Revolution...

I am hesitant to say that the quality of the series has gone downhill until I sample the gameplay of Final Fantasy XIII.

I think that Final Fantasy XI and Final Fantasy XII are far more different than Final Fantasy X before it, and that alienated a lot of people who were unable to play the former and found the latter too different than its predecessors. In reality, Final Fantasy XI and Final Fantasy XII were very similar in concept and Final Fantasy XII only took aspects of Final Fantasy XI to make it work offline; furthermore, they utilized the developer concept of Ivalice to flesh out the backstory of the game. Ivalice had only been used before that in Vagrant Story and the Final Fantasy Tactics series.

I think that the series would be faring far better were Final Fantasy XI called Final Fantasy Online and another title was made several years ago called Final Fantasy XI. I'm sure that they have the development notes somewhere about an unfinished game that was meant to be Final Fantasy XI before the company decided to move forward with the online title. Do you know what I mean?

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Originally Posted by Roogle

I think that the series would be faring far better were Final Fantasy XI called Final Fantasy Online and another title was made several years ago called Final Fantasy XI. I'm sure that they have the development notes somewhere about an unfinished game that was meant to be Final Fantasy XI before the company decided to move forward with the online title. Do you know what I mean?

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yeah i thought so, too. but watching the retrospective changed my mind a little. apparently it is a pretty good game with good muisc, game art, gameplay, with a main story and an actual ending. So I think it's ok to call it FFXI. Not to mention it had the real people (not sakaguchi, although he was exec produc) who made the real "old-school" FF's working on it, it's like a new interpretation of the old FF world. I still gotta play it though...

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

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Originally Posted by Roogle

I think that the series would be faring far better were Final Fantasy XI called Final Fantasy Online and another title was made several years ago called Final Fantasy XI. I'm sure that they have the development notes somewhere about an unfinished game that was meant to be Final Fantasy XI before the company decided to move forward with the online title. Do you know what I mean?

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yeah i thought so, too. but watching the retrospective changed my mind a little. apparently it is a pretty good game with good muisc, game art, gameplay, with a main story and an actual ending. So I think it's ok to call it FFXI. Not to mention it had the real people (not sakaguchi, although he was exec produc) who made the real "old-school" FF's working on it, it's like a new interpretation of the old FF world. I still gotta play it though...

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Well, yes, there are several storylines and ending scenes. I completed the original game, Rise of the Zilart, and Chains of Promathia and they have wonderful stories. I think that they are fine to stand in Final Fantasy, but it is certainly alienating to some fans because even if you read the story online, you don't get the entire experience — additionally, your character is a generic template for some mysterious, detached hero in a lot of the cases and doesn't directly influence the storyline in any way.

Having not played the game, I ain't gonna say anything about what's wrong with FFXIII. Having not grown up on FF in the US, I have no idea how people really felt about FF7 during its development... didn't people view it as a loss of direction or something? Yet time and again it appears very high up on "Best Game Ever" lists in various magazines and on various websites. Next FF after a multiple of 6. Anyone see a pattern here?

Give it time, people. It's not like you're anxiously waiting for FFT and getting a snowball fight.

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Originally Posted by Ouch!

It's because they share the common mythology involving the crystals, hence the name of the project: Fabula Nova Crystallis. They're also all coming out at relatively the same time. Given that the games are only called "Final Fantasy" so that they sell better, I don't really see how the number assigned to them is in any way relevant.

Really, what's the different between naming it FFXIII Versus or FFXIV? Both titles are just there for brand identity and making money. I don't see why the latter would be inherently better or more acceptable to people who have the opinion that companies using brand recognition to make money is evil.

Really, every company makes video games to make money. Anyone who thinks they make their games for the benefit of the fans is deluding himself. Any company that is more in touch with their fan base is merely that way because they view that approach as a good business decision.

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I don't see using brand recognition as underhanded, more like a sign of weakness really. Since the merger only one new successful franchise has emerged and that is Kingdom Hearts and I don't feel we need to discuss that further.

