Printable View
The entire opera scene for a start. I mean, really, now. Not to mention Kefka actually somehow rising up through the military ranks without anyone realising he's pure evil. Sabin suplexes a moving train. Do I really have to go on? xD Every FF is full of things that are unbelievable.
If you're legitimately saying that FFVIII is worse than all the insanely terrible or outright broken games that have ever been made, well... yeah.
The Train is just an in-battle animation, not something story based. I don't count Sephiroth destroying the universe multiple times either. :p
Ghestal Knew Kefka was pure evil, that's why he used him. Kefka was willing to do the diabolical and horrible trout the emperor needed done. Kefka usurping him was more Ghestal thinking he could control Kefka, not so much that he trusted him.
And the Opera Scene? Really? Celes looked like Maria, this happens in real like. I can recount at least three times I've scene a guy who looks practically Identical to someone I knew, enough so I started talking to them like they were that person. Celes looking enough like Maria to be mistaken for her is no way a suspension of Disbelief.
And yeah, games have trout that are 'unbelievable'. This is not the same thing as breaking the suspension of disbelief. That very term means your ability to suspend your belief of what's possible. For example, magic is not possible. However, for purpose of a story, I'll accept it's possible in the world.
Clouds Sword would be unwieldy as all smurf, yet I can suspend my disbelief enough to run with cloud wielding it effectively. Especially since they at least give him the reason of being enhanced by Mako, giving him more strength then a normal person would be capable of. This is a game where only people who have this super human ability seem able to wield more absurd weapons.
The Gunblade is a large sword with a pistol grip duct taped onto it. Why is this harder to establish my disbelief for? Well for one, I cannot fathom an advantage to holding the weapon that way. And the way it works, using the force of the bullets and what not to create a vibration in the blade, would not require you to hold a weapon in a way that would smurf up your wrist by giving it a good swing. Mind you, the suspension of disbelief may vary from person to person. Glad I could clear up the misconception for you. :p
Though if you'd like, I could give you more ways the writing itself is bungled up in VIII! :monster:
(SPOILER)Seed shows up on T.V. when attacking the president guy, and everyone looks at Zell like he's a smurfing Idiot for announcing Seeds involvment. No one looks at Squall and Seifer as if they are idiots, even though they are wielding gunblades. These are weapons the game established early on are ONLY used by members of the Garden.
Oh, yeah, true. Looked like her. Sang like her. I didn't even consider these things when I was mentioning the opera scene. xD For me, the entire idea that the entire opera plot actually happened in the first place is completely absurd.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoCracker
Quote:
Mind you, the suspension of disbelief may vary from person to person. Glad I could clear up the misconception for you. :p
Oh, you don't need to do that, I thought a lot of things about the story were rubbish, but I just keep in mind that I'm playing a video game and rarely care about such things. I think "well, that's silly/absurd" and then carry on. I can still appreciate the game itself despite such things, and don't think FFVIII is that much worse (if worse at all) than the rest of the FF series.Quote:
Though if you'd like, I could give you more ways the writing itself is bungled up in VIII! :monster:
Compare it to, say, Duke Nukem Forever... and... well... yeah. I played Devil's Advocate to others and to myself over DNF for about five minutes before getting a bit further in the game and then realising how bad it really was.
I tend to take a game story as seriously as the game takes it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loony BoBOh, yeah, true. Looked like her. Sang like her. I didn't even consider these things when I was mentioning the opera scene. xD For me, the entire idea that the entire opera plot actually happened in the first place is completely absurd.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoCracker
Quote:
Mind you, the suspension of disbelief may vary from person to person. Glad I could clear up the misconception for you. :p
Oh, you don't need to do that, I thought a lot of things about the story were rubbish, but I just keep in mind that I'm playing a video game and rarely care about such things. I think "well, that's silly/absurd" and then carry on. I can still appreciate the game itself despite such things, and don't think FFVIII is that much worse (if worse at all) than the rest of the FF series.Quote:
Though if you'd like, I could give you more ways the writing itself is bungled up in VIII! :monster:
Compare it to, say, Duke Nukem Forever... and... well... yeah. I played Devil's Advocate to others and to myself over DNF for about five minutes before getting a bit further in the game and then realising how bad it really was.
