all a Black Costume, Thief Hat, Move +3, Math Skill, Dragon Spirit, and Magic Attack UP, and they just might take care of the cheap Knights. They've got just a bit more Speed than the knights now, a move of 7 if I'm correct, and the ability to hit every last one of those pricks with Level 3 Flare. If nothing else, they can always charm the knights. See what you can do with both of these strategies, Jay.
I like the thief idea.
"I mean, this is the MIDDLE AGES."
This is a fictious world. It is not in the Middle Ages. It is in a time period unique to the game. If it were in the Middle ages, there would be no magic and combat would not be turn-based.
Before I continue, let me ask that you READ THE REST OF THIS THREAD if you have not already done so. Many of these issues have already been dicussed. For example, I have previously and EXPLICITLY explained how I meant the term "Knights" in this thread. In addition we have already discussed Monks.
So moving SWIFTLY on ...
Yes, I KNOW Monks are powerful. I KNOW they can easily do 1998 damage on one turn. HOWEVER, they do not have Haste and would not get their turn first. FURTHERMORE, the attack has no range, so you would need to be in proximity of the Knight in order to attack it. ADDITIONALLY, 1998 damage is pure OVERKILL. A lot of damage does not necessarily equal the best unit. A knight can deal damage which, while admittedly less than 1998, is still lethal, and that is all that matters. Dead is dead. A Chaos Blade / Excalibur attack is something to be reckoned with.
Next, I only say to calculate for level 99 because most people are on level 99. I can calculate by any number of different factors and attributes. I thought that much was obvious ...
While I am thinking about it, let me point out the tragic flaw in every one of your arguments, which is all anyone has ever been trying to do is to design a team which can beat mine. To be the best team, you must be the best in general. Even if a team you design could beat mine, it would probably not be better than mine on average.
Kuja, that team would still lose as a result of HP defecit. Let's assume you manage to steal an excalibur from each and every one of my Knights. Their turns are now over and now it is my turn. They are all adjacent to my Knights, for the proximity on a Steal ability is one. So, all I do is attack with my remaining Chaos Blade, killing each and every one of your Thieves. If you charmed them, it would not matter; all I would have to do is Calculate a spell which will hurt your units by a great deal but only mildly to mine because I have high HP.
As for you, Summon Illusion, I do not take responsibility for your misunderstanding. I have explicitly defined "Knight" earlier in the thread and readig that is your responsibility. Not mine.
Squires would not be considered Knights because they do not have Knight-type abilities.
itd be fun to steal the excaliburs and chaos blades and CHUCK EM AT HIS CHARACTERS HEADS! BAH HQ HAHAHAHHAQHQHQHHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHKAKJHKAHJAHHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!!!!
Alas ... if that only made sense ...
oh, i assure you, it did. steal/throw is a fun yet not very effective combo. theres some joy in stealing someones weapon and then killing them with it ::sighs happily::. it would just be fun with your guys because they have such good weapons. get what im saying?Quote:
Originally posted by Jay Ayanami
Alas ... if that only made sense ...
You're one of those people that try to sound intellingent but really isn't, aren't you.
The majority's definition is different from yours, which would mean that the general thought for knight would intdeed, be the generic knight class. Of course you may just be an eccentric one, however the discussion earlier just simply faded out, meaning that most people are going by their own definitions anyways... (side look)
Ah, but you see, it's pretty damn close to the design of that of the middle ages, corrupt churches to knights, general wars and the island looking like europe, gothic shaping, peasant rebellions, lords, distant lands referring to japan...how is this NOT middle-ages designed.
The ancients would be representational to rome&greece, and of course they did believe in magic, which doesn't neccessarily make it true but hey, that's because they need magic to make it an FF (duh).
You know, it's people like you that don't get anywhere.
Like something he would say, there's no point in talking in this sort of case. You can write some long-dwindling explanation which sort of really isn't an explanation anyways, but I'm just gonna ignore this thread like he did. Don't expect me to read the reply which you spent so much time wasting.
me? or jay ayanami(pssh)?Quote:
Originally posted by Summon Illusion
You're one of those people that try to sound intellingent but really isn't, aren't you.....
MLenyo:
"oh, i assure you, it did. steal/throw is a fun yet not very effective combo. theres some joy in stealing someones weapon and then killing them with it ::sighs happily::. it would just be fun with your guys because they have such good weapons. get what im saying?"
This course of logic is first flawed because it relies on a successful theft, an action that typically has low chances of working. Secondly, one hit with a Chaos Blade by a Thief will in all liklihood not kill one of my units. My units have high HP due to the Maximillian and Grand Helmet. You'd have to have a unit with relatively high attck power. Moreover, you'd have to have a second turn to throw the item and in all liklihood, I'd have killed you By then.
Summon Illusion:
"You're one of those people that try to sound intellingent but really isn't, aren't you."
Okay, you spelled intelligent wrong and mispunctuated, just so you know. Only trying to live up to your expectations. Anyhow, you know nothing about me. Think of me however you want to; it would be an impossible feat for me to convince you otherwise. There is no point in stooping to petty insults as you have done so I shall not.
"The majority's definition is different from yours, which would mean that the general thought for knight would intdeed, be the generic knight class."
I stress this point: the majority's opinion is a moot matter. I clearly defined what "Knight" meant earlier in the thread. It was your responsibility to read the thread before you post. I could wager that half of the people who see this thread simply read the subject and then post, and without heed to what has already been established. I have chosen to approach this debate in an Aristotelian way (i.e. I define a word before I employ it; this is the meaning that is used when I speak with the word; regardless of the audience's opinion, it is the meaning intended.)
As for what you have said about this taking place in the Middle Ages (and I will say here and now that you are wrong) I will say the following:
"I feel that somewhat your comparings to the referall knight to all classes that look like knights is unfair. I mean, this is the MIDDLE AGES. DUH, most of the special classes would have the knight concept in it. What else do you expect? - -;;"
That line of logic is flawed. You will notice that the abilities of the special Knight classes are largely based around the generic Knight class. Meliadoul breaks people, just as a normal Knight would. Orlandu also possesses these abilities. You will notice that I did not include Hell or Heaven Knight in the types of Knights available! This is because their abilities are not of the Knight type.
And about the setting of the book - I will not deny that there are compelling similarities between FFT and the Middle Ages. However, this does not make them at all synonomous. It simply makes them, at best, analogous.
And there are compelling reasons that it does not take place in the Middle Ages. Shiva is Hindu, for example. Furthermore, they have technology that never existed in the Middle Ages including guns and robots. This world is ficticious and therefore you cannot apply the premises of the real Middle Ages to it.
"You know, it's people like you that don't get anywhere."
Yet another pointless insult. In my defense, I will say that I am the one driving this debate onward. You dwell on the conflict over the Knights by not accepting that "Knight" had already been defined as something other than what you are happy with. Accept this definition not in general, but in the context of this debate. You and I both know what is meant by it so let's go with it, regardless of whether we believe it is correct or not.
Secondly, I don't see how you could possibly make this inference since you know little to nothing about me. You simply know a bit about how I write, that I disagree with you, and that I like FFT. You should stop and consider your words before you allow them to spew from your mouth in a passionate fit. To lay this matter to rest, I will say that I do, in fact, "get anywhere" in life. You'll have to take my word on that.
In closing:
I DO, in fact, explain myself clearly. You choose to be obstinate. Call this what you like, but it will only be a hollow justification to yourself. I have posted, and it is available to you should you wish to read it. I have left the option to make a response in YOUR hands.
Finally:
"Don't expect me to read the reply which you spent so much time wasting."
That didn't make any sense. Perhaps you meant to add "making" to the end. That might have made sense.
P. S.
Feel free to e-mail me if you desire proof that I am not a stupid individual. I will provide it. You have my word on that.
hey, chill jay, i never said "my thieves would steal your items and kill you because youre team is beatable!!!" i was having some fun, thats what this is all about anyways. and i said it would be fun to steal the weapons, not i WOULD steal the weapons. some people...
"hey, chill jay, i never said "my thieves would steal your items and kill you beacuse youre team is beatable!!!" i was having some fun, thats what this is all about anyways. and i said it would be fun to steal the weapons, not i WOULD steal the weapons. some people..."
I was only saying that it is a flawed approach to defeating my team. You seem to think that I was passionately debating with you. Not at all. I was simply showing the inherent flaw. There is no need for me to chill; I assure you I am quite calm now. Take offense if you like; I only felt your post deserved a response.
it wasnt an idea to beat your team, it was something fun to do.
Sorry to interrupt..but would you listen to yourselves? you sound like kids heh. "Nono! i would do this and youde die!". well..the point is..as i was looking at this thread i just noticed some things.
1) There is no way to prove how "elite" your team of knights are, because we cannot test.
2) This is one of the most unintelligable threads iv'e ever read. im surprised its not locked.
3) And lastly, there is no such thing as an elite team in FFT. Everything has a weakness.
That's not true. There IS a elite team in FFT with or without special characters. We're just going to find out what is the elite team.
BTW: Elite doesn't mean invincible. It just mean strong...(Checks the dictionary):eep:
I didn't come reply before as I was a nOOb and unable to make fully infromed statments about the game. Now I am a vet and ready to debate!
First to the guy who syas 5 knight would ebat the crap out fo 5 meds where did you get 20%? I used my mediator bridgette a lot thoguh the game and the average chance ws abotu 35%. She took most of her levels as a white mage but still its makes a large diffrence. Also ebar in mind one or more of the knight turing on his fellows oculd seriouslley upset there chance of winning. Going down to 4 men and having one of there fighter go agisnt them is pretty tough.
But I admit it would be hard to determine the winner. Maybe when I get a gs3000 i will test this. Anyone know where I can get one is England?
Anyway on to the topic. Knights are pretty good having good lv growth,being able to equip many kinds of armor and having the fantastic equip armour abilty. But there ar emany jobs better than knight
Monk: in pure melee a monk will beat a knight becuse of there fantastic strengh (in most cases). However there abiltes put them out of the knights league. Hp restore means killing a monk is very hard for a knight and more than cancels out a monks armor limit, earth slash can strike multiple knights far away (with 100% accuracy). Oh and revive is incrediable and free! Also don't forget charka! The knight has only 3 things over a monk:
1) the abilty to wear armor (hp restore mor ethan makes up for this
2) Equip armor (agian hp restore more than makes for this)
3) better stat growth. Even with this a lv 99 monk raised a monk form lv 1 will obliterate a knight raised from lv 1
Lancer: Able to equip all the armor a Knight can. Also Dragon spirit is a great abilty. Spears can do a heck of a lot of damage and can atatck from 2 squares away/ Jump getrs thm out of the way of aknights atatck and aguments there damage even more. tehy do everything a knight does (minus the useless breaks) except better
Priest: There are many combat classes and a good few better than the knight but other than the chemist how many healing classes? 1 if you include the monk. White mages are far mor e likely to turnt he tide of war than a knight. Cure is great and raise rocks. Protect can be great as well.
Chemist only 3 reason here:
1) phoeniex down)
2) guns
3) Auto potion! yay!
Mediator turning the enmy gisnt itself, getting tons of free and cool equipment and never having to worry about the soldier office all add up to a brilliant class. Plus its got guns and can shoot brave up to 97. YAY!
Ninja Agian only a few reasons:
1) its has the best stat growths int he game
2) the speed is VERY useful
3) throwing stuff can be good
4) 2 swords is fantastic
Summoner
Hp is sucky but offensivley NO ONE (except holy swordsmen *cough* munchkins) equal these guys.
Tere slwo and fragile but summons do immense damage and hit many enmies. Plus Golem and fairey ar evry useful indee
I still ddint ge tthe samuri (meh to hard) but I think I made my point
Last time i checked...the definition was something like..
Elite: A group of people regarded as superior in someway and therefore favored; Peerless
"Sorry to interrupt..but would you listen to yourselves? you sound like kids heh. "Nono! i would do this and youde die!". well..the point is..as i was looking at this thread i just noticed some things."
By your logic, the act of sheer debate would sound childlike. I think we have conducted ourselves for the most part in a professional manner. At least, I feel as though I have. At any rate, to your post ...
"1) There is no way to prove how "elite" your team of knights are, because we cannot test."
Just because you cannot test something does not mean it is not true. We cannot test evolution (because by definition, definition is change over time - long periods of time; scientists do not debate the fact that evolution is untestable), for example, but we are 99.99% sure it is true. In fact, if you were to say it was not, you would be shunned by the logical (scientific) community.
"2) This is one of the most unintelligable threads iv'e ever read. im surprised its not locked."
Your point being ... ? I can understand it. I think I and many other people have been more than lucid in our posting. You'd have to be pretty dense not to understand it.
"3) And lastly, there is no such thing as an elite team in FFT. Everything has a weakness."
Lastly, I agree with Edgar. There IS such a thing as an elite team in FFT. Not everything has a weakness. It is just a belief people have come to accept as a truth. We like to think that everything has a weakness.
Yuffie -
I am afraid that I cannot offer a counter argument against your post simply because I have made several in the past which address nearly identical issues. As I said before, Knights are not good for their action abilities. They are good for their innate abilities to use Knight Swords, etc. And they could beat any of the units your proposed ...
Please read earlier posts for clarification.
Sigh. Right. Evolution is accepted widely. The point is, your knights aren't. Evolution also has research on it, whereas you just tested against a bunch of computers. Hell, i can make a group of all squires and whop computers too. And there is no use debating since we cannot test. This isn't even like opinionated with good evidence. it's simply you boasting and refusing to admit that you can be beaten. But since we cannot test and you deny, WTF is the point in arguing? And yes, this thread is very lucid in its meaning: Pointless. Everything has a weakness. Whatever is done can be undone and nothing remains constant except change itself.
"Sigh. Right. Evolution is accepted widely. The point is, your knights aren't. Evolution also has research on it, whereas you just tested against a bunch of computers."
No, you are completely missing the point. I cited evolution as an example of something most people agree is correct yet is not testable. This was meant to show that while you cannot test whether or not my Knight team was the best, you could still draw a conclusion. You misunderstood (or perhaps misconstrued) my analogy.
"Hell, i can make a group of all squires and whop computers too. And there is no use debating since we cannot test. This isn't even like opinionated with good evidence."
I have presented evidence and argued logical scenarios. That is the best we can do.
"it's simply you boasting and refusing to admit that you can be beaten."
Not at all. If I thought it could be beaten, I would admit it. But that is not even the matter at hand. I am seeking to prove that Knights are the best job class. Even if they could be beated, it could still be that they are the best overall, and I would still be right.
"But since we cannot test and you deny, WTF is the point in arguing?"
If there is no point to having this debate, then there is no point to a lot of things. Debate here and posting here is for recreational purposes. If you do not feel that this is worth time, then stop posting as Summon Illusion did. You are absolutely free to that choice. But don't come in here and hate just because you can.
"And yes, this thread is very lucid in its meaning: Pointless. Everything has a weakness. Whatever is done can be undone and nothing remains constant except change itself."
"Pointless" is not a point to be proven. It is a thing. Everything does not have a weakness. If you buy into the Big Bang Theory then you might just believe in a deity; if that is so, then you have something that is without a weakness. Even if that is not true (I'd REALLY rather not get into a theological debate!) to limit yourself to think that everything has a weakness, then you have closed you mind to a whole field of possibilities.
And you are close minded to think that some things don't have a weakness. God, your right im simply not going to post in here because your being anal and your arguments are completely bogus. Your oh so right mr big and bad, nothing messes with your awesome knights. Now shut up. Oh, and i do know a strategy to beat your knights: snap your CD in half and make you eat it :mad:
Please, let's not stoop to childish taunts and insults. I've had enough of that.
"And you are close minded to think that some things don't have a weakness."
I never said that. I simply said that not everything has to has a weakness. Do not misconstrue what I say.
"God, your right im simply not going to post in here because your being anal and your arguments are completely bogus. Your oh so right mr big and bad, nothing messes with your awesome knights."
I'll be anal, if that is the expectation you have constructed for me. You should first learn to form a contraction correctly; it is "you're", not "your". "Bogus" is a simple subjective comment. I have substanitaed my arguments, which is more than I can say for you and have also refrained from making personal insults. You may insult me if you like but like I said before, it has no place here.
"Now shut up. Oh, and i do know a strategy to beat your knights: snap your CD in half and make you eat it"
Again, say what you like. Here, you only have free speech as long as a moderator grants you that privelege. And that is not beating anything. That is just breaking something. But resort to voilence if you like. It is not in the least humorous unless I consider your own actions that of a fool.
If you people can't refrain from insulting one another and resorting to common idiocy, I'm not afraid to close this thread and restrict your access to this forum. I've spoken to you about this thread before. My patience wears thin. Talk tactics and talk classes, but do NOT insult the intelligence/importance/logic of anyone.
Hmm..since you INSIST on correcting my grammar..
"I'll be anal, if that is the expectation you have constructed for me(This statement makes no sense. well..not that it doesnt make sense, it just sounds funny. it should be "If that is what you expect of me"). You should first learn to form a contraction correctly; it is "you're", not "your". "Bogus" is a simple subjective comment(im pretty sure bogus is slang for wrong or incorrect). I have substanitaed(spelling error) my arguments, which is more than I can say for you and have also refrained from making personal insults(incorrect sentence structure, "I have substantiated and have also refrained from making personal insults" should be together, and THEN refer to me after you have finished the complete thought about yourself). You may insult me if you like but like I said before, it has no place here."
I never said that. I simply said that not everything has to has(spelling error, should be have) a weakness. Do not misconstrue what I say.
I type "your" because im lazy. Its not like you go around everyone that uses "2" instead of "to" to stop doing it. And i wasn't going to pick on your spelling mistakes but you insist on picking mine out.
Edit: Sorry Britt, i didn't see your post til after i posted. Im not really insulting him, just replying kind of.
Edit 2: Interestingly enough..i have a question actually..What would prevent my team from NOT being level 99, but level 98? And what would prevent me from using Fully grown Ninjas with the Calculator skill to cast Level three Death? or even use calculator skills on myself? Wouldnt that prevent you from healing yourself and dealing damage at the same time? Not to mention if im faster and i use level three death with all of my chars, i am bound to kill them all. And even if you spend your 1 or 2 guys left reviving your own, couldnt i just keep casting level three death til all your guys dropped?
Yeah I admit you said some of the sutff before. But not all. And I'd LOVE to see your knights beat a well done monk. Hp restore and earth slash should not be underestimated. Oh and you also didn't mention priest and summoner
Those knights could be beaten...... lancers, well trained monks. preistes, summoners..........Jump,earth slash,healing,zodiac, and if orlandu was on the party...
I checked on this thread again seeing the name "Britt" being the recent replier but...who are you talking to? Or in general?
Well, it would result this way, right from the beginning it was asking for it...
Quote:
Originally posted by Britt
If you people can't refrain from insulting one another and resorting to common idiocy, I'm not afraid to close this thread and restrict your access to this forum. I've spoken to you about this thread before. My patience wears thin. Talk tactics and talk classes, but do NOT insult the intelligence/importance/logic of anyone.
I don't see the point in being technical, perhaps robots can do stuff like that but humans, have the potential to do something different. That's like the type of people that become calculators when they grow up.
The whole point of communication is the mesage. If everyone understands that your is referring as in you're, it works. More than enough people use that form, therefore the regular audience is used to it. How can one state that slang is incorrect? I find it rather...pointless.
Quote:
Originally posted by Ferenan
Hmm..since you INSIST on correcting my grammar..
"I'll be anal, if that is the expectation you have constructed for me(This statement makes no sense. well..not that it doesnt make sense, it just sounds funny. it should be "If that is what you expect of me"). You should first learn to form a contraction correctly; it is "you're", not "your". "Bogus" is a simple subjective comment(im pretty sure bogus is slang for wrong or incorrect). I have substanitaed(spelling error) my arguments, which is more than I can say for you and have also refrained from making personal insults(incorrect sentence structure, "I have substantiated and have also refrained from making personal insults" should be together, and THEN refer to me after you have finished the complete thought about yourself). You may insult me if you like but like I said before, it has no place here."
I never said that. I simply said that not everything has to has(spelling error, should be have) a weakness. Do not misconstrue what I say.
I type "your" because im lazy. Its not like you go around everyone that uses "2" instead of "to" to stop doing it. And i wasn't going to pick on your spelling mistakes but you insist on picking mine out.
Edit: Sorry Britt, i didn't see your post til after i posted. Im not really insulting him, just replying kind of.
Edit 2: Interestingly enough..i have a question actually..What would prevent my team from NOT being level 99, but level 98? And what would prevent me from using Fully grown Ninjas with the Calculator skill to cast Level three Death? or even use calculator skills on myself? Wouldnt that prevent you from healing yourself and dealing damage at the same time? Not to mention if im faster and i use level three death with all of my chars, i am bound to kill them all. And even if you spend your 1 or 2 guys left reviving your own, couldnt i just keep casting level three death til all your guys dropped?
I don't understand why people take stuff other people say so seriously. I love tactics but come on guys, who gives a rip? Ninja is by far the best class without any help at all from any other group. TG Cid's squire is the best if you use help from other classes IMHO. cya guys: tongue:
The lack of any long range attacks is what makes knights a weak class. They have high PA and they can break equipment and lower stats, but they need to be right next to an enemy to do anything. Classes like monks, lancers, ninjas, and samurai are able to deal long range damage. Some of these classes are so adept at long range attacks that they would be able to defeat a party of knights without any casualties. I am of course assuming no secondary skills and R/S/M from other classes for the purpose of discussion.
werd;)
Just so you know, I am the one who contacted the mod, so there is no reason for you to feel supported. In fact, I have included a chat transcript for all of your entertainment! I am sure you will find it funny since I found it hilarious. And since it is pretty much a slander against me, you should think it downright "put me in stitches" material. Of course I found it funny for many different reasons (Oh, and if you think that I may have altered it in any way, just IM me or e-mail me; I think you will find that my contact information has remained clearly posted. If not, AYANAMIJ is my AIM screen name and you can e-mail me at that hotmail extention!). Nevertheless ...
ONWARD!
I readily admit that I make typographical errors. I never denied that I was a mere human. I however rarely make spelling errors because if I am using a word, it is a word I am comfortable with using and am familiar with. If I need to use a word I am unfamiliar with, I look it up in the dictionary. At any rate, yes, I know I make typographical errors. Although I think you will find me a bit less touchy than yourself about being corrected for it. Oh, and on a side note, I do like the way I had originally phrased that sentence because I wanted to indicate that there was a construction of my persona which had already built.
Moving on ...
The Monk's Earth Slash would be renedered much less powerful since, unlike the computer, I have the sense not to group my people all in one line.
Summon Illusion, I don't know why you are here. Didn't you say that you were leaving this thread? You say you returned since Britt was here and then you continue to post in opposition to me later? How odd! I'll simply say that typing correctly here makes for good practice for typing correctly when it is necessary. Feel free to disagree, but I feel that there is no reason not to use correct grammar for the benefits if being right outweigh the benefits of being lazy.
Chrono - I agree. I don't see why people are taking things so personally. I do not mean to make personal comments and am often careful to phrase things that might be seen as pejorative in Modus Ponens format. However, people are so sensitive that they automatically assume it was an insult.
Mog - I know that they do not have any long range attacks (actually, they do, since I am including Orlandu); you will notice that I am using them in conjunction with the Calculator skill set which is not limited by radius.
P. S. I am fully aware that you need not be on level 99 to be good. However, I can calculate via any number of other factors. One way or another, I can attack.
---
el loco cebras: you cant ignore me you bastard
Ayanami J: Excuse me, who are you? Did you expect me to reply to someone who keeps calling me a bastard?
el loco cebras: i thought you might
el loco cebras: neeya
Ayanami J: Well, you would at least seem to owe me an explanation of why you think I am a bastard, though you have ever right to call me whatever you like.
Ayanami J: *every
el loco cebras: are you sure you want to knwo who i am
Ayanami J: It does not really matter, does it?
el loco cebras: yes it does
Ayanami J: I simply asked for a reason why you think I am a bastard.
Ayanami J: Okay, if that is how you feel.
el loco cebras: you want to know why i think you are a bastard?
Ayanami J: I don't see how I could not wonder.
el loco cebras: well you are black for starters
el loco cebras: and you oppose cactus
Ayanami J: I am not back, but go on.
Ayanami J: *black
el loco cebras: and knights are a suck ass job class
Ayanami J: No, they are quite good.
el loco cebras: that might narrow it down
el loco cebras: no they arent
Ayanami J: Oh, I figured you were from EOFF.
el loco cebras: lancers are better
Ayanami J: Lancers are good, yes.
el loco cebras: better than knights
el loco cebras: knights have to range
Ayanami J: You are free to that opinion.
Ayanami J: Yes, I know.
el loco cebras: appearantly not since you attack everyone
Ayanami J: I did not attack anyone. I am simply arguing a point, which I am free to do.
el loco cebras: no you didnt
el loco cebras: you attacked that person for misspelling a word
el loco cebras: then you started attacking everyoen else
Ayanami J: It was not an attack. I think the comment was preceded by my comment which is that I was only living up to that person's expectations.
Ayanami J: I believe that is what I said, at least.
el loco cebras: well if that was what you said then i guess hitler was just making a few comments too huh?
el loco cebras: you nazi
Ayanami J: If someone has already made up their mind about me, then I see no reason I should not live up to that expecation. All in all, that person has made up their mind about me, so I may as well not waste my time with niceties.
el loco cebras: i think you are a homo
el loco cebras: so you should go have sex with guys
Ayanami J: You seem to be more of a nazi than me, due to your apparent hatred of black people.
el loco cebras: and live to my expectations
Ayanami J: Petty insults, say what you like. You know nothing about me.
el loco cebras: i never said that
el loco cebras: you did
el loco cebras: nazi
Ayanami J: "el loco cebras: well you are black for starters"
el loco cebras: i know enough to tell you that you are a conceited bastard
el loco cebras: i said back
Ayanami J: Again, call me what you like. You really do not know anything about me.
el loco cebras: back from buttsex
el loco cebras: i know everything
el loco cebras: me and cactus
Ayanami J: That is not what you said.
el loco cebras: and robert fulmer
el loco cebras: i will learn you
el loco cebras: neeya
Ayanami J: What do you hope to accomplish by insulting me. This is just the internet. It is of no consequence.
el loco cebras: is that a challenge
Ayanami J: There is no need for me, or you, to get bent out of shape over a trivial debate at EOFF.
el loco cebras: it has nothing to do with the debate
el loco cebras: you were being an asshole to everyone
el loco cebras: for no reason
Ayanami J: Not at all, I am simply saying that perhaps that we have a disagreement over FFT, but it is no reason to hate eachother.
el loco cebras: becasue of their opinions
Ayanami J: Not at all.
el loco cebras: yes
Ayanami J: I have been civil, which is more than I can say for you at the moment.
el loco cebras: i am civil
el loco cebras: you are a bastard
Ayanami J: Well, did you not call me a homo, a nazi, and a bastard?
Ayanami J: That seems a bit uncivil to me.
el loco cebras: neeya
Ayanami J: You have already built a construct of evil for my character. I cannot convince you otherwise. I don't see what this is going to accomplish.
Ayanami J: I am sure that if you knew me in real life, you would find me a most pleasant and amicable person.
el loco cebras: stop talking all big
Ayanami J: "All big" - What do you mean by that?
el loco cebras: you attacked everyone for no reason
el loco cebras: you hypocrit
Ayanami J: I did not attack everyone for no reason.
el loco cebras: you arnet innocent in this
Ayanami J: In your humble opinion.
Ayanami J: It seems to me that everyone else is as much guilty of attacking me as I am of "attacking" them.
el loco cebras: why did you call people stupid who start sentences with "i think"
el loco cebras: you coon
Ayanami J: I simply stated a fact. In good rhetoric, you do not use a) the pronoun "I" b) the phrase "I think".
el loco cebras: no you didnt you lying bastard
Ayanami J: If you want to write persuasive prose, your thesis begins with a statement that you propose is true. Then you support it with evidence.
el loco cebras: you flat out attacked him
el loco cebras: you spearchucker
Ayanami J: No, I did not. Please read the post again. You will find that I was only speaking about proper writing in prose.
el loco cebras: you lie like an eagle
el loco cebras: and a spider
el loco cebras: neeya
Ayanami J: Eagles and spiders are animals and they do not lie.
el loco cebras: you called him a moron
el loco cebras: yes they do
Ayanami J: Please read my post.
el loco cebras: fine you tree spider
el loco cebras: Only morons with little knowldge of rhetoric begin a persuasive statement with "I think...". When you write an essay, especially a persuasive essay, you state your point of view as a fact. You don't say "It is my belief that Leviathan is the best because..."; you say "Leviathan is the best because...".
el loco cebras: how is calling someone a moron stating an opinion?
el loco cebras: you dont need to call him a moron
el loco cebras: you nazi
Ayanami J: "Only morons with little knowldge of rhetoric begin a persuasive statement with "I think..."."
Ayanami J: Read farther into that sentence.
Ayanami J: It was hypothetical. I did not say "and that is what you did".
el loco cebras: yes you did
el loco cebras: you racist
Ayanami J: I simply said that if someone were to take that stance, then they would be a moron.
Ayanami J: Racist? Hardly. I myself am an ethnic minority.
el loco cebras: there arent many bastards around these days huh?
el loco cebras: are the bastards supressed?
Ayanami J: I hardly think that "bastard" is an ethnic minority.
el loco cebras: ys it is
el loco cebras: you nazi
Ayanami J: Anyone of any race can be a "bastard".
el loco cebras: keep it up mexican
Ayanami J: I believe that since I am not of the "perfect aryan race" that I do not qualify to be a nazi.
Ayanami J: "el loco cebras: keep it up mexican" Now aren't you being racist?
el loco cebras: you must be chinese
Ayanami J: I am not Chinese.
el loco cebras: no i was stating an opinion
el loco cebras: you are something of the sort
Ayanami J: I think you are being a bit racist. It seems to me that you suggest any Asian must be Chinese or "something of the sort".
el loco cebras: i am speaking in terms of the third perosn character of the second degree proclimation
el loco cebras: neeya
Ayanami J: You don't know what you are talking about. "Proclimation" is not even a word.
el loco cebras: im done with you now
el loco cebras: yes it is
Ayanami J: "Proclamation, however, is".
el loco cebras: i made it up
Ayanami J: Oh, I see. Very well then.
el loco cebras: dont patronize me you bastard
Ayanami J: I am not patronizing you.
el loco cebras: yes you are
el loco cebras: i will learn you
Ayanami J: As you like it.
