Final Fantasy Villains - Most Powerful

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Originally Posted by Ashley Schovitz

Why is no one mentioning Vayne,Seymour, or Zeromus?

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Because the most powerful villains are Ex-Death and Ultimecia. The other villains don't need to be mentioned, really. It's obvious to anyone that these two villains are in the level of endangering the existence of the universe itself(using their own power). Don't exist any other FF villain that come close to them.

Now, it would be very interesting to try to find out who of them is the most powerful. Ex-Death or Ultimecia?

And Forsaken Lover, you can ignore the evidence presented in FFVIII if you want. I don't care. It seems that when you created this thread, you didn't want to know other people's opinions. You just wanted to show everyone, how your loveable Kuja is awesome. Unfortunately for you, it didn't work.

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Originally Posted by TyphoonThaReapa

It matters not what they accomplished. What Their capable of is what this thread is about.

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Everything matters on what they have accomplished. They could have all been capable of doing more under certain conditions. But they are not given the conditions on what they would have liked, so wouldn't we look at what they were able to do? A person being capable of doing something doesn't matter at all if they didn't do it.

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Originally Posted by The Crystal

ignore the evidence presented in FFVIII

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You mean the one sentence of scan information?

Also, I do think Zeromus should get mentioned. Zeromus was after all, the epitome of Zemus' hate and he was "invincible." What I mean is, the party was unable to hurt him and he was also able to take down the party, like Kuja (Though they were revived by their friends). But somehow, by Cecil using The Crystal (no, not the person who posted on this thread :p) he was weakened.

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Originally Posted by PuPu

A person being capable of doing something doesn't matter at all if they didn't do it.

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Why? We are talking about the power of the villains. If a villain didn't have the chance to do something in the story, but we are 100% sure the villain has the power to do it, why we have to ignore this power?

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You mean the one sentence of scan information?

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Yes.

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Also, I do think Zeromus should get mentioned. Zeromus was after all, the epitome of Zemus' hate and he was "invincible." What I mean is, the party was unable to hurt him and he was also able to take down the party, like Kuja (Though they were revived by their friends). But somehow, by Cecil using The Crystal (no, not the person who posted on this thread :p) he was weakened.

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Zeromus cannot be hurt by evil right? In that case, the FF villains cannot kill him. But that don't make him the strongest. If he don't have the power to kill them, he cannot be considered the most powerful, he would be just a punch-bag to them.
And Ex-Death don't need to kill him. Send him to the Void is enough to win. The same with Ultimecia. Absorb him, and she wins(AND gain his powers, because he would be part of her).

Sad she can't absorb anyone unless they're KO'ed as SPECIFICALLY showed in the battle with her.

If you want to maintain she can absorb Kuja or Zeromus, PROVE IT. Show me ONE PERSON SHE ABSORBED.

No one? Then get lost.



If you want to believe a piece of crap line that contradicts everything in the game, fine.

In the end, Kuja blows her away with one Ultima since, going by actual PROOF, she is horribly weak and nothing suggests she could survive this attack.

Kuja did more than she did in terms of destruction and durability.

Okay, first off "Plot Protection" is a horrible argument. If a story is so weak "Plot Protection" is your only argument as to how the heroes can possibly win, I have no Idea how you can enjoy the games story.

Also, you say you watch her absorbing the Stars. If she could absorb all instantly as you seem to claim, why can you see any stars getting absorbed at all? They should all be gone in a moment.

Finally, given the fact that the heroes were able to fight her at all, means that she can't absorb all time in an instant. Meaning there is a period of battle there her ability does her no good at all. Not even a little bit. Even Neo-Exdeath suffered from this same problem. Neither can make use of that ability if someone appears before them to fight.

Others, like Kuja and Kefka, use their full power at will.

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Originally Posted by NeoCracker

Okay, first off "Plot Protection" is a horrible argument. If a story is so weak "Plot Protection" is your only argument as to how the heroes can possibly win, I have no Idea how you can enjoy the games story.

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"Plot Protection" is what make the main character(s) win, in MANY works of fiction. A villain being incredible powerful, but not using his power because of arrogance, and giving the oportunity to the heros defeat him/her because of that, is an example of "Plot Protection". Make the villain arrogant to be defeated by the heros(that are weaker than him/her), is the Plot making the heros win. But it doesn't mean the main characters are more powerful than the villain. Making the villain subconsciously wanting to lose, is another example of "Plot Protection" to the heros. And many more...
The main characters ALLWAYS win, no mater what.
This is why i say, that the best way to judge the power of a villain, is by his/her feats in the story, not the heros that defeated him/her. Because they will always win, they are the main characters after all.

The fact is: SeeD DONT have more power than her. They CANNOT absorb the friggin universe. They cannot absorb planets, solar systems, stars, galaxys, TIME AND SPACE itself, etc. They never showed this level of power, and they cannot do that.
"Plot Protection" is the only explanation that make sense.