I mean Katamari is goofy as all smurf, but that's what it was going for, so I'll judge it on it's ability to be goofy and absurd as smurf. FF VIII tried to take itself seriously and present itself as a deep narrative, so I judge it as such.
I have no comments on Duke Nukem though. :p
Also, since you are on the second Continent, you can go ahead and overlook the Beatrix Spoiler, as it won't ruin anything for you anymore. :p
5. Final Fantasy IX (PSX)
First and foremost, I give a preemptive smurf you to the people who say the graphics look terrible on this game. The designs, even without the emulator, were always clear to me and looked great. I never understood the comments that the game looked smooshed together. At worst you’d have a lot of times things seemed rather pixilated, but that was it. Moving on to actually discussing the game though. :p
I got this game around the same time I had gotten FF VIII, both Christmas presents at the time. Obviously deciding from an early age IX was the superior choice of game, I do except it has a couple big drawbacks. The biggest of which being a rather slow paced battle system. There was also the rather wasted use of their Trance System, happening so rarely and at such inopportune times it became almost pointless. Then you had a couple characters whose stories were not handled to well. Amarant’s was pretty lack luster and lacked much fleshing out as a character, and while Freya’s was awesome, and she gets some great scenes in the game, her actually story ended rather abruptly.
Still though, the writing of this game is absolutely fantastic. Even Amarant, the least fleshed out of your party, is really only inhibited by the lack of screen time given. Even Freya after her main story arc is over still continues to have a lot of great moments in the game. I love how the game uses it's cast so well even when the focus isn't on them specifically.
The skill customization is also great, giving you so many points to spread between a variety of passive skills for your characters. There are definitely some that outshine others, but there is definitely room there for some fun customizations. Not enough to really change your party based strategy though, just enough for situational tweaking.
I would probably rate it the third hardest FF next to IV and Tactics, similar in difficulty to V. Not saying much, I admit, as this is not a series known for it’s ball busting. If anything, that’s probably what holds the game back for me more then anything else, but regardless of a relative ease it still requires some thought to progress, which is the least I ask for in a games difficulty.
Two characters I’ll gush about now I will Spoil for Bob’s sake, but I’ll get into why I love two of the games antagonists in Beatrix and Kuja.
BeatrixGod I love this woman. Probably my third favorite character of the game behind Kuja and Zidane, there is a damn good argument that could be made for her being the best written NPC in the series. Her struggle feels real and genuine, caught between her oath of fealty, something she holds close showing a strong sense of honor, and the reason she took the oath to begin with. They did a wonderful job showing her internal strife as time went on, and I loved her finally turning on Bahrne as she saw not only Steiner, but these people who had nothing to do with Garnet fighting to protect her with their lives, doing the job she herself felt she should have been doing this whole time. The stand of Beatrix, Steiner, and Freya to cover the escape of Garnet was absolutely wonderful.
KujaRegardless of the more effeminate look, Kuja comes with this arrogant and vicious nature about him. And dear god does he have a wonderful motivation and character. Yes, he is arrogant and evil, but his reasoning extends so far beyond that. He is tied to an inescapable fate handed down to him by Garland. Worse yet, he knows how disposable he is in the eyes of Garland due to Zidane being there as his replacement. You can truly understand his resentment as Zidane has everything Kuja lacks, the ability to control his own fate.
Even though he’s a villain, it’s rather tragic that even when he surpasses’s Garland and unlocks the trance, there is still the revelation that all the power he has sought after and finally obtained was for naught. He is still bound by the fate and end Garland gave to him, and then he finally flips at the end.
I know people say they disliked Kuja because that was akin to a child throwing a tantrum, but that’s exactly what it is I loved about it. He may be calculating and, on the surface, calm, but the true terror of Kuja is in his volatile emotions. And with a guy like that, what would you expact to happen when even after obtaining your goal, you simple learn the futility of it all, that you truly can do nothing about your fate? Shrug his shoulders and go, well smurf, that was a waste of time.