Ayanami J: Learn is not a verb.
el loco cebras: i am learning you a lesson
Ayanami J: If you warn me again, then I will block you.
el loco cebras: do it you bastard
el loco cebras: im everywhere
omg u guys .. get girlfriends: :mad2: (you) + :love: (your girlfriend) = :love::love: (more happiness than arguing on here IMHO (assuming your are both guys)).
Jay, what exactly do your "knights" have equipped, and, more importantly, which of the "knights" are you using for your team?
I don't think Knights are the best class by themselves. I think that they are very good if they have skills from other classes though. I have a knight that has jump level ten, and two swords. He's probably my best guy.
I think this could have all been settled if square would release fft for the computer, and have internet play.
Umm..Jay, the point is..you corrected my grammar and your being picky and snooty. your "Replies" may be witty and thought out, but your just coming off as a snobby prick to me. I don't like snobby pricks. i like communicating with people who don't give a damn about their spelling as long as its understandable. And if your in the right, so many people wouldn't be disagreeing with you. What you think doesn't matter, the majority of thought does. Anyways, you didn't respond to my ninja idea at having them at level 98 and fully grown as ninjas having them cast level 3 death. I would have more speed than you and it would be hard to avoid death every single time. My ninjas would also have a faith of 3 making it hard to just hurt them with holy. As for equiptment..well..it doesnt matter much. All the best storebought stuff will do. An item with haste would help too.
Well, with a Faith of 3, you might as well forget about ever winning that battle via calculated Death.
It would work better for the Ninja to have high Faith (94 at most), be equipped with a Ribbon or any other piece of equipment that cancels Death, and Setiemson equipped.
The Ninja will take the first five turns. You can calculate a Lv. 3 Death and, your high Faith combined with the Knight's good Faith, and you're very likely to kill them all in that first turn. If it doesn't work, however, you have four more Ninja to cast the spell. :)
There is no way the Knights could survive that.......unless they have low Faith for some reason...... O_o
Erhh right, thats what i meant. High faith :P But yeah, i would get first turn and since your based on using holy, its almost certain the ninjas would wipe them out.
"omg u guys .. get girlfriends: (you) + (your girlfriend) = (more happiness than arguing on here IMHO (assuming your are both guys))."
Well I already have one and I do not think that I need another. Even so, I fail to see how this pertains to the matter at hand.
"Jay, what exactly do your "knights" have equipped, and, more importantly, which of the "knights" are you using for your team?"
I have already stated this previously in the thread. You should have read it; it is not my responsibility to re-iterate. Let me make it clear that I am using the optimum Knight, so I am probably going to want Orlandu if we include special classes.
"I don't think Knights are the best class by themselves. I think that they are very good if they have skills from other classes though."
Which is basically what I am asserting.
"Umm..Jay, the point is..you corrected my grammar and your being picky and snooty. your "Replies" may be witty and thought out, but your just coming off as a snobby prick to me. I don't like snobby pricks."
Call me a prick if you like. Know at least that I have not lowered myself to sniveling at percieved insults. I admit my foibles and move on. You would do well to benefit from that lesson.
I never claimed that my arguments are well though out at all. I simply type them and let them go. Clearly, if I did organize them properly, then there would be far fewer typographical errors.
I only corrected your grammar because you made it clear initially what your attitude toward me was. I only lived up to that construct. I figure, in my mind, why not be an anal retentive "prick" if someone has already decided that I am and in all liklihood will not change their opinion?
"i like communicating with people who don't give a damn about their spelling as long as its understandable. And if your in the right, so many people wouldn't be disagreeing with you."
That it is what you like is no reason for me to conform to it. I am not here to impress you or anyone else. I am here because I find it entertaining and beneficial. On the second point, your logic is flawed and I think you will see how in the following sentece I post.
"What you think doesn't matter, the majority of thought does."
That is so totally wrong that it is ridiculous. In the early days of America, most every person believed that the place of the African American in society was as a slave. Even a great deal of black people themselves, having been brainwashed my whites, believed this was true. However, revolutionaries changed the way despite what the general consensus was. And what about Einstien? No one really thought the universe was relative until he developed many of the theories of relativity that we use today. Before Newton, we never had derrivation or integration. I think you see my point.
"Anyways, you didn't respond to my ninja idea at having them at level 98 and fully grown as ninjas having them cast level 3 death. I would have more speed than you and it would be hard to avoid death every single time."
Level 3 Death rarely works - ESPECIALLY when you have faith 3. In any case, I have Haste and can calculate by a different factor (probably CT). Ninjas have low HP and they would be easily wiped out with one wave of Calculated attacks. There are any number of spells to choose from though if necessary, I can resort to physical attacks. I need to simply stay out of your range or sacrifice one Knight to lure a Ninja or Ninjas into attack or Holy Explosion range.
"My ninjas would also have a faith of 3 making it hard to just hurt them with holy. As for equiptment..well..it doesnt matter much. All the best storebought stuff will do. An item with haste would help too."
If you had Haste, you would get your turn first in all liklihood. However, I doubt you would be able to attack me within range on the first turn. Typically the combatants are positioned at opposite sides of the fighting arena. See above for the rest of my strategy.
"There is no way the Knights could survive that.......unless they have low Faith for some reason...... O_o"
Ah yes, the infamous Mwork, who has been trying to bring me down from the very beginning. Good to see you. There is no reason to assume that it would kill all five Knights. Even if it did, I would only need to make a few alterations to my team in order to win. The key here is that everyone has been designing teams to specifically fight my team. Often they would fare well against my team but fail on many levels against other teams. Say, for instance, if I had an item that equipped against Death. In that case there would be little chance of you winning at all.
"Erhh right, thats what i meant. High faith :P But yeah, i would get first turn and since your based on using holy, its almost certain the ninjas would wipe them out."
Somehow, I find that hard to fathom as there is a big difference between 3 Faith and high Faith. It does not look typographical to me. I am not based on using Holy. I just use that attack because it works well in general. There are any number of attacks I can fall back on. Even so, I could always simply equip something that protects against Death!
'''''There is no reason to assume that it would kill all five Knights'''''
It's very likely, though. For your Math Skillin' Knights to be as effective with spells as you've said they are, they'd need a decently high Faith stat.....85 or so? And with the Ninja's Faith of 94, once calculated Death spell would have about an 80% chance of hitting. That's good on its own, but it's just about a guarantee it'll hit all the Knights if that 80% chance spell is calculated five times....
'''''Even if it did, I would only need to make a few alterations to my team in order to win.'''''
Yeah, I know that. But then, Ferenan would only have to adjust his strategy a tad (like, say, calculating Petrify, a more accurate spell, instead of Death) to beat that new party.
Then you could change the Knights some more to beat that party, then Ferenan could change his Ninja to beat the new Knights, and so on and so forth........I can't see where it would end....
'''''The key here is that everyone has been designing teams to specifically fight my team. Often they would fare well against my team but fail on many levels against other teams.'''''
Often, you say?
The party of Lancers, the Wizards, and the Ninja as well, would all fare very well against other teams, actually factually. They are all very good at handling varied groups of enemies.
Is there really an ultimate team? Both sides are changing their parties drastically to counter each other, so this is just not gonna go anywhere...I'd say they're all ultimate teams. everyone, throw in a towel please? - -;;
Quote:
Originally posted by Summon Illusion
Is there really an ultimate team? Both sides are changing their parties drastically to counter each other, so this is just not gonna go anywhere...I'd say they're all ultimate teams. everyone, throw in a towel please? - -;;
There we go! :)
That's what I've been trying to say for a loooong time; no party is invincible. You just tweak a setup a bit to beat an alleged ultimate party to beat it, then you change that party to win, then the other......
Every setup has another setup that can beat it...
Jay if you keep flaming people and trying to look cool *snorts* than this thread will be locked. Can you guys stop bickering like immature elementry students and get back to having an intelgent debate?
ANyway Mwok I see where your coming from but ultimate does NOT mean ubeatlbl just the best. Notice hwo he said ulimate not perfect. The ultimate team would be the strongest and most effecient not neserily the team thay couldn't be beat.
Alright. At least as far as attempting to defeat your knights, I believe I may have a slightly better solution to the matter.
*Lv. 98 Female Ninjas
*Equipped Items*
*Rubber Conscious
*Thief Hat
*Setiemson
*Abilities*
*Math Skill
*Blade Grasp
*Martial Arts
*Move +2
Jay, a MAJOR problem with your knights is the fact that they are a part of the lowest speed characters. They have have Haste, indeed, but any other class (Minus the lancer and samarai) with Haste is faster than your team. I've chosen the Ninja class to exploit that weakness in speed, regardless of their lack of HP that your knights can easily take advantage of without proper protection.
*In the first round, I'd simply cast L3 Doubt Faith until your entire team has innocent, making your Holy trick, as well as any other magic, not work when under the effects of the status; since I have 5 people going at it with the L3 Doubt Faith, depending on your evade, 5 attempts is more than enough to make your team innocent. My team also wouldn't move anywhere, starting them off with a CT bonus for not moving. Orlandu would probably be able to take out one of my chicks as long as he gets Holy Explosion in range. Your other knights would be just wandering around since they can only attack and use their break abilities.
*Second round comes. Supportive spells and initial attacking on my part. Orlandu will either come close to, or kill another one of my chicks; but depending on how close some of my people are to yours, you MAY kiss some of them good-bye. Especially if Orlandu is in range of hitting someone with Holy Explosion.
*Third round. My team will start ganging up on Orlandu. 6 attempted hits would more than likely be enough to have him be hit at least once, if not twice. Kiss ranged attacks good-bye. Your knights may hit one of my three people, depending on the success rate of Blade Grasp, killing yet another one of my people.
*Fourth Round. Calculated Raise 2 on my chicks to get at least two of them revived. If Innocent has worn off by this time, then I'll try to re-cast it. We'll say that it did wear off and I only managed to get three of the four to be innocent, with the guilty knight reviving Orlandu. We'll also say you killed one of the revived chicks.
*Fifth Round. I make sure all of your knights have Innocent. If possible, I'll make an attempt on Orlandu's life. We'll say I don't succeed in doing that. Orlandu then kills that person trying to kill him.
