Square-Enix's Remakes and Spins-off VS Final Fantasy Fandom.

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

Also, saying FFVII is overrated is like saying Star Wars is overrated, and you claiming IV is the best makes it doubly true, as it is (9 times out of 10) usually Star Trek fans who make that argument.

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Star Wars is overrated, though I enjoy it. But I hate Star Trek with a passion. :p

FFVII is also overrated. Basically every huge game is overrated. Basically anything wildly popular is overrated. This entire FF series is overrated. That's just how it is when something gets really popular. When you like something, you tend to ignore the flaws. When something gets really popular, most people ignore the flaws, and it becomes overrated. Thus is a fact of life.
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As I stated, I find the worst problem is when fans of the original game have to go out of their way to play the sequels/spin offs. Remakes are a different thing.

THE JACKEL

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

I guess there's another way to rephrase it:

If a video game company making products is that upsetting to you, you should probably not let it be apart of your life, much less spending time complaining about it on an internet message board.

And this: "S-E will make lousy spinoff games for no reason other than generating sales, because they know the obsessed fanboys/fangirls will buy them no matter how awful they are."

^I think you're overlooking the fact that alot of them actually are good games, such as Tactics Advance, Revenant Wings, IIIDS, IVDS, the advance remakes, now TA2, and Crisis Core has gotten a pretty nice consensus.

Also, saying FFVII is overrated is like saying Star Wars is overrated, and you claiming IV is the best makes it doubly true, as it is (9 times out of 10) usually Star Trek fans who make that argument.

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Well we are in a thread discussing the merits of the relationship between spin-offs, remakes, and sequel/prequels with the needs and wants of the fanbase. I feel its a perfect place to state the faults of such things and shouldn't I have a right to state my opinion? ;)

Spin-offs and remakes don't really bother me so much, then again TA is the only spin-off in the series and I've yet to plat RW and TA2 so I can't say much of the Ivalice Alliance. The remakes are well done and I've never really been against them (only the order they should be made ;)) as well as the ports being of good quality; but marketing past success is no reason to justify that sequels/prequels are therefore good.

Crisis Core is a good game but I wouldn't say its a great game. I take its reviews with a grain of salt cause the majority of reviews I've read always has the reviewer stating VII is his/her favorite. Star Wars game shouldn't be reviewed by Star Wars fans and neither should FFVII projects be reviewed by VII fans.:p Its not a terrible game but it has its fault, and I even feel it gets higher reviews than it should due to its assocciation with VII.

Its not a bad game overall but it has some major flaws that I noticed many people overlook. The AI is pretty bad; the difficulty of the main story is pathetic; battles force you into "invisible arenas" and when dealing with larger enemies or just large groups, this invisible arena forces you to take unnecessary hits cause your movement is badly hindered. The main game offers a variety of gameplay options but the Missions (the bulk of the gameplay) are generic dungeon crawlers using the same 8 maps for over 300 missions doing the same thing...

Personally I feel the main story is hindered by a lousy villain and a pointless over the top plot that makes unneccessary alterations to important events in the VII mythos. The story is also hindered by pacing issues and lack of important information that is never provided in-game. The best elements of CC's story are the events actually concerning the original canon, mainly, Zack's relationship with Aerith, Cloud, and Sephiroth.

My issue with the Compilation is that VII needs to be remade so it can fit the Compilation... Am I the only person who feels this is a little backwards? Shouldn't the Compilation be trying to fit with the original source material? Its this half-ass way of doing the project that makes me justify they shouldn't be done. Most of the FF's don't have enough source material to justify sequels (VII being one of them) and very few even have enough elements to make a decent prequel.

I can live with remakes and ports, but we can all do without the sequels and prequels, especially if SE can't be bothered to make them work.

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

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Originally Posted by Momiji

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

For me, I've lost some faith in SE due primarily to the Compilation of VII. It doesn't do anything but tarnish the reputation of the original. Its the physical incarnation of my reasoning of why you don't make sequels and prequels to an FF. Half of it is pretentious nonsense and the other half is a fanboy wet dream and neither do anything to expand upon the original game, you know, the good one. There were some good ideas which were twisted and destroyed by a series of bad ideas and horrible execution. I'm only happy cause I know I never supported it, and for all intents and purposes I'm just going to pretend it never happened.

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I agree with Wolf Kanno. S-E will make lousy spinoff games for no reason other than generating sales, because they know the obsessed fanboys/fangirls will buy them no matter how awful they are. To me, spinoffs go far beyond 'tarnishing the reputation' of their original titles, they actually make me less interested in the original titles as well.