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Also, you say you watch her absorbing the Stars. If she could absorb all instantly as you seem to claim, why can you see any stars getting absorbed at all? They should all be gone in a moment.

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The universe is HUGE! This is why she take time to absorb all of it. But Kefka, or Kuja, or Sephiroth, are nothing compared to all existence.
Kuja is like a grain of sand in a big desert(the universe). Ultimecia take time to absorb all the desert because of its size, but absorbing a grand of sand(Kuja) would be very easy and fast.

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Finally, given the fact that the heroes were able to fight her at all, means that she can't absorb all time in an instant. Meaning there is a period of battle there her ability does her no good at all. Not even a little bit. Even Neo-Exdeath suffered from this same problem. Neither can make use of that ability if someone appears before them to fight.

Others, like Kuja and Kefka, use their full power at will.

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The heroes were able to fight her at all, because of "Plot Protection". Maybe she wanted to play with them and underestimated them? Who knows. But please, don't say they won by having more power than her. Because they hasn't.

So, what you're saying Crystal is:

That quote, which makes the entire plot irrelevant, is what we base her power on?

Something she herself never hinted at wanting or caring about is what she was doing?

And you're arguing the last fight was actually in space? lol That's the weakest one yet.

And no one cares about you making excuses. We care about -evidence.- What did you say earlier? WHat SE thinks > what I think? And yet you go right ahead and argue your position, not supported anywhere in the game or canon, that "Plot Protection" allowed them to survive. I'll just remind you this is YOUR idea alone and is supported by nothing.

I'm also starting to think you're full of it. I remember scanning Ultimecia's final form and all it said was something like this is the form she took on for Time Compression.

I will quote a Theory I had read in another forum made by a member named Panthera. Maybe Ultimecia was not as powerful as we thought, but still was really powerful. Also, I will only post ONCE in this thread, as I'm not interested in fighting with others about my opinion, because is my opinion and my opinion alone, and I don't care to force it in others. I'm just showing up what I think.

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Originally Posted by Panthera

Okay, we all know the usual way of referring to post-Time Compression Ultimecia: Practically a god, arguably the most powerful entity in the FF series [Neo ExDeath being the usual other candidate]. And that seems pretty logical. After all, a being who has absorbed all that has ever or will ever existed ought to have some pretty hefty power. However, there has always been the glaring issue of how the hell she managed to be defeated by people who are undeniably vastly inferior. All arguments about exactly how much the GFs enhance Squall and co aside, we can all agree that there's no reason a handful of GFs can somehow trump the power of every sorceress that has ever existed, in addition to everything else that ever has been or ever will be. The answer, of course, is fate, but how? There seem to be two ways of interpreting it. The one that seems most common is the idea that fate grants them, Squall especially, a vast new power so that he can match her. Hence why people will refer to Squall in VS topics as being able to win "if he gets his DEM powers". The other, which I personally believe [and have been debating with TDL over at the Square Enix board on and off for a month or more now], is that fate caused her to simply make a mistake and allow Squall to stab her-the key to this being that all her great power doesn't actually make her physical body much more durable than anyone else. Still, how does one make a mistake when all they need to do is put up a shield and laugh at the ants poking it? And why would Squall suddenly get vast power without any plot recognition of it? It seems to me that there may be another alternative: Ultimecia is not the reality-controlling god of time we thought she was. This theory has likely been thought of before, but I can't recall having seen it, and I figure, why not?

"A sorceress trying to change the world by compressing time and taking power
from all sorceresses."

That is Ultimecia's scan info in her first form [wording taken from Sir Bahamut's Time/Ultimecia Plot FAQ for this and the next quote]. What I find interesting is the use of the present tense. According to this, she didn't TRY to change the world, she is TRYING to change the world. Is this a hint that Ultimecia has not yet absorbed all that power?

"Ultimecia, transformed to absorb all time and space. Absorbing all existence as we speak."

And her final form's scan info. The key to this theory. First, a look at the first half of it. "Ultimecia, transformed to absorb all time and space". Isn't in interesting that they would refer to her in that way? Prior to the final part of the battle, she hasn't transformed. She fights in her normal form, uses Griever, junctions "herself unto Griever", but doesn't actually transform herself in the way this seems to indicate. So prior to the final stage of the final battle, Ultimecia isn't actually absorbing anything by the looks of it! That is further confirmed by the second half, saying that the absorbing is happening during the battle. To me, this means that she hasn't even started to absorb time and space until the very end of the fight against her. She compressed time, yes, but hadn't absorbed it yet. This could also explain a discrepancy I've always noted that appears in her speech before the fight. The price for your meddling is death beyond death. I shall send you to a dimension beyond your imagining. There, I will reign, and you will be my slaves for eternity.