*Sixth round. I manage to revive two of my people, bringing me up to a total of four people. The other one who doesn't revive goes up to Orlandu and succeeds in killing him. We'll have one of your guys kill one of mine.
*Seventh round. I kill another one of your knights with all three of them ganging up on him. We'll say that you've killed one of them.
*Eighth Round. I have one person revive one person. The other one misses a knight. Then that knight will kill him.
*Ninth Round. I have one person revive another one again. Those then gang-bang on a knight, succeeding to kill him. You completely miss me this round.
*Tenth Round. If Innocent has worn off, recast. I get lucky and manage to get all three of them to be Innocent again. You kill another one of my people.
*Eleventh Round. Both of my people gang up on another one of your knights, succeeding in defeating him. You manage to defeat one of my two people.
*Twelveth Round. That person revives another. That other person revives yet another, but you kill the one that I last revived.
*Thirteenth Round. Both of my people gang up on the last knight, but miss. You kill one of my two people.
*Fourteenth Round. I kill your last knight.
Before you say anything about that, I know that a large portion of it is based on luck. But seeing how I have Blade Grasp and the pre-emptive attack on every round, that makes things go my way.
I also have an alternative team.
*Lv. 98 Monks
*Rubber Conscious
*Feather Mantle
*Math Skill
*Blade Grasp
*Magic Defend UP
*Move +3
No haste, but the Feather Mantle's evade as well as the Blade Grasp would make them bloody hard to hit without concentrate. The Magic Defend UP would help them with your Calc. attacks and my lack of HP.
Unfortunately, the only way to tell if any of these setups ever thought up on this thread would work is if we could actually play it out in the game.
And NEVER underestimate the powers of statuses.
Personally, I'm finding it impressive that this thread is showing very impressive parties that are quite likely to beat sucha team, especially when it's NPC versus generic. Quite impressive, if you ask me.
Quote:
ANyway Mwok I see where your coming from but ultimate does NOT mean ubeatlbl just the best. Notice hwo he said ulimate not perfect. The ultimate team would be the strongest and most effecient not neserily the team thay couldn't be beat.
If you're the best.....then you are the strongest, the most superior.....you've surpassed the rest.
Agree?
Now, if there's someone out there who can beat you, then you haven't surpassed the rest, you're not the most superior, you aren't the strongest. In other words, your not ultimate........¿no?
PSSSSSSSSSH. Knights blow.
Master calculators Could ruin ya. And when I mean master, I mean Fully 'quipped with all Time magic, black magic, white magic, and Ying yang magic. You could be petrified, Holied, Fire 3'd ,frogged, demi'd, EVERY Black magic , Time magic , White magic and Ying Yang spell, MINUS the casting cost, and CASTING time. And no, calc spells cant be reflected.
Yeah, I have master calcs, but the only spells they cant cast from Black,white, etc are Cure 4 and Meteor (for obvious reasons). The possibilities are endless, as calcs can judge by height, AT, exp and level, Odd and Prime numbers.
Hahahahaha would sure suck to be you if you went up against me ;).
btw, you could play 50/50 through out an entire battle using petrify, getting some, then missing them this attempt. But hell, its been ages since Ive put FFt into my PSX console, beating it in 1 sitting sure gets rid of its playability huh? :P.
(like, one 6 hour movie if you time it right).
...based on what you're saying I'd say you haven't even read this thread. I will disregard your message now.
No, I havent. But is there a problem with someone running in, spilling coffee all over your shirt, while the rest of you were already shooting each other with hoses filled with scorching nabob coffee?.
You're still totally missing the point.
Tdblitz, the thing is Jay's arguing that Knights are the best Job, if you use them in conjunction with other Jobs. He says Knights with Math Skill are the best..
Above that, a calculator class party would lose even if it was calclulator against knights, with just abiltiies from their classes (disregarding all magics, since it would sort of defeat the point of math skill if the magics weren't selectable). Even in that case, since an average calculator's speed is 3, the knights would all have 3 turns before any of the calculators would. No, 4. haste's on. Even if the calculators had setsimon (damnit, I can't spell that), then it would still be 3. The knights would reach them by them, and either kill them or break them.
OK, someone made a claim about Knights being the best job in FFT, and said he was "prepared" to defend that statement.Quote:
Originally posted by Summon Illusion
You're still totally missing the point.
Ive seen some flame war pass over, with Jay correcting grammer and such, then someone challenging his well done part with a group of 6 female ninjas, and the assumed battle result.
I know for a fact, Knights arent the best job in the game.
Sure, they can equip some tasteful armor, with plenty of attributes, But that wont compensate for their lack of speed, and range. And depending on the map, a Knight could either be at his advantage, or at his worst. TAke the slums battle in the first chapter, the battle just after the wiegraf scenario. 1 knight would have to make quite a climb up those stairs, where those 2 archers are. And a KNIGHT ALONE, would NOT have Move +3. So it would
take quite a few turns to get to those archers.
Tell me, would an ordinary knight be invincible to the random success rate of a calculator? or the calculators math skill?. Its either Jay is ignoring all these factors OR this ENTIRE THREAD is about him obsessing about his own party, having the knight skill PLUS other attributes.
which one is it?.
If its him gloating about his "special knights" with other attributes, then thats him saying " MY KNIGHTS are the best job in the game". And this entire thread is just one persons attempt to gloat about how good their party is.
Trust me, Nothing is better than having a party of 4 , all masters of every job given to them.
Oh, so if it isnt knights in my opinion, what is the best all around job to be in?. The one given to Orlandu, what was it, Master swordsman or something along those lines?.
AN ARMY of master swordsman could rape anything in the entire game. Think about it.
Ok, so wait, what if Orlandus job is "out of bounds" because of its cheap skill? , Im assuming thats what Jay would be at next. What about Dragoons with math skill, Move +3 at the abandoned fort, near the end of chapter 1?. Can Knights really get to the top of that roof?. I dont think so. But Dragoons can!, With one of their abilities, what was it. Jump all? or something? (SHOOT ME! ITS BEEN an entire year since I last touched the game after beating it in one sitting).
Knights cant possibly jump that high, and to my recollection, they only have +1 jump? or something no where near close to +3 jump.
And if timed right, Those Dragoons could do quite a bit of damage. But see, The thing is, Jay added, Math skill, which
contradicts his entire statement "Knights are the best job in the game". And now this sounds like a battle for title of "my party can whoop all parties".
Seriously, if yer gonna change the rules like that, then what makes Orlandu's class so sacred?. What if a whole bunch of Master swordsmen went up against your precious party?, How good would you do then?.
Oh wait, I forgot, lemme give them attributes that werent apart of their job originally, just like Jay. And Make the FALSE contradicting statement like: "MASTERSWORDSMEN ARE THE BEST IN THE ENTIRE GAME."
Trust me, Take any fast class, Ninja, Ramza's Squire, whatever, and add "math skill" with all the spells in their book, and you're pretty much out 50/50, BOTH parties.
Dude, he has calculator skills on as well. So he'd be able to hit the guys on the roof. Above that, there's Jump+1, +2, +3, AND IGNORE HEIGHT in case you didn't notice.
"Jay if you keep flaming people and trying to look cool *snorts* than this thread will be locked. Can you guys stop bickering like immature elementry students and get back to having an intelgent debate?
ANyway Mwok I see where your coming from but ultimate does NOT mean ubeatlbl just the best. Notice hwo he said ulimate not perfect. The ultimate team would be the strongest and most effecient not neserily the team thay couldn't be beat."
For Christ's sake, get off your high horse, Yuffie. You are flaming more than me and as I said before, I am the one who alerted mods to the thread. Just don't be righteous.
As for the arguments about how the team you proposed to play against me being good, you are wrong. That team would fare poorly against any team with low faith. You could have any combination of strong warriors with low faith that would crush them utterly.
And Blitz, you don't know what you are talking about. Clearly you have not read any of this thread at all. Don't criticize until you educate yourself on the subject you refer to. It is pointless and annoying to all parties.
Yeah but Jay, yer claim is kind of pointless then. "KNIGHTS ARE THE BEST JOB IN THE ENTIRE GAME"
When you really arent making that claim, rather "KNIGHTS WITH ADDED ATTRIBUTES FROM OTHER JOBS AND MATHSKILL ABIILITY MAKE THEM THE BESTS IN THE ENTIRE GAME".
So seriously, either Rename the thread, or stick to what you've claimed from the beginning, Because Knights alone arent the best job in the entire game.
'''''As for the arguments about how the team you proposed to play against me being good, you are wrong. That team would fare poorly against any team with low faith. You could have any combination of strong warriors with low faith that would crush them utterly'''''
I'm a little confusticated here.....so clear this up for me wouldya?
What team is it you're referring to here?
Couldn't both teams have low faith? Then the average would be the same so it wouldn't make much of a difference. Also, you wouldnt' be able to cast raise 2 or heal yourself with holy very well with the low faith, right?
And um...no comment - -;;
Im going to say it, and say it now, the Best JOB in the entire game, without a doubt is Holy Swordsman with all Swords skill.
Why do you ask? well, If yer like me, and have beat the game a few times, WITH and WITHOUT using orlandu, you'd know that Orlandu plays pretty much like a cheat.
I really think he ruined the game IMO, the second and third time around I beat it. Because well, he's just TOO GOOD. He has the Second best weapon in the game, Excalibur.
Which casts haste and other attributes on whoever holds it.
And all of his Swords skills , and abilities make him one strong sunuva bitch over all.
all Armor damaging sword techs are NEAR TO IMPOSSIBLE to block. Hell , why do you think he was General?. He could bring down an entire army. And heck, If Balbanes hadn't died so soon to his serial killing son Dycedarg, we've mightve seen him kick just as much ass as Orlandu, probably even more.
Orlandu in the least to say, is one cheap sunuva bitch. I mean I felt that what mightve been a horrible and extremely difficult challenge had been deteriorated by Orlandus Allswordskill ability.
CHEAAAAAAAAAAAAp!.
Yes, you heard me. So even though it isnt really considered a "legal" class, since you cant attain it, But if you pitted 5 Master Holyswordsmen against 5 ordinary Knights, Monks, Any class, You probably wouldnt win. Or if you get right down to it, and want to change your chars and add your math skill and what not, Lets make it fair for both sides and give the holy swordsmen the Mastered Math skill ability as well. Yer still screwed!.