I'm more concerned that SE is relying on their brand names too much cause they are afraid no one will like them trying new things. The other thing I'm afraid is that SE will get too used to the idea that slapping the FF/DQ title onto things will constitute as "liscence to print money" and they will start to slack off on the quality of their products. As the fan base, its our duty to keep them on their toes and I feel we need to strike a better balance in voicing what we want. We can't be too lenient or SE may abuse and eventually tarnish their own title series but we can't be too harsh or SE will be too afraid to move away from the brand names and never get around to making new IPs.

My personal opinion of the XIII project is that its either a.) Nomura's contract says he has to make three more FF titles and this was the only way he could get them done simultaneously ;) or b.) Nomura, Kitase, and Nojima wanted to make this an ambitious project cause this will be the first official FF project that doesn't have connections to the old guard of FF designers and thus are trying to establish their own personal mark. Revisiting the crystal theme is not only a nice nod to the older games but it will a way for them to establish their own take on the classic theme.

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

I'm more concerned that SE is relying on their brand names too much cause they are afraid no one will like them trying new things. The other thing I'm afraid is that SE will get too used to the idea that slapping the FF/DQ title onto things will constitute as "liscence to print money" and they will start to slack off on the quality of their products.

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Indeed - that's basically what sucked the life out of Star Trek from roughly 2000 onward, with creativity and originality discarded in favour of low-quality, poorly-written recycling of tired, unimaginative ideas. It wasn't universally true of course, but true enough.
As soon as the creative minds start to slack off and rely on 'the name' to shift the product, instead of doing their best to tell a story that they can be proud of, the series embarks on a downhill slide that's extremely hard to recover from. A critic once used the term 'franchise on autopilot' to describe the more recent Bond films, and it's the kind of stigma you have to try pretty hard to shake. It's likely to be especially true for video games, which tend to lack credibility among mainstream critics and suffer the wrath of fickle and whimsical gamers.

I think I had a point somewhere.... Oh yeah. Basically, the FF creators need to stay on top of their games and not slack off, or else they'll have a tough time climbing back up to their earlier high standard, and a tough time maintaining fan loyalty too.

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

I don't see using brand recognition as underhanded, more like a sign of weakness really. Since the merger only one new successful franchise has emerged and that is Kingdom Hearts and I don't feel we need to discuss that further.

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Has Square Enix released any original titles in the last couple of years? I mean, one that is not connected to a past game or series of games?

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Originally Posted by Roogle

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

I don't see using brand recognition as underhanded, more like a sign of weakness really. Since the merger only one new successful franchise has emerged and that is Kingdom Hearts and I don't feel we need to discuss that further.

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Has Square Enix released any original titles in the last couple of years? I mean, one that is not connected to a past game or series of games?

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It's a Wonderful World.

And there's The Last Remnant Coming and that new Card based game, I believe...

Also, while it's true SE is making lots of FF games, isn't it so that their original games never sold as well as their main series? I'm not sure, but I've heard plenty of people say Vagrant Story for example, was awesome, but didn't sell that well.

And if brand recognition is a sign of weakness, what's Nintendo been doing all these years with Mario, Metroid and Zelda?

I have vaguely heard of that title, It's A Wonderful World, and I think that it is unfortunate that Square Enix does not spend as much money marketing the original title as they do for the brand titles. I can see why this would happen from a marketing standpoint, but I think that a heavily marketed original product has the potential to ease fans' discontentedness.

I wonder if any of those original titles have a chance of being released outside of Japan. I would lean towards a negative decision, at this point.

It's a Wonderful World wasn't that succesful in Japan I heard, but I'm not sure. I should look it up perhaps... But if it didn't sell well, well, it proves my point a bit. SE wants games to sell, but their original games as Vagrant Story and IAWW never reach the sales of FF, well, then what do you do as a good business-company?

I agree that while some spin-offs aren't that good, it's wrong also too say that just because it's a spinoff, SE didn't put any effort in it. Certainly not the case with XII RW for example. And let's not forget FFT, also a spinoff, but how many people love that game, huh? But okay, maybe FFT is in a league of its own, since it was made before SE's spinoff-madness...

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

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Originally Posted by Ouch!

It's because they share the common mythology involving the crystals, hence the name of the project: Fabula Nova Crystallis. They're also all coming out at relatively the same time. Given that the games are only called "Final Fantasy" so that they sell better, I don't really see how the number assigned to them is in any way relevant.