And now I hope you all accept that Final Fantasy IX is the best Final Fantasy, and move on with your lives.
While I don't think that FFIX is the best FF (yet to finish the game, who knows), it is certainly the best of the FF's I've played after hearing them get hyped up, which is saying something. Streets ahead of FFVI for me, it's really enjoyable and the script is good (not an assured thing in FF games by any means).
IX is definitely my favorite of the numbered games.
When I watched the ending credits to FFIX in 2001, I really did feel like I had just finished the greatest game I had ever played. People's eyes bulged out and then squinted as they dismissed me, because they couldn't believe I thought it was better than Final Fantasy VII. But after many replays, VII edges it out for a few reasons:
1. Combat - it's well balanced with a good challenge, but it's too slow and not as cinematic, whereas VII is fast, flashy, responsive, and overall fun to play. Plus, you can just skip a few battles and bring that challenge back.
2. Setting - FFIX has a GREAT setting, but it lacks variety and originality. Midgar was one of the most creative things I've ever seen and the constant contrasts in a world where nature is literally fighting technology made it stand out not just as an FF title, but as a fantasy work.
3. Music - Both games have some of my favorite tracks in any game, but I think FFVII was Uematsu's best work and a little more imaginative.
Regardless, I'm still glad to see IX so high on the list.
Pretty much any argument for FFVIII being on the worst games list following the mention of DNF is moot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loony BoB
My girl here speaks truth.
4. Persona 3 (PS2)
This game was my introduction to Shin Megami Tensai, and the title that made be begin keeping an eye out for Atlus in general, not realizing Atlus USA were the ones who published Brigandine in the US. This was such a new experience in terms of gaming, and I loved how well constructed it was.
Because it’s relevant, I will bring up a lot of the games systems are based off a previous game from Shin Megami Tensai, Nocturne. However, having finally played Nocturne, while a great Idea it was clear they didn’t quite have the formula down yet, being just straight out unfair to the player. Three times in a row, this was the first Random encounter of the game. Round 1) Enemy goes first, hits critical. Follows up with second attack, it’s critical. Game over.
That said, Persona 3 refined a lot of that games problems, and what we have is one of the best games ever launched. First and foremost, this game is challenging. This game is very challenging. Oh dear god, there is not an RPG out there harder then this one. It does have some issues startling the line between fair and unfair, the best example of this being the sleeping table, though on a whole they do a great job. Though the difficultly drops off rapidly post Sleeping table, though that's like, the last quarter of the game.
Then there is an issue that people have, and I think it is a fair complaint, even if I don’t agree with it. That is the auto-pilot your other party members follow. Now I feel there are plenty of options for the AI with combat modes and an AI that runs well and predictably enough it’s not an issue. I understand not liking AI, which I’ve had problems with in the past, but I feel they give you just enough control to keep it from being an issue while keeping the games theme of the characters being separate and what not.
The dark design of the games art is superb. It does such a wonderful job at setting the mood and atmosphere you actually end up feeling uneasy during the Full Moon story events. The wold you are in during the day is warped into this dark and twisted version of itself in the most wonderful way.
The other big aspect, the social links, could have bombed so hard. It requires some amazing characters to make this anything but boring and droll, especially since the links and stories don’t really have an effect on the plot in general. But damn the writing is wonderful. Even without the benefits completing social links I see myself doing some of these every time. The best being The Sun, as the links are named after Tarrot cards, for being an absolutely wonderful and heartbreaking story. The conclusion of Sun is one of the closest moments I ever came to tearing up during a game or any kind of book or movie.
No PC feels like they are left behind, except the dog really. Your entire party feels important, even if they do get overshadows by the likes of Aegis, probably the only character you get in your party with a direct connection to the main plot at large. Still though, each character gets plenty of moments to shine, a personal favorite moment being Junpei awakening to the second form of his Persona. I’ll avoid spoiling it for people who have yet to see it.
