Revelation of Time Compression

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07-29-2006, 11:04 AM
Viator

Ryushikze you said before Big Bang there's no time.
If there's no time before Big Bang, Big Bang cannot happen because the process of Big Bang takes time.
That means there's already time before Big Bang.

I understand why you always said time is finite but you have to know one thing if time is finite time travel is impossible
Time Travel shows us that past,present and future exist at the same time.

Time travel - Parallel Universes - Infinite number of Universes.

If time travel is - even only in theory - possible, this than means that all times (past, present & future) of the Universe must exist simultaneously.

If time travel is - even only in theory - possible, this than means that all possible parallel states of the Universe must also exist, if only in order to avoid those so called 'time paradoxes'.

For example :

Past <------------- Present

Imagine you travel from the present to the past, that means present exist at the same time with the past.
You cannot travel back to the past if past does not exist..

Present ----------> Future

Imagine you travel from the present to the future, that means present and the future exist at the same time.
You cant go to the future if future does not exist.

Past,present and future exist at the same time that means time is infinite.

Time Travel is possible in FF8 that means time is infinite in FF8 World.

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The number of dimensions has no relevance to the size of something. A one-dimensional form - a line - could, in theory, be infinitely long. There's some speculation that time itself IS just a single dimension, much like height and the other physical dimensions.

A Dimension does not need to be detected to exist. If we had no memory of the interval we label as "time," our existence in space/time would still occur.

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I, for one, don't think Ultimecia was going to compress all of time, only a sizeable chunk in the area surrounding her world. Enough to give her basically absolute power, anyway, especially in the eyes of the world's inhabitants.

That's not true.

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Ultimecia's plan, it seems, was to compress the matter and energy from across the ages into a single focal point - herself. The first stages of that process enabled Squall and others to cross into her time, as the various eras became intermingled and less separated from one another.

the reason why Squall and Co can go to Ultimecia's time was because of ellone's Powers.
Ultimecia's plan was to make all of dimension of time exist together at the same time.

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Absorbing time will make A New Dimension of Time where Any Dimension of Time (past,present,future and whatnot) exist together in That New Dimension of Time.
This New Demension of Time will keep contain All Time (past,present,future and whatnot) because time is infinite the process of absorbing time will go on forever, that's why there's 2 Ultimecias, The First Ultimecia will keep absorbing time to make The New Dimension of Time and The Second Ultimecia Ultimecia will/can reign in That New
Dimension of Time.

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Relativity proves that time is flexible. As velocity increases, time slows down. Atomic clocks placed in orbit of the Earth eventually lose synch with clocks on the planet's surface, proving the effect of velocity on the passage of time. A fellow named Einstein had a few words to say about this, too - apparently he was quite a bright chap.
Since this actually happens in the real world, and can be observed through existing technolohy, then yes - it's real. It's a fundamental factor in understanding the malleability of space and time.

That only proved by atomic clock not regular clock.

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It's a fundamental factor in understanding the malleability of space and time.

Energy and Mass can make Time and Space become malleable.
07-29-2006, 01:18 PM
Sir Bahamut

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That only proved by atomic clock not regular clock.

...
07-29-2006, 07:34 PM
Ryushikaze

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Originally Posted by Viator

Ryushikze you said before Big Bang there's no time.
If there's no time before Big Bang, Big Bang cannot happen because the process of Big Bang takes time.
That means there's already time before Big Bang.

No, time is a contained aspect of this universe. It began when the Big Bang happened.

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I understand why you always said time is finite but you have to know one thing if time is finite time travel is impossible
Time Travel shows us that past,present and future exist at the same time.

Time travel - Parallel Universes - Infinite number of Universes.

The alternate universes interpretation of time travel does not hold in FF8.

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If time travel is - even only in theory - possible, this than means that all times (past, present & future) of the Universe must exist simultaneously.

Not necessarily. Wormholes and Reverse time are also equally valid- read not really- methods of time travel as well. And wasn't this supposed to be Ulti's goal in your postulate anyways?

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If time travel is - even only in theory - possible, this than means that all possible parallel states of the Universe must also exist, if only in order to avoid those so called 'time paradoxes'.

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For example :
Past <------------- Present

Imagine you travel from the present to the past, that means present exist at the same time with the past.