So all in all, I think HOLYswordsmen all on its own, can rape any job class!!!!!
This is so retarded I'm not even gonna bother to respond an answer to it.
You need to understand my thread of logic, Blitz. Intrinsic to the Knight is the ability to use a second skill set. This is the skill of every unit. Thus, it is valid to say they are the best since it is an ability of theirs to use other classes. It is other intrinsic traits, combined with this, that makes them the best.
Mwork, I was referring to the team you proposed that acted on Calculated status anomalies.
And Blitz, as for your last comment, I will say that I really wish you would read the rest of this thread before you make more of an ass of yourself. You don't even have to read the whole thing. Really, you only need read the last page or so ...
Weren't you saying ealier about not lowering yourself as much to go to insult the other person? Doesn't your action...contradict that?
'''''Mwork, I was referring to the team you proposed that acted on Calculated status anomalies.'''''
Ah. Gotcha. ;)
Still, those Ninja can also attack, physically. The Math Skillin' was only to get to the Knights quickly.
They're pretty good physical fighters, as well. Plus, one or two could always stay behind to heal/strengthen/revive their allies. :mog:
Aside from that, no reaction or support abilities have been chosen for this party, so just slap on Blade Grasp and Concentrate, and they will do fairly well against low-faithed, physical-type opponents....
Samurai, Monks, Holy Swordsmen ... any number of units could defeat them ... and what if the other team had Blade Grasp as well?
And Summon Illusion, there was again no insult. He simply made an ass of himself by continuously making arguments already said after I had informed him that he had done so. Ironically enough, we had just finished discussing the matter with another poster. I would challenge you to argue that he was somehow not making an ass of himself. An objective statement. Take it how you will.
'''''Samurai, Monks, Holy Swordsmen ... any number of units could defeat them ... '''''
The same thing can be said about your Knights, you know.....
'''''and what if the other team had Blade Grasp as well?'''''
I.
What if they don't? A great number of setups don't involve Blade Grasp. Those that don't would likely lose against the Ninja party. Meaning, the Ninja would do well against a great number of parties......
II.
Those setups that do have Blade Grasp aren't as big a problem as you'd think. Firstly, Blade Grasp only blocks out the first physical attack, completely ignoring a second. And, with Concentrate as a support ability, any other evasion is nullified, guaranteeing one hit per Ninja per turn...
ANYWAY,
This is supposed to be "Ferenan's Ninja vs. Jay's Knights," not "Ferenan's Ninja vs. every other possible setup," so why are we arguing about this.......?
Isn't it somewhat useless in order to argue about something that is an opinion, though? Again, it changes depending on the view, so it would be worthless to do so.
Personally, I would say that the term 'ass' in general would only be used in an insulting case, you could say he's being annoying or he's specifically doing (insert reason why he's being an 'ass'), if you want an example of how to react civilized in such a situation which the other person is, in that person's opinion being irritable. After all, unless you explain why it doesn't really get anywhere, and is far less rude to the general audience, and doesn't really traitor your earlier statements in anyone's opinion, for that matter.
Quote:
Originally posted by Jay Ayanami
Samurai, Monks, Holy Swordsmen ... any number of units could defeat them ... and what if the other team had Blade Grasp as well?
And Summon Illusion, there was again no insult. He simply made an ass of himself by continuously making arguments already said after I had informed him that he had done so. Ironically enough, we had just finished discussing the matter with another poster. I would challenge you to argue that he was somehow not making an ass of himself. An objective statement. Take it how you will.
Straightfoward, I don't know and I shouldn't something like that take place in another thread?
Quote:
Originally posted by Mwork
ANYWAY,
This is supposed to be "Ferenan's Ninja vs. Jay's Knights," not "Ferenan's Ninja vs. every other possible setup," so why are we arguing about this.......?
Blade grasp? what about blade grasp? blade grasp will never pull off successfully, 100% of the time, neither will Counter, Nor Hamedo, Nor any ability that triggers when being hit or when you're at low Hp. They DO infact, FAIL.
Knights ARE infact good even WITH souped up abilities and fitted with another skill, But Ive done alot better without them (infact, Ive done worse using knights and math skill).
If I were pitted up against 5 on 5 , Knights with math skill ability? Id add equip Knight Sword, To 5 ninjas in my group
#1*Give them all excaliburs, 2 in each hand*, which will give them haste without even needing to cast. And then 1 casting of Lv3 Raise faith on whomever it hits. Then rest of the battle, casting Petrify , pretty much taking a gamble, at 50/50 as you cant guarantee when petrify will successfully cast. Yeah, I could be screwing myself over , or screwing the opposistion, we may never really know.......mwahhaha.
But hey, it just hit me. Lets go back to chapter 1, where all the fine luxuries of armor are non existant. Your Characters are still souped up in mastering all classes, but you dont have trout worth for weapons. Yeah, thats right, no excalibur or Choas blade in site. Hell , the summoner from the Magic city of Gariland just left for deep dungeon in search of the Zodiac stone.
The Chocobos in Random battles hit harder than you do, because knights would rely too heavily on the damage of their own weapon. You would do nothing more than 80 minimum, 365 on rare occasions.
Yeah, I thought to myself that my team of well armored warriors would do faboulous in Chapter 1, but when I got there, ALL THEY HAD WAS ARMOR WORTH SHIZ!.
So tell me, would your Knights, paired up with
Calc attacks Counter attacks Two swords and move +3 do as well in the last chapter as they would in the first?.
Just goes to show you, Your knights without your weapons and armor are useless. Id spend more time mastering all classes then obsessing about the Armor and accessories I have.
Seriously, if yer ever going to beat the game in less than 2 days, or 16 hours (WITHOUT A GAMESHARK*AHEM*) You cant rely on weapons as a crutch. All the weapons your Knights have are non-existant in Chapter 1, Chapter 2, and chapter 3, and their math skill alone wont save them
(trust me, I've done this before).
I CLAIM MYSELF KING AT BEATING FFT! IN LESS THAN 12 HOURS! (well, I never actually timed it, so sue me).
#1*(which is possible :P you CAN dupe *without codes* you know, OR you could spend yer time in deep dungeon gathering all these things :P)
It wasnt originally "Ferenan's Ninja vs. Jay's Knights,"Quote:
Originally posted by Summon Illusion
Straightfoward, I don't know and I shouldn't something like that take place in another thread?
just "Jay's Knights vs whomever".
However "Ferenan's Ninja vs. Jay's Knights" DOES fit under the category of "Jay's Knights vs whomever". See? It fits (ferenan's ninja goes into whomever). So your point's kinda pointless. Which is pretty pathetic for a point.
Hey, that wasnt my point, it was Mworks, and you suggested it
Quote:
Originally posted by Mwork
ANYWAY,
This is supposed to be "Ferenan's Ninja vs. Jay's Knights," not "Ferenan's Ninja vs. every other possible setup," so why are we arguing about this.......?
Quote:
Originally posted by Summon IllusionStraightfoward, I don't know and I shouldn't something like that take place in another thread?
My high faith ninjas would kill his knights, end of story. Knights aren't ultimate, end of thread. Im not saying my ninjas are invincible, no team is in FFT. Everything can be defeated. But we have proven that your knights are defeatable. and you cant keep modifying your team or its not the same team. Now..thats the end of the discussion. At least one of us has proven his knights defeatable, so what is left to debate? If your going to go off topic, start a new thread of "I think Holy Swordsman are the best" or something, k?
There is no such thing as Equip Knight Sword (to my knowledge) and the Knights are still ultimate because they are better than any other team imaginable.
Yeah, Equip Knight Sword does not exist.
No one has proven Jay's Knights are better than any other team imaginable, rather, it's been proven that they aren't the best team imaginable (by showing another party capable of beating the Knights).
Yes, and this is one of the very advantageous things about the knight class. They can equip all the legendary swords.
The drawback is that we can also raise up the point that they cannot wear cloths (ex. Secret cloths, power sleeve), as well as hats (THIEF HAT, flash hat, twist headband etc), and there's no 'equip cloths' or 'equip hat'. I'm suprised noone brought that up yet.
I think the ultimate team thing is really preference. For example, I would prefer the ninja team and I'd have so much more fun in the game with a CHEMIST ARCHER team (I'm serious, they're fun to use).
Oh, and TD, I'm talking about what you said, not what he said. You 2 said separate things if you can tell the difference.
Even if the could not beat every team, it does not mean they are not better. They need only to be better against more teams than any other team to be the best.
Despite that inability, Summon, they can still have Haste, which is good, and they have high HP.
I personally find the speed cloths or certain robes are much more important than the knight armor, but ah, that's preferences.
Personally, I'd much rather have a thief hat on than a grand helmet on, or even secret cloths rather than maximillian for that matter. I find that speed is much more important, rather than some helmet that protects you from darkness. Again, preference. I consider Speed more important than HP.
But in such a case, I would not know if the ninjas are better. You have to admit, by this point they're both about pretty much even. Even if there was a difference, as far as I see it's too small the the point which it makes a difference.
Setiemon also gives haste, and the haste is made up by their much higher speed (don't forget equipment, you can have up to +5 with just the equipment). Also, generally ninjas can THROW chaos blades and excaliburs, and since as you said you can get many without cheating on that deep dungeon level horror, it would make sense that they have multiples of them. This accompanied with move+2 or 3 would be very effective, especially with a ninja.
I would go with the ninjas, but again, that's just my preference. I find it suprising that a generic can match NPCs. Don't you find it quite amazing yourself? I do.
When have I flamed?
And I notice you failed to adress my arguments. yes oh course hoylswords is the best but thats a special job.
Anway assian's with olyswordsmen skill would own all teams. WHy ? the only way to stopthere death attack (which has 100% accrucey) is N kai armle or ribbon. Balster punch and Icewolf bite would take care of that!
I'm supposing your point is that if Orlandu's actually being considered as a knight, then an assasin should be considered as a ninja? Makes sense to me, and besides, since it is technically saying they are the best class, then a knight party with orlandu can still be easily outmeasured, if npc's are considered.
I personally prefer it if it was just knight (generic) vs ninja (generic) though.
I'm suprised that there's even a chance that these ninjas have against a cheat NPC character, really. Rather impressive.