And oh, the actual combat system. There is so much I could go into due to the depth of the game I won’t actually be touching on all of it. However, there are two things I’ll touch on. Firstly the use of three types of physical attacks. This really helped to keep Physical attacks and magic on equal terms in terms of usefulness, yet still keeping plenty of reasons to use one over the other.
The other is how much fun it is having your main character switching between Persona’s mid battle. Constantly changing weakness’s and strengths, it takes a lot of thought to keep yourself safe and not screwing yourself over. While there are definitely times it’s unfair, the clear majority of the time you die you know it’s entirely on you getting careless. So many options, so many ways to screw yourself if you are not careful.
If I were to pick out probably the biggest problem with this game, though, it’s the lack of main plot. Now here me out, what they have is wonderful and amazingly written, but in terms of story relating directly to the main plot is pretty sparse. After the introduction, the first real twist to the plot comes with Ikutski and Aegis like, 75% of the way into the game. The entirety of the story seems to be use of Symbolism and atmosphere, both of which are handled absolutely wonderfully. Still does not change how little plot ends up being devoted to the main story in general.
Oh, and a bit of a fan boy moment to end this, FF X fans? Takaya is everything Square wanted Seymore to be. Rather then being a major factor in the main story in general, he is in the game to give you an antagonist through your journey, and rather then move the plot itself forward, they both exist to show you exactly why everything in the world is happening. As a character and a Window into the worlds problems, Takaya is absolutely wonderful. His design, his dialogue, his motivations and goals, Takaya is easily the best part of this game.
While your latest entry is excellent, I feel that you did the game injustice by not at least bringing up its remakes.
Persona 3 FES brought us the Answer, which fleshed out a number of things about the stories and characters, as well as gave some chilling revelations about the plot and world.
And Persona 3 Portable brought us the Female Protagonist and her revamped Social Links, which took many of the poorer links and replaced them, most of them now being new links with members of SEES.
As for the story, I can see your point, but I don't quite agree with it. It is definitely not a standard presentation or plot development, that much is true. There are few twists, and only a few story events and cutscenes. But the story of Persona 3 is the story of a world, and it tells it beautifully. It's not the story of a handful of people, or of the Shadows, its a story of the world's balance between hope and despair, and how that plays out, and its this story that makes the game so powerful.
The atmosphere is the story. Watching the Lost increase in numbers, watching the town shift as people's perceptions of the events change and warp, watching the events and Social Links as your team adjusts to the horrible nature of the battle they're facing, listening to the music at school or around town shift as the months go by and the entire collective attitude of the town changes.
The story isn't a straightforward or literal one. It isn't about your battles against Strega or even your fight against the Shadows. It's a much deep, more fundamental one, a battle between two sides of the human soul, and it is exquisite.
There was no way in hell I could have covered everything wonderful about that game in just one write up without it going on forever. :p
I absolutely adored FES as Aegis was my favorite character. :p
And I agree with your description, that is what I meant about the story being mostly Symbolic in nature. And I love it. In the end though, I don't think a more detailed narrative needs sacrificed for it.
And I don't buy 'the atmosphere is the story'. For example, read any of H.P. Lovecrafts better stories, and they come with an incredible atmosphere, and a full and detailed Narrative. The Atmosphere is used to enhance a story and make it feel alive, it is not a substitute.
Edit: Also, something I didn't mention in the write up, a huge drawback of this game is Dungeon design is smurfing awful.
No, it doesn't need to come at the expense of a story. Persona 4, for example, did quite well in handling both as well (though it failed in some other areas, which is why I still prefer P3).Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoCracker
But my point is that the game's atmosphere, and how that atmosphere changes, is its own story. It's not the game's only story (heck, each Social Link is its own story), but it is still a story, and in many ways it is the largest and most important story to the game's events, and it is what ties all of the disparate elements together. Everything is disconnected at a glance, yes, but almost everything in the game ties in with that main plot.
And, yes, dungeon design is awful (even for a procedurally generated dungeon). Which is a shame. But, honestly, you could cut out most of the dungeon with little trouble.