No..... ::hand puppet:: HI VIATOR! Repeat after me! The past exists, in the past! YAYYYYY! That's why it's not called the present! YAYYYYY!

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You cannot travel back to the past if past does not exist.

It exists. In the past.

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Present ----------> Future

Imagine you travel from the present to the future, that means present and the future exist at the same time.
You cant go to the future if future does not exist.

::Sock puppet:: I'M IN THE FUTURE! YAY!!!!
But yeah. Otherwise, repeat above with 'future' and more intelligence insulting from the Sock Puppet.

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Past,present and future exist at the same time that means time is infinite.

Follows not at all.

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Time Travel is possible in FF8 that means time is infinite in FF8 World.

Only follows IF time travel works in the way you imagine. You have no support for it working as such, and there are numerous other, more parsimonious versions of time travel.

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A Dimension does not need to be detected to exist. If we had no memory of the interval we label as "time," our existence in space/time would still occur.

No, but it does need to be detected in order for us to have any reason to think it exists.

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That's not true.

EXPLAIN HOW, ya smeghead. How many times have I told you you can't simply say 'wrong' and expect it to fly?

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Ultimecia's plan, it seems, was to compress the matter and energy from across the ages into a single focal point - herself. The first stages of that process enabled Squall and others to cross into her time, as the various eras became intermingled and less separated from one another.

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the reason why Squall and Co can go to Ultimecia's time was because of ellone's Powers.

Evidence, si vous plait. Especially since no one else, period, in game, out of game, or the creators, thinks so.

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Ultimecia's plan was to make all of dimension of time exist together at the same time.

But according to you, they already do.

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That only proved by atomic clock not regular clock.

Ahhhhh.... Comedy gold. You do know Atomic clocks are the most precise clocks out there, yes? Arguing that it only happens because of the clock is silly, since they are noted for how difficult it is to throw them out of synch, based as they are on radioactive decay.
07-30-2006, 01:06 AM
DK

Does anyone else think Viator shuts off his computer at night and bursts out laughing at the rib he's playing on us, and then carries on life as a normal human being? It's either that, or he's mental.

Also, he's been owned by Ryu so hard so many times, and there are extra points for the use of Smeghead. Red Dwarf <3
07-30-2006, 01:59 AM
Moon Rabbits

The actual answer is that Ultimecia is God and transcends all time.

It doesn't say that in the game but I decided that because I am right and the game is not.

There, that's an arguement almost as silly as yours.
07-30-2006, 03:37 AM
Viator

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No, time is a contained aspect of this universe. It began when the Big Bang happened.

I see you still dont understand.
In modern physics and cosmology, space and time are physical and are part of the universe. The big bang did not happen in a pre-existing space and time.
Time already exist before Big Bang if not Big Bang will never occur.

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Not necessarily. Wormholes and Reverse time are also equally valid- read not really- methods of time travel as well. And wasn't this supposed to be Ulti's goal in your postulate anyways?

It's not like what you think.
New Dimension that will contain all Dimension of Time is not the same with past,present and future exist at the same time.

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No..... ::hand puppet:: HI VIATOR! Repeat after me! The past exists, in the past! YAYYYYY! That's why it's not called the present! YAYYYYY!

If you already arrived to the past you dont call that past,past
but you call it your present.

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It exists. In the past.

Past exist in the past shows that time is infinite.
Future exist in the future shows that time is infinite.

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No, but it does need to be detected in order for us to have any reason to think it exists.

If we had no memory of the interval we label as "time," our existence in space/time would still occur.

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EXPLAIN HOW, ya smeghead. How many times have I told you you can't simply say 'wrong' and expect it to fly?

I think Bahamut already explain it.
07-30-2006, 04:49 AM
Ryushikaze

Quote:

Originally Posted by Viator

I see you still dont understand.
In modern physics and cosmology, space and time are physical and are part of the universe. The big bang did not happen in a pre-existing space and time.
Time already exist before Big Bang if not Big Bang will never occur.

No... Time begins with the first change, IE: The big bang. The dimension of time begins with the BB.

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It's not like what you think.
New Dimension that will contain all Dimension of Time is not the same with past,present and future exist at the same time.

1- concession accepted on wormholes and reverse time.
2- Explain how it is different, then. And do not give me a semantic filled response. Give me the practical difference.