Really, what's the different between naming it FFXIII Versus or FFXIV? Both titles are just there for brand identity and making money. I don't see why the latter would be inherently better or more acceptable to people who have the opinion that companies using brand recognition to make money is evil.

Really, every company makes video games to make money. Anyone who thinks they make their games for the benefit of the fans is deluding himself. Any company that is more in touch with their fan base is merely that way because they view that approach as a good business decision.

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I don't see using brand recognition as underhanded, more like a sign of weakness really. Since the merger only one new successful franchise has emerged and that is Kingdom Hearts and I don't feel we need to discuss that further.

I'm more concerned that SE is relying on their brand names too much cause they are afraid no one will like them trying new things. The other thing I'm afraid is that SE will get too used to the idea that slapping the FF/DQ title onto things will constitute as "liscence to print money" and they will start to slack off on the quality of their products. As the fan base, its our duty to keep them on their toes and I feel we need to strike a better balance in voicing what we want. We can't be too lenient or SE may abuse and eventually tarnish their own title series but we can't be too harsh or SE will be too afraid to move away from the brand names and never get around to making new IPs.

My personal opinion of the XIII project is that its either a.) Nomura's contract says he has to make three more FF titles and this was the only way he could get them done simultaneously ;) or b.) Nomura, Kitase, and Nojima wanted to make this an ambitious project cause this will be the first official FF project that doesn't have connections to the old guard of FF designers and thus are trying to establish their own personal mark. Revisiting the crystal theme is not only a nice nod to the older games but it will a way for them to establish their own take on the classic theme.

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First of all, it's obvious that they haven't simply slacked off and used FF/DQ as a "license to print money". Both the newest incarnations of both, FFXII and DQVIII have been bold departures from what came before (DQ graphically and FF almost everything-but-graphically). It's redundant for me to bring up that they've been trying new things.

I do agree that I would like to see some new IP's, but of course, The Last Remnant is exactly that, and is aimed to be a hugely publicized new title, most notably because it's for both PS3 and 360.

And I don't see any credible reason to believe a) or b) of your point on the XIII games. Nomura and Kitase have been bringing a new flavor to the series since FFV, Amano is going to be onboard for XIII and its been stated in interviews that his title designs and artwork is playing a large role in the world of XIII. The old guard of FF designers ended with FFIV. If you actually look into who made those games, it's obvious that the Sakaguchi/Amano/Uematsu triumvirate is not what American fans make it out to be (although uematsu's music has undoubtedly been a major part of every game up to XI, even XII arguably).

What I really want to see more than anything is SE making mini-games truly optional, not it's optional but you have to do them to do this, this and that. I like the early ones better partly because they really weren't about mini-games. Then you have the opposite to that, FFX, where you practically need to do that stuff.

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

First of all, it's obvious that they haven't simply slacked off and used FF/DQ as a "license to print money". Both the newest incarnations of both, FFXII and DQVIII have been bold departures from what came before (DQ graphically and FF almost everything-but-graphically). It's redundant for me to bring up that they've been trying new things.

I do agree that I would like to see some new IP's, but of course, The Last Remnant is exactly that, and is aimed to be a hugely publicized new title, most notably because it's for both PS3 and 360.

And I don't see any credible reason to believe a) or b) of your point on the XIII games. Nomura and Kitase have been bringing a new flavor to the series since FFV, Amano is going to be onboard for XIII and its been stated in interviews that his title designs and artwork is playing a large role in the world of XIII. The old guard of FF designers ended with FFIV. If you actually look into who made those games, it's obvious that the Sakaguchi/Amano/Uematsu triumvirate is not what American fans make it out to be (although uematsu's music has undoubtedly been a major part of every game up to XI, even XII arguably).

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For now I agree that the quality is good, I'm just disturbed that when SE announces new titles almost 90% of them bear the FF title (the other 9% is DQ and 1% for everything else) . For now they are good but I'm mentioning the idea that eventually the quality may dwindle as time goes by which is why we can't give them slack ;) . Last Remnant is good to see but remember its the first original IP they've made since the merger (Drag-On Dragoon and Kingdom Hearts both being in production before the merger) That's 5 years without anything new or original. I understand the industry has hit hard times and most companies are trying to play it safe but I, like many gamers, just want to see something new.