As for FFVII, which I have made very clear that I feel that it is extremely overrated, a mediocre game at best, all the spinoffs have done nothing but make me hate the VII series in general. Don't get me wrong, I don't hate the original VII; I just think it's awfully overrated, and has generated an irritating fanbase who are starry-eyed over lousy characters and Sephiroth, who in my opinion is one of the worst villains in the Playstation era of Final Fantasy. Not only that, they are blind to the fact that the story was confusing and rather dull.

FFX-2 did the same thing for me. I enjoyed FFX a lot, and I had very high expectations for the sequel. What did I end up playing? A lousy spinoff that ruins the main story, soaked in half-assed fanservice. I have had no desire to replay FFX since. Think of it as 'dislike by association'.

I'm even skeptical of the FFIV sequel. FFIV is by far my favorite Final Fantasy overall, and something tells me the sequel will do nothing for the story.

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I guess there's another way to rephrase it:

If a video game company making products is that upsetting to you, you should probably not let it be apart of your life, much less spending time complaining about it on an internet message board.

And this: "S-E will make lousy spinoff games for no reason other than generating sales, because they know the obsessed fanboys/fangirls will buy them no matter how awful they are."

^I think you're overlooking the fact that alot of them actually are good games, such as Tactics Advance, Revenant Wings, IIIDS, IVDS, the advance remakes, now TA2, and Crisis Core has gotten a pretty nice consensus.

Also, saying FFVII is overrated is like saying Star Wars is overrated, and you claiming IV is the best makes it doubly true, as it is (9 times out of 10) usually Star Trek fans who make that argument.

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Complaining, you say? Don't even go there with me. I have as much of a right to an opinion as you do, and just because you disagree doesn't mean you can write my opinion off as a complaint. And I DON'T make it a part of my life, thank you very much, I'm just giving my two cents on the subject. Are you saying that I'm not allowed to do that?

And I said spinoffs, not remakes. I'm fine with remakes. It's the spinoffs that annoy me, especially the ones S-E do a less-than-desirable job on just to get a quick payoff on the fanboys/girls who would buy a used tissue if they found out it was used by their favorite character.

Furthermore, and I don't know if you haven't noticed this or not, Star Wars IS overrated. And I hate Star Trek by the way. I like FFIV much more because I found it to be a very good game, in my opinion.

Oh wait, sorry, I forgot. I'm not allowed to have an opinion if it conflicts with yours.

Woah, woah, woah, guys, guys! Before you get all unnecessarily cynical assuming that I put forth a royal decree that no one is allowed to have different opinions:

I was only looking out for your own mental well-being. And mine, considering all this unfounded (yes->) Complaining is a sore to read. Dissent is productive and valuable to development, whining not so much. I mean, you people do understand you're getting all negative over a company releasing video games, right?

And Kanno, I'm confused... Is CC a "good game" or a "generic dungeon crawler" with "pathetic" difficulty and a "pointless over the top plot"?

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Originally Posted by Jackal

Basically every huge game is overrated. Basically anything wildly popular is overrated. This entire FF series is overrated. That's just how it is when something gets really popular. When you like something, you tend to ignore the flaws. When something gets really popular, most people ignore the flaws, and it becomes overrated. Thus is a fact of life.

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To you and Momiji, I have to say, no, I do not believe Star Wars or FFVII to be overrated. They are simply creative works of contemporary art mediums that have stood the test of time and are enjoyed by a large group of people. If you honestly think the majority of the people who do so consider them to be utterly flawless as they cosplay at conventions, then you are out of your mind and out of touch with the people you are prejudging, and stereotyping.

And JACKAL, honestly no offense, but I'm going to take a wild guess and assume you don't have the psychology or sociology credentials to back up your hypothesis of conveniency. I mean, don't people like things in the first place because its flaws are outmeasured by its strengths? Just something to think about. Proclaimed "facts of life", like "rationality", is a relative term which has little meaning other than an abstract plea for substance.

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

Woah, woah, woah, guys, guys! Before you get all unnecessarily cynical assuming that I put forth a royal decree that no one is allowed to have different opinions:

I was only looking out for your own mental well-being. And mine, considering all this unfounded (yes->) Complaining is a sore to read. Dissent is productive and valuable to development, whining not so much. I mean, you people do understand you're getting all negative over a company releasing video games, right?

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One can say your optimism of this all being good is unfounded as well to us but thats the nature of arguments, no?;) You should know I'm an instigater(sp?) by now Bolivar. I enjoy conflict. It makes these forums more interesting.

But our complaint is how these video games are affecting the original source material. I have no issues about SE making good games, I have issues when they tarnish something I care about to make a quick buck. As I stated before, my issue with the Compilation (and its my complaint against SE, not the remakes or spin-offs) is that even though I can appreciate it from a buisness perspective, I can't tolerate it from a writing perspective cause its sloppy work and from a fan perspective cause it cheapens the original game. Its difficult to love a game when each time a new prequel or sequel is released you have to check to make sure how it alters the original. As I stated, had the Compilation followed the original game as canon instead of changing whatever they felt like to suit their own story purposes I probably wouldn't mind the Compilation. Its an artistic nightmare...

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And Kanno, I'm confused... Is CC a "good game" or a "generic dungeon crawler" with "pathetic" difficulty and a "pointless over the top plot"?

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I have a detailed explanantion in the Crisis Core thread. I will try to elaborate...

As I stated the Missions (which make up the bulk of gameplay and are seperate from the story) are nothing more than generic dungeon crawlers. The main storyline offers a varitey of gameplay options but is hindered by a total lack of difficulty. Combat is only made fun and interesting by the DMV, the combat system itself is simplistic and painfully hindered by a bad camera. Luckily the materia system is still strong but I feel it lacks real variety but this is purely due to system restrictions. In fact many issues I have with the gameplay side of things are due to the game being on PSP rather a console.

The story is good when it deals with cast members from the original game, with only Cissinei and Angeal being new characters that are well implemented. Lazard and Genesis are not... Lazard is a major player but most of his backstory is never stated in the main plot and Genesis is easily the worst villain ever concieved. He appears, quotes from LOVELESS so he makes the scene appear more poetic (in other words pretentious), whines about not being as good as Sephiroth and being betrayed by everyone, sends his minions to fight you, and escapes. (SPOILER)His origins make him out to be a Sephiroth knock-off...

Later he is written into one of the most important scenes in FFVII and is placed in a highly relevant role though he was never there to begin with and his role isn't important either but the author wants you to believe it... After Zack wakes up after 4 years confinement in Nibelheim, he desperatly escapes and though he is trying to make it back to Midgard and start anew; (SPOILER)instead decides to stop off and finish Genesis off in the last dungeon of which we are given the most pretentious bull:skull::skull::skull::skull: plot exploits since Xenosaga... . Storywise, CC could have been good, its ending is beautiful and there is some very strong character interactions; but Genesis easily cheapens the entire experience.

Half the game is really good and half the game is really bad, it comes down to personal choice which side has more merits but for me, the overall plot (which is what I play RPGs for) is just lousy and a few strong scenes are not enough to make me look the other way on the games bad points; especially when one of those bad points is having my favorite scene cheapened by having Genesis made a part of it. Its gameplay is a good way to kill time but I can't say its a very rewarding experience. Its a good portable experience which makes it a good game but its far from being great...

^okay, i guess that last sentence clarifies it a bit. And yes, of course i know you're an instigator, obviously your ambiguous remarks about CC are proof enough of that.

But onto your initial statement, the pessimism is unfounded because so many of the spinoffs are actually good games. A few bombs ("bomb" being an exaggeration at that) does not mean Square is molesting the integrity of their original products by making these products. As I said, i hardly meant argument is a bad thing, but if something is so upsetting to someone in real life (i'm hoping momiji is exaggerating) they probably shouldn't waste time complaining about it. Not only is it overly and unnecesarily emotional, but it's not good to spend time dwelling on things that upset you that much. Again, I'm hoping it doesnt.

I think your issues with it, go back to a very basic principle - if you don't like it, don't buy it. You're right about Angeal and Genesis - they're making them out to be major players in a story that they weren't initially in, and working them in ways which contradict the original. Does that mean SE is raping my childhood? No, I simply bought a DS for FFIII rather than a PSP for CC. At the same time, I know alot of people are going to enjoy CC, so why would I make such a fuss over them releasing a little fanservice?

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

^okay, i guess that last sentence clarifies it a bit. And yes, of course i know you're an instigator, obviously your ambiguous remarks about CC are proof enough of that.

But onto your initial statement, the pessimism is unfounded because so many of the spinoffs are actually good games. A few bombs ("bomb" being an exaggeration at that) does not mean Square is molesting the integrity of their original products by making these products. As I said, i hardly meant argument is a bad thing, but if something is so upsetting to someone in real life (i'm hoping momiji is exaggerating) they probably shouldn't waste time complaining about it. Not only is it overly and unnecesarily emotional, but it's not good to spend time dwelling on things that upset you that much. Again, I'm hoping it doesnt.

I think your issues with it, go back to a very basic principle - if you don't like it, don't buy it. You're right about Angeal and Genesis - they're making them out to be major players in a story that they weren't initially in, and working them in ways which contradict the original. Does that mean SE is raping my childhood? No, I simply bought a DS for FFIII rather than a PSP for CC. At the same time, I know alot of people are going to enjoy CC, so why would I make such a fuss over them releasing a little fanservice?

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Seriously, I don't lose any sleep over it or anything. I could care less about the Compilation cause VII isn't one of my top favorites. I've always been against sequels but as I stated before its cause very few FFs have the necessary story materials to warrant one, or at least make an exciting one that most of the fans could enjoy. I feel the Compilation proves my point in this regard. and all I worry about is the day when SE decides to give similiar treatment to the FF I do like (FFIV now being the first) I will choose to ignore it but it does make conversation difficult. As a writer I just have a difficult time letting go of the Compilations faults. VII was a good game and it deserved better IMO.

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

I was only looking out for your own mental well-being. And mine, considering all this unfounded (yes->) Complaining is a sore to read. Dissent is productive and valuable to development, whining not so much. I mean, you people do understand you're getting all negative over a company releasing video games, right?

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And you're telling me I'm wrong to say what I said because I didn't agree with what you said. What I said was not a complaint. All I said was, and I quote:

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Originally Posted by Me

As for FFVII, which I have made very clear that I feel that it is extremely overrated, a mediocre game at best, all the spinoffs have done nothing but make me hate the VII series in general. Don't get me wrong, I don't hate the original VII; I just think it's awfully overrated, and has generated an irritating fanbase who are starry-eyed over lousy characters and Sephiroth, who in my opinion is one of the worst villains in the Playstation era of Final Fantasy. Not only that, they are blind to the fact that the story was confusing and rather dull.

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None of that was a complaint. It was my opinion, whether you believe so or not.

Furthermore,

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

To you and Momiji, I have to say, no, I do not believe Star Wars or FFVII to be overrated. They are simply creative works of contemporary art mediums that have stood the test of time and are enjoyed by a large group of people. If you honestly think the majority of the people who do so consider them to be utterly flawless as they cosplay at conventions, then you are out of your mind and out of touch with the people you are prejudging, and stereotyping.

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Where the hell did I say anything about what the majority thinks and does with Star Wars? All I said was that I find it to be overrated, and not as amazing as some make it out to be, especially the most recent 3 movies. I stereotyped no one, and I think you're out of your mind for saying so. Your fatuity is astonishing. Also, leave Jackal alone; all he said was he thought it was overrated as well, though he enjoys it. Also, what he said about things becoming overrated holds a lot of truth. Look at FFVII and tell me that it is flawless. You can not, because the game is riddled with them.

Anyway, this thread is getting massively derailed. Can we please get back on topic?

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

Concerning FFIV-2, its not the gameplay side of it that bothers me, its the fact that making a sequel seems pointless. What is there left to say? The orignial ending gave a pretty decent idea what everyone would do afterwards. The orignal doesn't have enough elements storywise to warrant a sequel. I don't see the point of going back to this world outside of just seeing my favorite characters again but even then I was quite satisfied where things left off in the original.

There are no background elements to explore and the only way to generate a real plot for it will be to make some new bull:skull::skull::skull::skull: threat to existence. Overall it just seems it may end up being one of those cash in sequels that Hollywood likes to make.:rolleyes2

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I agree. I wonder if the developers of the game really had enough source material to go on with this. I know that Final Fantasy IV, like most games, had a lot of unused material after its production, but I doubt that it is enough to make a sequel.

I am fine with the sequels as long as the gameplay remains intact. Final Fantasy X-2 did not use the battle system from Final Fantasy X; Final Fantasy VII: Crisis Core and other titles in the compilation did not use the battle system from Final Fantasy VII. As a result, I tend to like these games less because they seem even less consistent with the original game.

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Originally Posted by Momiji

None of that was a complaint. It was my opinion, whether you believe so or not.

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Complain (verb) - 1. to express dissatisfaction, pain, uneasiness, censure, resentment, or grief; find fault.

:rolleyes2

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

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Originally Posted by Momiji

None of that was a complaint. It was my opinion, whether you believe so or not.

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Complain (verb) - 1. to express dissatisfaction, pain, uneasiness, censure, resentment, or grief; find fault.

:rolleyes2

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*sigh* Funny how you decided to point that out than discuss anything else I said.

And if that is the case, all opinions of disinterest and dislike are complaints. However, the context of the word 'complain' you are using is basically saying I'm whining, which I am not.