How exactly would she go about doing that? It's always puzzled me why we have TC referred to as being a set up where only Ultimecia can exist, and yet she some how refers to making them her slaves. My theory explains that: TC is NOT absorbtion included. She has to compress time, THEN absorb it. Hence this line now makes sense: once she absorbs reality, they will be in a dimension she rules.

In summary, Ultimecia compresses time, but does not start absorbing it until the end of the final battle. This would mean she is not as powerful as we thought, as she never finished the process, and didn't even start it until shortly before death.

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I don't care what others think, and I don't want to push my ideas in others, but I think Ultimecia is, aside Ex-Death, one of the two most powerful beings in the Final Fantasy series.

*EDITGAAA!!!*
Oh, and another thing. It's a SHAME you are fighting for a thing so trivial like "who is the most powerful villain", because every villain in every game is the most powerful in his/her own ways, and it's just the opinion of every person that decides which one they are going to consider the strongest, being it RAW power, Tactical power, God-like power, Political power, Emotional power, etc., etc.

So, stop fighting like kids trying to decide which superhero or dad is greatest. It's a opinion decision, not a universal law.

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Originally Posted by The Crystal

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Originally Posted by NeoCracker

Okay, first off "Plot Protection" is a horrible argument. If a story is so weak "Plot Protection" is your only argument as to how the heroes can possibly win, I have no Idea how you can enjoy the games story.

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"Plot Protection" is what make the main character(s) win, in MANY works of fiction. A villain being incredible powerful, but not using his power because of arrogance, and giving the oportunity to the heros defeat him/her because of that, is an example of "Plot Protection". Make the villain arrogant to be defeated by the heros(that are weaker than him/her), is the Plot making the heros win. But it doesn't mean the main characters are more powerful than the villain. Making the villain subconsciously wanting to lose, is another example of "Plot Protection" to the heros. And many more...
The main characters ALLWAYS win, no mater what.
This is why i say, that the best way to judge the power of a villain, is by his/her feats in the story, not the heros that defeated him/her. Because they will always win, they are the main characters after all.

The fact is: SeeD DONT have more power than her. They CANNOT absorb the friggin universe. They cannot absorb planets, solar systems, stars, galaxys, TIME AND SPACE itself, etc. They never showed this level of power, and they cannot do that.
"Plot Protection" is the only explanation that make sense.

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Also, you say you watch her absorbing the Stars. If she could absorb all instantly as you seem to claim, why can you see any stars getting absorbed at all? They should all be gone in a moment.

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The universe is HUGE! This is why she take time to absorb all of it. But Kefka, or Kuja, or Sephiroth, are nothing compared to all existence.
Kuja is like a grain of sand in a big desert(the universe). Ultimecia take time to absorb all the desert because of its size, but absorbing a grand of sand(Kuja) would be very easy and fast.

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Finally, given the fact that the heroes were able to fight her at all, means that she can't absorb all time in an instant. Meaning there is a period of battle there her ability does her no good at all. Not even a little bit. Even Neo-Exdeath suffered from this same problem. Neither can make use of that ability if someone appears before them to fight.

Others, like Kuja and Kefka, use their full power at will.

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The heroes were able to fight her at all, because of "Plot Protection". Maybe she wanted to play with them and underestimated them? Who knows. But please, don't say they won by having more power than her. Because they hasn't.

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Yes, of course heroes are going to win. However, Plot Protection alone is rarely the reason. A person being underestimating the heroes can allow them to win, yes. However, that is a reason outside of Plot Protection.

On that note, Ultimecia hardly seems like a villian who would toy around with someone. Recall when Squall attacked her during the parade, she blasted him and was done with it, went right on with her business.

Now lets look at it from this point. She is absorbing STars, which are massive, and much farther away from her than the party. How exactly is she absorbing these stars, which are far larger and much farther away from the party, before the party? Now don't give me this "Plot PRotection" Garbage, give me the reason. She doesn't seem like the type to toy with people, and never once do I recall any hints at all to her wanting to "Subconciously lose" the fight. IF you want to claim these, prove it. Script from the game, actions of characters, anything.

Given it never said she could absorb space and time at the rate you seem to believe, the only logical conclusion is she cannot. And since you are the one who claims she can, you get to provide the "Evidence" and not unfounded conclusions.

I stil lwonder hwo absorbing time and existence made Ultimecia the most powerful villain ever. She appeared pretty weak to me in her first three forms, so she wan't powerful to absorb time. And her Final Form that absorbed time and existence? Hell's Judgement and Apocalypse. That's it. If Time Compression and absorbing all of existence make her almighty... Why don't we see that then? When Kuja went in Trance, his Ultima blows all out of his way. Kefka got the statues and clearly used them.