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If you already arrived to the past you dont call that past,past
but you call it your present.

Yes, because if one travels to the past, it is the effective 'now', but it is not the same as the 'now' you travelled from. Let's use less vague terms. If one travels from time coordinate 80 to time coordinate 40, time coordinate 40 is not the same time coordinate as 80.

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Past exist in the past shows that time is infinite.
Future exist in the future shows that time is infinite.

Does not follow. Both can exist and still be finite. 1.3 meter exist before 1.5 meter and 1.7 exists after, but if it's only a two meter stretch, it's still finite.

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If we had no memory of the interval we label as "time," our existence in space/time would still occur.

Yes, because change occurs. Without change within the universe, there is no such thing as time. 'Before' change, there is no such thing as 'time'.

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I think Bahamut already explain it.

Irrelevant. YOU have to give an explanation.

And, as is becoming a trend, concession accepted on all unadressed points.
07-30-2006, 12:42 PM
Viator

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No... Time begins with the first change, IE: The big bang. The dimension of time begins with the BB.

Time is infinite meaning time has never started nor will it stop.
If it did have a starting point, at what time did it start? There must be time to start time if it had been started, and if time would stop then nothing will exist as there will be no time to keep everything there, and yes there still will be time if time had stopped so you can’t say time had a starting point or an end.
In modern physics and cosmology, space and time are physical and are part of the universe. The big bang did not happen in a pre-existing space and time.
Time already exist before Big Bang if not Big Bang will never occur.

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2- Explain how it is different, then. And do not give me a semantic filled response. Give me the practical difference.

Past,present and future exist AT THE SAME TIME is different with past,present and future exist TOGETHER.

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Yes, because if one travels to the past, it is the effective 'now', but it is not the same as the 'now' you travelled from. Let's use less vague terms. If one travels from time coordinate 80 to time coordinate 40, time coordinate 40 is not the same time coordinate as 80.

Time travel is possible.
That means past,present and future exist at the same time.

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Does not follow. Both can exist and still be finite. 1.3 meter exist before 1.5 meter and 1.7 exists after, but if it's only a two meter stretch, it's still finite.

Your example doesnt prove time is finite.
07-30-2006, 06:27 PM
Ryushikaze

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Originally Posted by Viator

Time is infinite meaning time has never started nor will it stop.

A priori assumption.

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If it did have a starting point, at what time did it start?

BIG BANG.

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There must be time to start time if it had been started, and if time would stop then nothing will exist as there will be no time to keep everything there, and yes there still will be time if time had stopped so you can’t say time had a starting point or an end.

Existence is not reliant on time. Time is reliant on existence. 'Before' the BB, the concept of 'time' as we consider it was a non issue.

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In modern physics and cosmology, space and time are physical and are part of the universe. The big bang did not happen in a pre-existing space and time.
Time already exist before Big Bang if not Big Bang will never occur.

You keep saying this but fail to realize how it is contradictory.

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Past,present and future exist AT THE SAME TIME is different with past,present and future exist TOGETHER.

For one, that doesn't explain how. For two, alternate dimensions of time is less parsimonious than linear time.

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Time travel is possible.
That means past,present and future exist at the same time.

Again, I say, not necessarily, and not parsimonious.

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Your example doesnt prove time is finite.

And none of your silly little explanations prove that time is infinite.
07-30-2006, 06:40 PM
Sir Bahamut

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Again, I say, not necessarily, and not parsimonious.

I hate to attempt defending Viator, but if Viator means that all of time exists 'simultaneously', then that IS quite parsimonous with the possibility of time travel. That is, the past and future must necessarily exist for timetravel to even be possible, hence although events may be temporally seperated, they can be said to exist "at the same time", or less confusingly, to exist simultaneously.
07-31-2006, 02:12 AM
Ryushikaze

Well, if you're talking about all the time points existing along the same axis without being
used up, sure. But the way Viator explains his is more akin to the Sliders-esque numerous
parallel universes, which is a really wild claim.
07-31-2006, 04:16 AM
Viator

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Existence is not reliant on time. Time is reliant on existence.

Wrong, existance and time need each other to exist.

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You keep saying this but fail to realize how it is contradictory

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In modern physics and cosmology, space and time are physical and are part of the universe. The big bang did not happen in a pre-existing space and time.