As I stated before I do commend them for using their brand name intelligently though. FPS, RTS, and action platformers were never the companies strong points but they were able to take a chance with them by using the brand names. For that I commend them.

As for the DQVIII and XII being different, its because neither of them were worked on by their original teams. Matsuno is obvious but from what I've heard most of the original core DQ team left after VII which is why the franchise was handed over to the current developer. Its hard to argue DQ cause its very nature is to uphold tradition. DQ IX is making waves with its choice to move to handhelds but looking at the market, it was a smart move in my opinion. Of anything it just proves that the gaming community and marketplace don't take handhelds seriously...

My first comment on XIII was a joke, my second was a speculation that I thought would bring some interesting discussion, don't get your panties in a knot Bolivar. I think you take this Old/New Guard division too seriously. But I must state that Nomura's role in V and VI were very minor (monster designer in V and minor character designer in VI) So implying his input was detrimental to the older games is like saying this NASA ship will be good cause the lead designer of the shuttle had previous experience painting one of the older shuttles that happened to make it ;) . Nomura came into his own with VII and I do feel his input was good and fresh for its time. Of anything, I like him better as a monster designer and if he has to do characters, I find his heavy anime style (VII, KH series) to be his stronger talents.

Joking aside... What Kitase has done for the series is good though, in recent years I feel his desire to be a movie director has affected the series in a detrimental way (see point 2 of my things SE could change) Though I also blame Sakeguchi for this trend as well. Oddly enough, I would like to see Kitase return to a lead writing position again sense he wrote my favorite mainstream FF.

Nojima on the other hand got his start in VII and didn't become lead scenario writer till VIII. I don't like Nojima, and I do feel he's a terrible writer who insists on being the M. Night. Shamaylan (sp?) of video game writing. VIII was badly written, X was just unispiring, and how people could care about KH after what he did to KH2s plot is beyond me. If I was Daisuke Watanabe (scenario writer of KH1 and CoM), I would kick his ass for dropping the ball on that series. :mad: (still very bitter about KH2) Almost everything he touches never sets well with me so I can't see why I should be hopeful for XIII plotwise.

The point I was trying to make though, was why revisit the theme of the crystal for XIII? For series die hards, its a theme that is sorta thought as the heart of the series with five games using them as central to their theme. Think about it, its a new system, Nomura's last FF project for awhile, the first main FF title this team has worked on that doesn't have Sakeguchi's name attached to it... They are trying to do something special with XIII and I feel its them laying down a new mythos of FF, a more personal one. It was just a romantic thought and was not to be taken seriously or as a personal attack on the team.

DQVIII and XII both had developers from previous titles. I couldn't go into details for DQ, but Yuji Horii, Akira Toriyama, and Koichi Sugiyama have been the the core creative team since its inception, and they're all present for concept & scenario, art, and music, respectively.

As far as XII, Amano reprised his usual role, with Hiroyuki Ito and Hideo Minaba being lead developers among a varied mix of a team. The former has been with the series since I, and both have been key developers since V. As i previously said, the original "core" FF team you speak of stopped developing for the series after FFIV, returned for XI and the DS incarnations of III and IV.

Sakaguchi is a project coordinator. The only games he seems to have had an actual creative input on were VII and IX.

All that aside, i see what you're getting at with the new mythos of XIII. When you look at it another way - Kitase & co. have only made 1 out of the last 4 FF's. The first one for a new console is always a big event, and XIII is particularly historic in that the series has made more progress on the PS2 than any other system. This is a serious challenge for innovation, in addition to having incredibly powerful & new hardware at their fingertips, and FF being a massive brand name that encompasses all platforms. With all this weight on their back, and with the last 3 main installments being so varied that there is no clear direction for the series, I could see no better way than setting off XIII as Fabula Nova Crystalis - a series within itself, with a theme that is at the center of Final Fantasy. I think it's a pretty exciting time, i just wish we had a clue on what the progress is at right now.