I still wonder what power TC gave Ultimecia. Absorbing time and existence doesn't make one 'powerful' but very skilled. Skilled she could achieve it. But, in terms of power, Ultimecia didn't seem to have much trouble compressing time or absorbing it. She just had to get beaten trice to get to her Final Form. Or is the excuse this time that you already had beaten 3 forms and making her FF very powerful would be unfair?

Never said Ultimecia was bad or something, but if she's the most 'powerful villain of all time in FF' I'm not too sure about. After she didn't seem to be incredibly powerful when she compressed time (game-wise speaking) and her Final Form only had 2 attacks. And that for a being that absorbed all? It was stunning she achiever her nothingness, but what powers it gave her I still wonder. Oh well, guess it was the same with Kefka. 3 battles and the clown himself is pretty easy.

I understand the fact that everyone here has an opinion here. And arguing is indeed childish. BUT, what would a thread like this be without a good argument...:rolleyes2

Now then, I believe there's two people here that are obviously in denial. What do you guys mean give evidence? WE HAVE EVIDENCE!!! The scan said she transformed to her final form to absorb all of existence. SquareEnix knew what they were doing when they put that. And it doesn't matter whether she did it or not. What REALLY matter is the fact that she HAS THE POWER TO DO SO. Can Yu-Yevon absorb existence? Can Sephroth? Can Kefka? Can Kuja? Can Vaine? Can any other villain in the entire series besides Ultimecia herself absorb what has, is, and have ever exist and control it? I have no more to say...:rolleyes2

If Ultimecia can absorb existance, then Sephiroth can repeatedly destroy the solar system. :rolleyes2

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Originally Posted by TyphoonThaReapa

I understand the fact that everyone here has an opinion here. And arguing is indeed childish. BUT, what would a thread like this be without a good argument...:rolleyes2

Now then, I believe there's two people here that are obviously in denial. What do you guys mean give evidence? WE HAVE EVIDENCE!!! The scan said she transformed to her final form to absorb all of existence. SquareEnix knew what they were doing when they put that. And it doesn't matter whether she did it or not. What REALLY matter is the fact that she HAS THE POWER TO DO SO. Can Yu-Yevon absorb existence? Can Sephroth? Can Kefka? Can Kuja? Can Vaine? Can any other villain in the entire series besides Ultimecia herself absorb what has, is, and have ever exist and control it? I have no more to say...:rolleyes2

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No, no other can. However look at the glaring weakness of her ability. It reminds me of Sephiroths meteor. That being, there is a period of time there where they can be defeated, and in that time period if they are defeated, their power is thus defeated. The only hope of proving Ultimecia is strongest is to prove that she cannot be defeated in the period of time it takes before her power takes full effect, otherwise this "Ultimately powerful Power" is rather worthless.

What proof do we have that Ultimecia has the ability to absorb all of existence?

She may have tried to absorb all of existence - but in the end, she failed and achieved nothing apart from Time Compression. She never proved to us that she could absorb all of existence anyway. Even I could try to absorb all of existence - doesnt make me the most powerful villain. (Although I am)

Where is this scan anyway?

I'd like to point out she was, "absorbing existance," but hadn't done it yet. This is evident because the game managed to continue. If she absorbed all existance then guess what? The characters would go poof, gone, obviously they didn't. Now I don't want to hear, Plot Protection, because Final Fantasy gives so many reasons why they could win in most of their games.

(Examples)
IV: Power of the Crystal Weakens Zeromus
VI: Never pointed out, but you could assume it was through the power of the Crystals.
VII: This is one of the games where you just have to say it was just the character's strength, they could do in AC, they could do it in VII xp.
IX: They can't beat Kuja.

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Originally Posted by NeoCracker

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Originally Posted by TyphoonThaReapa

I understand the fact that everyone here has an opinion here. And arguing is indeed childish. BUT, what would a thread like this be without a good argument...:rolleyes2

Now then, I believe there's two people here that are obviously in denial. What do you guys mean give evidence? WE HAVE EVIDENCE!!! The scan said she transformed to her final form to absorb all of existence. SquareEnix knew what they were doing when they put that. And it doesn't matter whether she did it or not. What REALLY matter is the fact that she HAS THE POWER TO DO SO. Can Yu-Yevon absorb existence? Can Sephroth? Can Kefka? Can Kuja? Can Vaine? Can any other villain in the entire series besides Ultimecia herself absorb what has, is, and have ever exist and control it? I have no more to say...:rolleyes2

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No, no other can. However look at the glaring weakness of her ability. It reminds me of Sephiroths meteor. That being, there is a period of time there where they can be defeated, and in that time period if they are defeated, their power is thus defeated. The only hope of proving Ultimecia is strongest is to prove that she cannot be defeated in the period of time it takes before her power takes full effect, otherwise this "Ultimately powerful Power" is rather worthless.

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Ah, the voice of reasons speaks