Actually that explanation comes from modern physics and cosmology.

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For one, that doesn't explain how. For two, alternate dimensions of time is less parsimonious than linear time.

Absorbing time will make A New Dimension of Time where Any Dimension of Time (past,present,future and whatnot) exist together in That New Dimension of Time.
This New Demension of Time will keep contain All Time (past,present,future and whatnot) because time is infinite the process of absorbing time will go on forever, that's why there's 2 Ultimecias, The First Ultimecia will keep absorbing time to make The New Dimension of Time and The Second Ultimecia Ultimecia will/can reign in That New
Dimension of Time.

I only try to give you a simple picture about what is this New Dimension of Time all about.
Of course that explanation not explain everything about this New Dimension of Time.

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And none of your silly little explanations prove that time is infinite.

Actually I dont need to explain why time is infinite because in reality time is infinite.

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I hate to attempt defending Viator

That explain a lot of things.
07-31-2006, 05:07 AM
Ryushikaze

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Originally Posted by Viator

Wrong, existance and time need each other to exist.

Not really. Existence without change is still existing. Change cannot occur without an existence to change.

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Actually that explanation comes from modern physics and cosmology.

That's not the part where the contradiction comes in. It is the conclusion you draw from that explanation.

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-snip-

I only try to give you a simple picture about what is this New Dimension of Time all about.
Of course that explanation not explain everything about this New Dimension of Time.

Oh, so you admit it's a crappy explanation. And it is. Especially since it is in all ways functionally identical to time compression, except that you insist it goes on forever and that Ultimecia's two forms do something different than their scan info states.

By the by, I realize you keep trying to use the term 'dimension' equivocally. I suggest you don't. For one, it makes your already fuddled argument worse, and for two, it's bad debating.

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Actually I dont need to explain why time is infinite because in reality time is infinite.

So you assume a priori. I will admit that there IS a chance that time is infinite, but seeing as nothing which is infinite can be shown to exist, the parsimonious assumption is that time, which is a function of the finite universe, is also finite.
07-31-2006, 10:25 AM
Viator

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Not really. Existence without change is still existing. Change cannot occur without an existence to change.

Existance need time to change.
Existance cannot change without time.

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Oh, so you admit it's a crappy explanation. And it is. Especially since it is in all ways functionally identical to time compression, except that you insist it goes on forever and that Ultimecia's two forms do something different than their scan info states.

That is not crappy explanation but that is simple explanation about New Dimension of Time.

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By the by, I realize you keep trying to use the term 'dimension' equivocally. I suggest you don't. For one, it makes your already fuddled argument worse, and for two, it's bad debating.

Using dimension term is the best way to explain time.

If space/time came into existence with Big Bang, how could the cosmos be of infinite volume?

It appears that universe is either infinite, containing an infinite number of finite systems, or, it is finite, containing a finite number of infinite systems...which seems much more difficult to grasp than infinity itself.

The universe is only finite in its infinite capacities
08-01-2006, 05:03 AM
Ryushikaze

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Originally Posted by Viator

Existance need time to change.
Existance cannot change without time.

But it can exist without changing.

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That is not crappy explanation but that is simple explanation about New Dimension of Time.

Your explanation requires more terms, arrives at the same result, and fails to fully explain itself. It is a terrible explanation.
Though to give you the benefit of the doubt, don't simplify. Explain it. FULLY.

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Using dimension term is the best way to explain time.

Not when you use definitions interchangeably. And I agree, 'dimension' is a good way to explain time. But only as in '4th dimension' or 'W axis', not in the sense of parallel as you have been using.

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If space/time came into existence with Big Bang, how could the cosmos be of infinite volume?

Who says that it is? Of course, the trick isn't the volume. It's the mass.

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It appears that universe is either infinite, containing an infinite number of finite systems, or, it is finite, containing a finite number of infinite systems...which seems much more difficult to grasp than infinity itself.

Ad obfuscatum is not a good way to debate. Elaborate. There are several ways to interpret that chunk of vagueness, and I'd rather not waste time adressing them all.

And why do you assume 'finite number of infinite systems'. NOTHING infinite has ever been observed. Infinite suffers the burden of proof.

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The universe is only finite in its infinite capacities

The. Universe. Is. Finite. Until. Proven. Otherwise. PERIOD.

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