I don't mean this to be offending, but Yuffie, he's the one that has the blaster punch and icewolf bite, not the assasins.
However, unless they have ribbons yes, it's pretty much unavoidable. However, they can equip 2 samurai swords (2 hands&samurai sword equippable), so I don't think that would neccessarily make them un-invincible or anything - -;;
Well then, it's very obvious we won't be able to determine who's the best by your definition, seeing as how there are hundreds of different possible setups for a party......Quote:
Even if the could not beat every team, it does not mean they are not better. They need only to be better against more teams than any other team to be the best.
Though, it does make sense that the better team will beat the other. And since the Ninja are VERY capable of killing the Knights, I would say they are the better of the two.
....Anyone else agree?
So, Jay's Knight have been proven fallible where Jay had said (I believe) they weren't. Correct me if I'm wrong, though...
That could be proven false by pretty much any party, but I'll have to favor the ninjas for this one. At least until, its shown otherwise.
er........what can be proven false by pretty much any party?
Well, in my opinion trying to prove it true or false is trying to build truth on something that is truely opinionated. Therefore, my thought would be that it's pretty much impossible. Perhaps a majority party might agree, but as far as I can see...neither side has proven the other side wrong, however neither side has been proven RIGHT either so....
'''''Well, in my opinion trying to prove it true or false is trying to build truth on something that is truely opinionated. Therefore, my thought would be that it's pretty much impossible.'''''
I'm.....a bit lost with that part....... O_o
'''''as far as I can see...neither side has proven the other side wrong, however neither side has been proven RIGHT either so....'''''
Alrighty then, let's see.
(And this is considering Jay keeps the same Knights he originally posted...)
The Ninja have their Faith at the maximum, 94. Their MA would be (an estimated amount of) 10 or so. Since Jay hasn't given a specific number for his Knights' Faith, we don't know for sure. But, considering the damage he says he does with Holy, I would say it's around 85.
Okay, so if the first Ninja calculates a Lv.3 Petrify, the calculation will target all of the Knights (they are all at Lv.99). I would choose Petrify, by the way, because it's a more accurate spell than Death.
The chance of the calculated spell to successfully hit is 95%, rounded down, since the Knights have practically no magic evasion.
With those numbers.......
P (X=0) = (5!/0!5!) * (.95^0) * (.5^5) = .003125
There's a 3% chance that the Ninja haven't yet won the battle.
But there's four other Ninja who can calculate the same spell on all of the Knights.
P (X=0) = (25!/0!25!) * (.95^0) * (.5^25) = .00000003
So, once every Ninja has calculated the spell, there will be a .000003% chance that there's at least one Knight left to fight.
With those VERY low chances of survival, I don't know how anyone could say the two teams are pretty much equal....
if anyone notes mistakes on the math, please let me know. I typed all this up in a big hurry. :)
So if I were to say you are a hypocrite and an asshole I would simply be making an objective statement? Or would I have to say that you are making an asshole of yourself? I would appreciate your expert opinion.Quote:
Originally posted by Jay Ayanami
Samurai, Monks, Holy Swordsmen ... any number of units could defeat them ... and what if the other team had Blade Grasp as well?
And Summon Illusion, there was again no insult. He simply made an ass of himself by continuously making arguments already said after I had informed him that he had done so. Ironically enough, we had just finished discussing the matter with another poster. I would challenge you to argue that he was somehow not making an ass of himself. An objective statement. Take it how you will.
"Well, in my opinion trying to prove it true or false is trying to build truth on something that is truely opinionated. Therefore, my thought would be that it's pretty much impossible."
Sorry, that must've been confusing. Basically, I'm saying that since in my view all of this is an opinion, it's really impossible to dig out a 'truth' in it.
And um...notice how this thread's died - -;;
Well, I guess that means...ninjas, for now - -;;
The flaw in all of your guys' arguments is that you have been specifically designing teams to beat my own, not teams which are all around good. My Knight team is the best for obvious reasons I have stated but you must also consider that they are good against most any squad regardless of specialization. The team you all have cited is simply good against people who have Faith. Common Samurai, Monks, or Lancers could take them down and with ease.
Your counter argument to that is that there are too many combinations to ever decide what is the best. However, if you are a smart person, you can probably take that number down by 99% because most of those combinations suck and are only there because they are, quite simply, a combination.
And about the Ninjas, like I said before, there are only a few changes one would need to make to defeat them. You have simply had the advantage of what I will call "pre-emptive strike".
And Ragnarok, I was, in fact, being objective. Read what I have said before. It is quite funny, you will see, because you exemplified the very behaviors that I was seeking to prevent before you came. I think that if you found yourself in my position, you would see the humor in that.
Oh, finally, you responded. However, as shown earlier, you edited your knights little by little in order to counter their strategies, so that's not specifically for one side either. Additionally, these ninjas aren't just good against you - they're very good in general. I tried it out myself recently (although at a much lower level), as well as the knights (again, much lower level).
I'm pretty sure it works just as wlel against samurais, monks and lancers. Don't forget, those classes don't specifically have low faith either. And it's not like the ninjas have a very high speed, throw (chaos blades), as well as 2 swords. Then there's the whole assasin thing..but that's beside the point.
Can you be a little more specific against the ninjas? You're not really being specific, so.
And again, they both work generally well. The knights would be beaten in such a case, and they'd both do just as well in random battles. I cannot see, at the current standpoint, why the ninjas wouldn't generally win. And besides, it's not a competition of whether the ninjas are ultimate, but rather whether the knights are ultimate. And this has just proven that they aren't, until proven otherwise. This whole thread is whether knights are ultimate, not whether if there are any other classes that are more ultimate (although one can argue assasin, and the ninjas so far are right up there if not past). Most of the people who were in the discussion said as well, that their point arguing otherwise is there is 'no ultimate team in FFT', so.
Anyways, I'd like to see what other people have to say about htis.
And for the comments, again, ass is an opinion why stupidity is not (although that as well, to some extent is opinionated). If I was one to declare it to be low to do such a thing, I believe most would have the integrety to follow it themselves. Of course, that's just from my standpoint here.
Yes, Summon, I finally posted. Pardon me if I cannot be online at all hours of the day as you seem to be. I am already on it enough as it stands. And for all of your all's benefit, I will tell you that I will be on Spring Break this week and have planned a vacation with my friends. So, you will not see me in the next five days for sure.
Back to the matter at hand:
I simply said that in order to defend myself, I would only need to make minor changes to my team. The team you suggested is very specialized and is really no good against people who excel in physical abilities (like I cited, Monks, Samurai, etc.). They need no Faith and can attack long range for massive damage. Plus Lancers and Samurai have an armor advantage. So, perhaps you can kill one or two of them by throwing Chaos Blades (two throws to kill one unit, probably), assuming I do not dodge. That puts you in range of a Samurai attack or at the very least a one move followed by a Samurai attack. Given your less than desirable HP defecit ...
In case I did not specify, any of these units could have 3 Faith since we have made it clear earlier in the thread that 3 Faith is a valid attribute. Thus, it does not matter if the unit type would normally have high or low Faith.
The Knight team does well against most any foe and the teams that excel against them are ones who have specifically designed to bring them down. As we can all see, these teams would do horribly against enemies who excel in Physical attacks (such as the ones I specified earlier: Lancer, Samurai ...) and have low Faith. And let's not forget Orlandu who has been established for the sake of consistency in this thread (and this thread alone for all you people who are still griping) as a Knight.
And Summon, Dictionary.com defines "ass" as "A vain, self-important, silly, or aggressively stupid person." (definition 2.2). I think Ragnarok fits the latter of that definition. I know how you'd love for this to be a totally subjective world but let's be logical here. Relative to other matters, this is more objective than "puppies are nice". This is objective as it could possibly for you even if you reject the concept of objectivity. Trust me.
Oh, that. This is spring break, and I've been doing a lot of recording&practicing. Of course, every hour or so I get bored so I check my mail. Then I go out somewhere. This results in me checking my mail anywhere from 2-7 times this week. Also, a lot of people tend to post at the same time I do, so I get a reply in my mail right after I posted (by the time I'm finished junking out, BAM there's a reply). Of course, that's only for this week, and otherwise usually I check about 1-2 times average.
I suppose I failed to address that you work most of the day. Well, I practice most of the time. Plus, most electronica stuff or recroding tools have to be found online, and none of my friends are musicians so it's an easy resource, or a substitute for at leat this time.
Oh yeah, I set up huge downloads and those screw up every couple hours or so and sometimes I check mail while fixing the problems that's occuring in the current setup.
I want to hear other people talk on this one, so I'm just gonna skip it (sorry).
Yes, but most of ass is things that would be considered opinion, and I wouldn't say Ragnarok is specifically intelligent. If it was simple truth that he was unintelligent, more people would agree to it.
Things are the hardest to apply to one's self.
Quote:
The team you suggested is very specialized and is really no good against people who excel in physical abilities (like I cited, Monks, Samurai, etc.). They need no Faith and can attack long range for massive damage. Plus Lancers and Samurai have an armor advantage. So, perhaps you can kill one or two of them by throwing Chaos Blades (two throws to kill one unit, probably), assuming I do not dodge. That puts you in range of a Samurai attack or at the very least a one move followed by a Samurai attack. Given your less than desirable HP defecit ...
In case I did not specify, any of these units could have 3 Faith since we have made it clear earlier in the thread that 3 Faith is a valid attribute. Thus, it does not matter if the unit type would normally have high or low Faith.
Oh my........just think about it a while....
....just look at the Ninja party. They REALLY do work well against the types of opponents you say.
....why do you keep refusing to accept that??
The Ninja's high Faith will ensure all healing and support spells will work exceptionally well. The Ninja have excellent Speed, so they'll act more often than the opposition. They could all just spend the first round calculating Protect, Shell, Regen, Reraise, Pray Faith and such on each other. Then they can attack the next round. They hit hard due to their inherent Two Swords. Against units with Blade Grasp, the Ninja's first strick will be blocked, but the second cannot be blocked. And, with Concentrate, that second is guaranteed to ignore evasion and will, therefore, connect. The Ninja will be well protected from their support spells, plus the added support of Blade Grasp, so they'll manage pretty well against the enemies' attacks. Then one or two Ninja could just calculate a healing spell or a reviving one at the start of the next round.