3. Xenosaga Episodes 1+2 (PS2)
2. Xenosaga Episode 3 (PS2)
Oh god I love these games. I’ll say that yes, there are some clear problems with the series, even outside of 2, but in the end it does more good then bad. So, lets take a look over what is one of my favorite and most enjoyable series out there.
To start with, I fully admit to forgiving Xenosaga 2 more then I should, especially since it introduces one of my most hated aspects of some RPG’s into the mix, that being making your character choices almost Superfluous. Anyone is capable of learning any ability in the game by using various creation points. Wanna turn your cyborg body guard into a castor? GO FOR IT! Little Girl tanking? SURE! There is still some individuality, but the game does do a good job at minimizing that. Two also features enemies with way to many hit points, making even easier battles drag on a lot longer then they should. Finally, considering the games length, it does a poor job at adding to the overall plot of the series. It adds some great elements to be sure, but not enough.
Where two shines for me though is the absolutely wonderful story behind the U.R.T.V’s and Dmitri Yuriev, one of the games Antagonists. You get to witness Albedo’s decent to madness from the beginning, and I don’t know if I’ve ever seen a villains back story so well written before. You can truly understand why he devolved into the mad man he is during the main story, and you can understand his goals and motivation for doing what he does better then most villains. And the story added some much needed insight into the events of Miltia, a planet lost due to the various factors that the first game only alluded too, and really helped to flesh out the world and events of the series. Where the story didn’t really work, however, was even with all the fleshing out it did, there wasn’t really much a forward movement to the story at large.
With that out of the way, one thing this game does remarkably well is that through all three games there is not a single character that feels wasted. NPC’s and PC’s alike all get an excellent amount of screen time, and no one is left behind. I cannot think of another game that does this as well as Xenosaga. This is even better when you take into account the amazing writing of the characters. The only one that feels lacking in that regard, saddly, is our main character Shion. She may lack the depth of the rest of the cast, but considering she is, at the very least, an average character in terms of quality, I think Xenosaga is doing just fine.
In all three games, the battle system can feel a bit slow, though with the exception of 2, there are definitely slower, expecially considering some of the other games on my list. That said, there is a lot of fun to be had. Three, however, is the best by far. Also the only one of the games to include fun battles in your giant mechs. We’ll not get into the disaster that was Episode 2‘s mech battle’s, but 3 was so fun and intuitive. While the Pilots were consistent, your other characters would act as Co-Pilots, altering abilities depending on who was put in each mech. While it still operates the same for the most part, the differences are astounding depending on the co-pilot. And while at the core mechanics it runs the same as the normal battles, there are a few differences here and their to keep it fresh.
And, once again ignoring 2 in this equation, these games show some great systems for customizing your characters, all while keeping them with battle roles that make sense for the characters. More so I loved 3‘s, as is the running theme of this write up. Addition to the normal method of investing points into your stats, you have points to invest in one of two paths with each character. Using Ziggy as an example, he has both a body guard path as well as a more assault based path. Each path changes the way the character is used, but it always makes sense for the character themselves. One of the best leveling systems I’ve seen in a JRPG.
And the villains. So many wonderful villains. Margulus, Albedo, Dmitri, Voyager, the list goes on. Not one villain was poorly handled. Yes, this includes Windhelm, and while I don’t want this to turn into another Saga Vs. Gears argument, since I did go back and read Wolf’s last post on the Gears argument, so when I have the motivation there will likely be a Windhelm vs. Krellion argument happening. For now though, I’ll say this is probably my favorite set of villains from pretty much any game series out there.
I could go on, but I think it’s a good place to wrap it up. The most expansive and epic story I have ever had the privilege to play, the quantity and quality far out weigh the series negatives, even when they get pretty big like the Realian’s story getting cut. Or game two.
Final Fantasy IX is my favorite game of all time and the Xenosaga trilogy is definitely up there :jess:
The Xenosaga series is probably my absolute favorite video game series. I think the series is a masterpiece.