Ramza

That is one of the brilliant things about sprite/primitive 3d games, the amount that is left to be interpreted by the player. If the game was in HD they would probably not have left any no room for interpretation on the characters action. And since we both chose to see something different, one of us wouldn't have liked the game as much as we did.

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But I do remember High Priest Funeral being painted as a well-intentioned old man who simply got manipulated by the Lucavi.

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I don't really think there was enough said about Funeral to know what his intentions were. I alway thought of him as just as corrupt and power hungry as any of the other nobles. I guess it depends how much sympathy you draw for him after he is killed by Vorman. I can understand how he could be viewed as sympathetic, old men who have just been betrayed and murdered are usually seen as fairly harmless. I personally saw another contender for the throne who got what he had coming.
I loved the scene where Ramza finds him, and after he gets what information he can out of him he just turns and walks out of the room, without taking a second to contemplate. By that point in the game he has lost any possible sympathy he could have for Funeral, and unceremoniously walks out on his corpse.
Like I said, I don't think we have very much to judge the man on. I'm basically going by Ramza's reaction to his death. Ramza usually takes the time after every battle with deserters and thieves to reflect on the loss of life, for Funeral there is nothing.

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, but I do not believe the game wanted him to come off as any kind of hero or well-intentioned character. Mostly because, like I said, every major villain except the Lucavi and Temple Knights also had this same goal in mind.

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I generally like stories where the a) the hero wins by smashing the bad guys face in with super powers(DBZ style), or b) the hero wins by out thinking the antagonistic force (Asimov style). So a story where the hero outplays all the antagonists at their own game is something that appeals to me. Going in with this perspective I would naturally fill in the blanks with interpretations that lead to a hero outsmarting the villains at their own game.

Or another way to look at it. Ramza was special because he was the main character. He was the only on who could take on a Lucavi and win. Likewise Delita was also special, a flip side to Ramza so to speak. Just like Ramza was the only one able to rise above and defeat the evil of the Lucavi, Delita was the only one able to rise above and restore order to Ivalice.

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Maybe I totally misunderstood the ending of the game but I thought the only reason Delita kills Ovelia is because she stabs him. Delita comes to actually love Ovelia in the end but she jumps to conclusions and thinks that he's continuing to manipulate her. Who really got the smurfed up ending? I definitely say Delita. Someone tell me if that's not accurate; it's been a while since I played the game.

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Also consider (presumably) that one of the main reasons Ovelia decided to kill Delita was that he was ruthless enough to kill Olan and Bulf.... dancer girl...

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Originally Posted by VeloZer0

That is one of the brilliant things about sprite/primitive 3d games, the amount that is left to be interpreted by the player. If the game was in HD they would probably not have left any no room for interpretation on the characters action. And since we both chose to see something different, one of us wouldn't have liked the game as much as we did.

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I think it would be an interesting thought to have a game that left an ending purposely open to contemplate what really just happened. I don't think that was the case for this game, though. If I remember correctly, she runs up to him and it makes the "stabbing into flesh" sound, then he hunkers over wounded and drops the flowers. She turns, he draws his sword, kills her, then crawls off and dies. Romeo and Juliet on vengeful steroids.

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Originally Posted by VeloZer0

Or another way to look at it. Ramza was special because he was the main character. He was the only on who could take on a Lucavi and win. Likewise Delita was also special, a flip side to Ramza so to speak. