Printable View
This is the line that really bothers me. This "misunderstood business" just annoys me a bit. There are plenty of people that have it far worse than this nutcake and don't even up like murderers. Ultimately, this is just an excuse Sephiroth uses to indulge in his vengeful and wrathful nature, just like most cliche Japanese villains of this sort do. I think they should have given him much better motivation.Quote:
Originally Posted by sir helix
Oh please. There are tons of evil-clowns in fiction, and you know it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalin
Kefka is a one-dimensional cliche villain.
Then let's not give credit to Kefka for destroying the world, because the Statues did it for him. He just pushed them.Quote:
Let's address this. First off, the destruction caused by the weapons was caused by the weapons, not Sephiroth. They were released by his doing yes, but let's not branch credit here.
Let's not give credit to Kuja for killing a lot of people, because the Black Mages did it for him.
Give me a break.
After Meteor, the world lost it's main source of energy(Mako), it's main government(Shinra), and was being infected by an uncurable disease.Quote:
As for Meteor destroying Midgar, evidently a huge portion of the population of Midgar ends up surviving anyways [as shown in the FF AC movie, who proceed to build the city of Edge outside of Midgar's ruins], and for the most part this destruction doesn't really do a whole lot to change the face of the world or anything, unlike the Mist-infected world of FF IX or the World of Ruin brought about in FF VI by Kefka's recklessness with the three statues of the Warring Triad, as well as fooling around with his tower. One crushed city does not a destroyed-world make. Even the emperor of Final Fantasy II [arguably] wrought a heavy amount of destruction, despite the fact that you don't really get any attachment to all of the cities that are wiped out. Besides, in the end, Meteor ends up getting countered anyways, even though there are some casualties attached [as you show in your current signature].
Yes, Meteor DID "a whole lot to change the face of the world". You can read "On the Way to a Smile: Case of Barret" if you don't believe me.
ACC is canon to FFVII, and I will use it.Quote:
As for Geostigma, you're going off-track from the game FF VII itself [which is what the discussion is about] and are trying to bring other things in here. On the issue of Geostigma, it's a failed world poison that I found a bit too disney-ish because it's easily cured by the released outflow of water that's been exposed to lifestream [which is actually supposedly mentally hazardous as explained in the first game] that cures Cloud's Geostigma, along with everyone else's.
To a "failed"(lol) world poison, it did a pretty good job. And it was only cured after Sephiroth's will was gone.
Ah, and I found FFIX pretty disney-ish.
Maybe because you don't want to change your mind about it.Quote:
I have, but it didn't really change my mind on it to be honest. Those three extensions/manifestations-of-Sephiroth/whatever-you-wanna-call-it just bugged the hell out of me. They were annoying and had ridiculous personalities. The Geostigma concept was silly, especially seeing how easily it was cured [the way they slid that in was also a face-palmer, being that it was so simple that it could've been done at any time].
Wow, you really didn't understand the movie's plot. Geostigma couldn't be completely cured until Sephiroth's will was gone. This is why Cloud had to beat him first.
Well, you have the right to dislike a character for whataver reason.Quote:
As for respecting Sephiroth, I explained my arguments and reasons stated above. And to that, I guess I'll have to add that even by the time FF VII had come out, I had already seen too many "Sephiroth"s. That general appearance combined with that personality archetype in general was [and still is, though to a slightly lesser extent] very prevalent in anime.
But disliking him because of his looks, is the same as liking him because of his looks. It's shallow.
I could be wrong, but I have the impression your problem is not with the character itself, but with his popularity and fanbase.Quote:
I'm not trying to be rude either, but I dislike Sephiroth for several reasons which I've already stated. It may sound redundant but, these reasons are there for a reason. Trust me, if I didn't have any issues with Sephiroth, I wouldn't dislike his character so much. I was a fan of Final Fantasies, RPG's in general, and anime [as well as the anime culture in Japan] long before FF VII came out. Not all, but a good portion of the people that I talk to who I feel overly-praise FF VII admit that FF VII was the first RPG they played [or at least one of their first]. A good amount of them say things along the lines of older FF games being "crappy" because they're too primitive/weren't designed for a powerful enough console or had inferior graphics or whatever, which drives me up the wall due to its hideous close-mindedness. However, I hope you don't mistake me for someone that hates FF VII. As I've stated in several topics, I really liked this game a lot despite all of my complaints about it, and it's nowhere near my bottom list.
Well, why do you sound so upset? Let's not get too snappy here. Remember that your speech here [or text in this case] is for all to see.
There are some yes, but in comparison to a character like Sephiroth, far less. The only other character of the sort that really comes to mind is the Joker from Batman.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Crystal
There's a difference. His manipulation and use of the statues was direct action with direct intent, whereas the world's weapons getting loose was the consequence of a sequence of events. And don't forget General Leo, the people of Doma, some of the kindgom of Figaro, betrayal of Emperor Gestahl, the Thamasa, the "World of Ruin" that he created, towns/people that he killed with his "Light of Judgment" from the tower he constructed, etc. Also, a huge RPG fanbase voted Kefka as one of the "top ten villains of all time" which was demonstrated on Filter [G4 channel].Quote:
Originally Posted by The Crystal
What about his attack on Alexandria or killing Queen Brahne? Or what about his destuction of the entire planet Terra? Or how about the Mist crisis he caused for Gaia? Those deserve credit as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Crystal
At this point I'm going to say you're getting off-track. If I recall, Mako was the source of energy for the technology in Midgar, whereas every other establishment in the game was a moderate one. As for the bit about Geostigma, Cloud was cured of it prior to Sephiroth being defeated. I admit that I haven't read all of this extra stuff that they decided to add onto FF VII several years after it came out, but I think this is severely off-track. Our discussion is about Sephiroth, not the add-ons to FF VII. Since this discussion pertains to Sephiroth, I'd prefer if we keep the discussion in-line here.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Crystal
Yeah it's canon, but I don't think it's really helping the cause right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Crystal
So did I, but to an extent this "lighter" feel of the game was their intent, and I actually like that about it. Given the direction and tone they clearly had in mind for FF VII [which to me seemed to be a lot more serious], I thought the bit about the disease being magically cured with lifestream-infused rain was kinda silly. Also, Wasn't Cloud's Geostigma cured before Sephiroth's will was gone anyways?Quote:
Originally Posted by The Crystal
Well, I'm not sure what to say to this. Of course I don't want to change my mind about it. You are right. But that's the point of this discussion, isn't it? The reason why I'm not changing my mind on this is because I don't feel that they've presented anything further to give me any reason to. For a time being I never really had much interest in all of the added-on FF VII "nonsense" [as some put it, though by using a harsher word], but I figured it couldn't really be bad at all. After briefly discussing some of it with Wolf Kanno, I decided to at least explore by trying some of it out and doing some research. But after doing so, I can't really say I disagree with Wolf Kanno on the matter of at least several of these expansions [or whatever one would call them], because while I end up enjoying the added content and the extra history, I feel a little disappointed with how it was executed and presented.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Crystal
Let's try not to be obsessive here. My understanding of this was different due to the above-statements I made on Cloud's Geostigma being cured prior to Sephiroth being defeated. Also, didn't the children have to step into the water that was in the church before it was cured anyways? I'm only going by off of what's displayed. Admittedly, I only saw the movie once but I remember something like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Crystal
Haha, yeah I know. Trust me, I'm aware. But as a rather picky anime artist, I tend to be really critical/nit-picky about character designs, and ones that I feel don't look so great or are overly done [cliche] tend to bother me a lot. Besides, you know this isn't my only reason for disliking Sephiroth. Aren't these last few forum posts a discussion about my reasoning for my dislikes about his overall character [what I felt was lack of characterization, poor motive, etc.]? Also, despite my harsh judgment on character designs, I'll end up liking the character anyways even if he's not a perfect-looking sexy bishounen. For example, I really detested Kefka's and Kuja's character designs for reasons stated in their respective forum categories here on EoFF. However, I rather much liked them anyways despite that. Another example is how I actually find Tidus to be kinda cute, but I just really dislike his character so much that looks don't really redeem him.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Crystal
Well, yes and no. Ultimately, my problem with him lies with his character, of that there is no doubt. I do have problems with Sephiroth fans that [I feel] overly praise him, which is basically his popularity and fanbase as you said, of course. But you have to understand that the only reason why I have an issue with it, is because I didn't like him in the first place. If I thought he was a really cool and awesome villain, I'd like him too. Trust me, I get just as annoyed with people that think DBZ And Naruto are "top notch animes", because that alone can really drive me up the wall. But this just comes down to tastes and preferences, so don't be so offended if someone voices an opinion and gives examples and explanation for it. I'm well-aware that my opinions aren't exactly popular or agreeable, so you don't have to get ready to Mount St. Helens here. Besides, I think it's bad for public imagery.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Crystal
I had a similar problem with Omecle on the "GBA vs. DS version" in the FF IV forums. S/he had felt offended that I didn't speak very well of the fact that Square-Enix decided to make 3D chibi models for the characters in the game [I felt that chibi polygons created too much of an "unserious" look that just sort of irked me]. I also posted a youtube video showing a good example of what I meant, and they blew up. I'm pretty opinionated and might speak too firmly, but in the end it's just game discussion really. Despite how opinionated I am, I actually like and enjoy everyone here that I talk with, even the people I end up disagreeing with most often [like Vermachtnis and black orb for example] because they're pretty cool people. The only thing I've gotten worked up over on these forums is the "Smoking Bans" topic in the EoEO section.
now thats what i call an argument.
gotten a lil bit off topic but right on.
Well, I like the forums for discussion. And hey, at least it's something to do besides talking about candy and flowers all day. If I'm bored then I'll alt+tab to here and spend a few minutes writing up a post on something. Being argumentative/opinionated is part of my nature I guess, which probably comes from me growing up in a family of lawyers and my taking an interest in Forensics when I was in high school. I like discussion that's at least semi-intellectual though, because I think a lot comes off it and gets put out there for others. Some people might not like it but I think it's good for healthy discussion. I've also gotten to meet a lot of nice/smart people here too because of it.
As for going off-topic, when you're arguing it tends to happen. It's actually pretty hard not to branch off. In fact in most cases, it's a strategic part of the argument. Still, when you argue with someone I think you actually end up learning a lot about them.
Jenova was the true villian. Sephiroth was just a tool *jumps off cliff* Still love him though :love:
Now that's another interesting way to see it. If you think about it, Jenova is actually a somewhat scary concept. It doesn't posses true reasoning or have any real goals outside of its instincts. It's almost like a kind of zombie. It's a pure slave to its instincts as a "living virus" and can only think of using its mimic abilities to get close to others so it can spread its disease.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoTifa
I'm only assuming that once it finishes its task of spreading its virus and killing everything on the planet, it would attempt to hop planets again?
wow its been awhile since i have read some of the posts on hear we have go quite the dabate going on awesome awesome im mostly on the side of khilian tho alot of our veiw are the same
absolutely wrong though, NeoTifa, it states in the Ultimania that it was Sephiroth in control of JENOVA as opposed to the other way around... so JENOVA was the tool and Sephiroth the one using her...
Well I think she knows that. I don't think she literally meant that Sephiroth was a direct tool to Jenova when she said that, as we basically already covered that. I just assumed that she meant that Sephiroth was originally just a tool for Hojo and Shin-Ra, and that Jenova's creepy/scary-factor basically exceeds everyone else's in that game [which I pretty much agree with]. Honestly, Jenova is the creepiest entity in FF VII. I never really got any similar sense from Sephiroth.
Jenova is creepy in general. Case closed.
[/thread]
Was Jenova ever explicitly stated to be conscious during FFVII?
It always seemed strange to me that Sephiroth could be the one controlling her, but if she was actually never self-aware for the events of FFVII it all falls in to place perfectly.
I've never actually read the Ultimania, I suppose I should add that to my to do list.
Since this game's translation [at least as far as the Playstation version goes] was extremely shoddy, then I would consider reading the Ultimania a requirement to understanding the game. Honestly, so much is not explained, worded improperly, or just plain left out that I don't see how it's really possible for anyone to fully understand the game without reading the Ultimania.
You can see JENOVA as the true evil cause JENOVA was the beginning of all evil in Final Fantasy.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoTifa
But you can see ShinRa as the true evil as well, cause...well, I think there is no need to explain anymore.
However, Sephiroth is the one who controls the "Calamity from the Sky", JENOVA. Both are extremely intelligent creatures. Sephiroth doesn't think his "mother" JENOVA is dangerous for himself. But JENOVA acts instinctive like an animal. She would control him. But she cannot. You can see it that way (to explain it easier): Sephiroth just read Doctor Gast's documents (and he didn't knew that part of the books were false, cause Gast has not known that he discovered only JENOVA's shapeshifted fake body while he wrote this books), Sephiroth sure knew that JENOVA was an alien. Correct, not in the original Final Fantasy VII. But in Crisis Core we all see, that Genesis is the one who has told him. But then Sephiroth reads Gast's books (in my opinion the most important scene of the Nibelheim incident, so it is sad that it is only a memorial scene in the D.M.W.). Gast was like an idol for Sephiroth, so he just believed in what he's read in his books and so Sephiroth thought JENOVA was an ancient and no alien life form. And he thought the ancients betrayed other ancients, instead of living a nomadic life they started to live like a normal human being. And of course a Cetra is nothing than a human being, but with some special abilites and they are really intelligent - but they are nomads. And so Sephiroth thought the traitors became human and the Cetra's time was over. He didn't know that almost all Cetra were killed by the virus of the JENOVA cells and that the rest of them then began to live like human. And of course that's why they lost their abilities and finally became just human (so all human are the Cetra's descendants, they just have no abilities, but I think you all know that). Only a few people left, so Iphalna, the last true Cetra got a baby, a half-Cetra whose abilities wasn't as powerful as hers, but that's not important. Anyway, Sephiroth thought he had to take revenge because of his mother who was a Cetra (of course she wasn't). So he asked her "mother, what should I do?" and that's no problem, I mean she is Sephiroth "mother", so why shouldn't he talk to her? And JENOVA just whispered "they are evil. let them suffer. kill them." And Sephiroth did. But then his will became stronger and stronger. After fallen into the lifestream, after his body has vanished and he was resisting the flow of life itself because of his powerful will, he travelled trough this lifestream and he absorbed the ancient's knowledge in it. He became the master of the JENOVA cells and he just dominated her and her abilities. Then, he used the power of regeneration to regenerate himself at the northern crater. And I think the rest is clear.
But there is one thing in the Ultimania which is still misunderstandable. The man with the tatoo "1" is in the clone list/tatoo list (like Nanaki as well, but we all know that he is no clone of course), but it is not mentioned that he is no clone. This man is Sephiroth himself. The "number one of the JENOVA project: S". You can also know that because of three important lines in Final Fantasy VII itself. But I think, Square just thought that it is obvious, so they hadn't noticed anymore.
EDIT: Oh, and people who really think Sephiroth cannot control JENOVA, the lifestream (because he IS the most powerful being in Final Fantasy VII and the creature with the strongest will) or don't believe the Ultimania Omega shouldn't play Final Fantasy. They will never accept the truth. Almost everything other people wrote here in this thread is wrong.
well what did seph do that was evil? and references to him during the game?
ok initially he comes across as just a powerful member of soilder.
we later find out he is evil and burned a town down to the ground which happens to be tifas and clouds hometown.
we also later find out he is manipulating cloud making him even attack his own friends and nearly kill aeris.
he then does pretty much the ultimate evil and kills aeris whilst her back is turned. This to me was very bad I am to this day not over the fact aeris dies in the game.
At this point the party not is after him to stop him casting metoer (which by the way will only kill everyone on the planet) but to also take revenge for aeris, this point is made in the game numerous times.
Even rufus realises seph is 'too' evil, and the turks also promise to take seph out if they beat your party in their final battle.
of course hojo is evil as well as we find out from some flashbacks and what he does during the game.
there is numerous flashbacks showing seph's character background, of course some are optional like vincent's wife.