I don't see how a team this good would not be good against low-faithed physical warriors.....
But anyway, from my point of view at least, the point of this thread was to prove that Jay's Knights could be beat. This would mean, to me, that they are not ultimate.
Now, this has been done several times already, so unless something else comes up, I see no reason for me to continue posting about it.....
As if calculated spells are effective against people with 3 Haith. Anyhow, the Samurai can add Haste, Protect, Shell, and Regen. The Lancers can jump and the Monks can Revive and Earth Slash.
'nuff said.
1.) I never even hinted the Ninja should calculate their spells on the enemy. As I said "healing and support spells will work exceptionally well." Why in the world would one ever THINK about casting healing/support spells on the ENEMY??????
2.) C'mon Jay, think about it. You'll realize the Ninja really aren't bad at all against other setups. Well.....about as good as your Knights, since the Jobs/abilities you just described can also devaste your Knights quite easily.......
I never even hinted the Ninja should calculate their spells on the enemy. As I said "healing and support spells will work exceptionally well." Why in the world would one ever THINK about casting healing/support spells on the ENEMY??????
I assumed this was a hangover from the Level 3 Status Attack strategy. Use your head, why would I assert you would heal me.
C'mon Jay, think about it. You'll realize the Ninja really aren't bad at all against other setups. Well.....about as good as your Knights, since the Jobs/abilities you just described can also devaste your Knights quite easily.......
No, all you could suggest is the same opening move only with a different job set. But then again, some classes are slow, so it would not work. Even so, all I would have to do is change speed. They are average. Not bad, but they fail against many phyiscal teams with low Faith.
Well, it's really kinda pointless to argue with you about this......
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........I'm only typing up this post to say that you shouldn't expect anything more from me on this current topic..... -_-
If you manage to do that, then you'll be the first, but at least you'll have my respect.
I just don't see how you can argue that a team that relies on Calculations moreso than physical attacks would win against low Faith. Although Ninjas are good phyiscally, then cannot match up against long range attacers who have good defense mechanisms and can attack for lethal damage long range.
Neither one of us would ever be able to convince the other to change his opinion.......so I just thought I'd be better if we stop the discussion... :)
But, honestly, I kinda enjoyed the whole thing.
It was.......entertaining, to say the least..... :choc:
Not job classes are the best, trust me.
Squire: Good for experience gain
Archer: Good and fexible unlike throw and gun shooting
Knights: Can equip knight swords
Chemist: Heal without charging
Monk: Ultra high pa and can attack long range and can heal.
Lancer: Good for attacking enemies that are VERY FAR
Geomaner: Good for torturing
Oracles: Good for adding all kinds of stats
Calculator: Good for ranged magic casting
Mime: Good for combos
Thief: Good for getting rare items
Samuri: Good for healing and attacking surrounding enemies
Ninja: Good for the hit and run stretegy
Priest: Good for healing
Wizard: Good for offence
Time Mage: Good for moving faster than others
Mediator: Good for all sorts of talking
Summoner: Good for all long radiues attacks
Dancer & Bard: Good for thier Reaction and Movement abilities respectively:choc:
Has anyone created a paper-and-dice version of the FFT battle system that acts just like the game? If so, why don't we use it to test the teams' capabilities? Or perhaps even create our own, assuming we could get all the mathematical crap behind the scenes to be known? This game could very well be played on a board with little Lego people and a basic computer program that could keep track of all the AT's, attack damage, etc. I dunno, just food for thought to prove who's the best once and for all. And then, we can go back to our regularly scheduled lives and do something with them other than flaming people and arguing without supportive evidence. *shrugs*
I've seen plenty of supportive evidence, from BOTH sides of this argument.........don't see how you could've missed that.
For example, chemists are required since it's too risky for a charge meter to turn to zero (not very high faith for some time in the game). Mediator skills, are not for battle, but making people's faiths extremely high or low. So someone could say the mediators are just as important. Their purpose isn't direct battle. Thiefs are extremely useful as well, together with other classes.
...So pretty much, what class ISN'T good?
If only Square would make a sequal that had a Vs. mode
so that we could test these ideas. I have a pretty good couple of teams. :mad2: :mad2:
Such as?
They told there was one game of that. it's name was ehrgeiz, i think.
They told me that cloud, tifa, sephiroth, yuffie and vincent from FF7, and some others like yoyo yoko.It's a rpg too.
I really wish that there's a game of vs. made from FF1-10
In ergiez you can only use cloud, sephroth, tifa, yuffie, vincient, and Zack(clouds alter ego person thingy) to play in the fighting game. Its like an arcade fighting game like mortal combat or steet fighter. however you can use 2 of the other characters in the rpg mode but you can not vs each other it is a 1 player in rpg mode. the fighting mode is like any other fighting game.
just thought id clear this up cause i have this game.
Hey if you want a game that Has vs mode get Tactics Ogre. Its great i love that game just for that reason.
How expensive is ergiez, and where can you get it?
I got it burnt for $5 but ive seen it in zellers or the local vidio store for like $40-$60
but i recomend getting it burn or at least renting it before you buy it because it really is not that great of a game. The rpg mode is not real rpg its an action but the character lvls.
I've actually think like you in that. it isn't a great game. The fighting mode i think would be better.Quote:
Originally posted by Nakor TheBlue Rider
I got it burnt for $5 but ive seen it in zellers or the local vidio store for like $40-$60
but i recomend getting it burn or at least renting it before you buy it because it really is not that great of a game. The rpg mode is not real rpg its an action but the character lvls.
Maybe on the GameBoy Advance version of FFT coming out later this year.
I attached an old Knights versus Math Wizards tactics post which may be of interest to this thread.
Knight's weapon attack is strongest,with Excalibur,Ragnarok or something like that,but when I didn't put nothing on weapon's place,and he attacked with hand,his attack does 789 HP!
Knight is very useful,but best job would be Holy Swordsman.
IF you asks best regular job,that would be Time mage,cause he
has all kinds of magics:time changing (stop,haste...),attack (meteor),special damage (demi),and moving (teleport,float).
Unfortunately, Meteor is so horrendously slow that it forces you to target units instead of panel. The enemy you target with meteor will always get a turn before the spell resolves, and the computer isn't stupid. It will make the enemy you target with meteor go next to as many of your units as possible so that you end up hurting youself more with meteor than you hurt the enemy. Even with short charge, meteor is still slow enough that it won't resolve before the enemy gets a turn. In addition to that, it's MP efficiency is lower than most other spells. Those negatives aside, meteor works quite well when you don't move an enemy so it can't escape. It's also very visually impressive.
Meteor is especially useless in the beginning of the game when time mages won't even have the 70 MP required to cast it. Demi spells are also useless in the beginning because they have low hit% before you augment the faith points of the time mage. They will also do less damage than black magic spells while consuming much more MP. This severely limits the offensive capabilities of a time mage at the start of the game. Fortunately, the game allows you to make up for this by adding skills from other classes. Giving a time mage Black Magic is always a good idea because it allows you to inflict damage when you don't need any time spells.
Samurai is...THE BEST CLASS.
1) Blade Grasp.
2) Required to get Ninja who has...... TWO SWORDS (double-damage..whaha!)
3) Versatile.
Note: I like dancers alot, they can hit...well it depends
If they hit 10 HP: They willl hit 30 each round to all foes.
If they hit 15 HP: They will hit 45 HP off each round.
If they hit 20 hp: They will hit off 60 HP each round.
Dancers dance about 3 times each round! I've never improved a dancer enough to hit over 20, I don't know if that's possible.
Samurai isn't required to get Ninja. For that matter, it isn't required to get any other job classes. The prerequisites for Ninja are Archer level 3, Thief level 4, and Geomancer level 2.
Oops. For some reason I was thinking that cause when one of my chara was a samurai the ninja option opened up.
It was one of the earlier classes that leveled up on it's own..I knew that ...ohwell.
Samuris are in the category of the final 'Combination Class', so are ninjas. That why there no need to get a lvl 8 Samuri to get a ninja because they are in the same category.
One little interesting bit on opening jobs...
It is impossible to open Mime with out also opening Bard or Dancer.
:eep: Just sharin'.
Its also impossible to open it without over lvling.....unless you use one of those un-level tricks....
No, please don't post a comment on this thread. I just wanted to bring up this ancient history because it is very very interesting. That and I was thinking that it is the longest thread that i have ever seen. And there was the little fact that i haven't finished reading it yet and am too lazy to try to find it all the time.
Happy reading.
Once again I am emploring you, please don't *revive* Cough, cough:rolleyes2 this thread. :angel: May this thread rest in peace.
why doesnèt anyone ever mention Ragnorak or that sword u get just before u face the last boss? I found it very usefull.......
I don't know if anyone said this or not (sorry if I didn't read through all 12 pages. I only read through three), but on the knights versus wizards, couldn't they break the chantage? also,assuming that the opposing team was not level 99, couldn't a calculated slow attack potentially screw some of the knights up without effecting the casting team? You probably know, but, after slow, you can't haste an auto-hasted knight, the computer views it as hasted already. I'm no master strategist, so I don't know if any sort of action would negate.
yall just couldnt bother to let this thread die could ya?
First off, I'd like to say that it's a shame that a thread with such potential was ruined by idiots. I cannot be bothered to count the number of people who came into this thread and made a ridiculous post without bothering to read at all.
Second, I apologize for bumping a thread that is nearly 9 years old.
Now, let me say that this thread (despite all the BS) is great. Jay, if you're still around, which I doubt, congrats. I have read this thread many, many times in my life and I still believe you're right. I'm actually constructing the same exact team as we speak.
I just wanted to comment on this. It's one of the most informative and interesting topics I've ever had the pleasure to read, minus the 13 year olds acting like morons.
dam, wish I was around when this was going on. I spent the last half hour thinking up builds that could beat this party.
Maybe I'll start up a new PvP thread :)
Someone found this thread recently and my screen name on it as well, reminding me of its existence. I had totally forgotten about this. For the record, 9 years later, Knights are STILL the best basic class in FFT, and specialty Knight classes are still the overall best classes in FFT.
As I think about it, they don't even need two swords to be the best, either!
This thread was sleeping peacefully for six years, so let's let it sleep.
If anyone wants to start or continue this discussion, feel free to start a new thread.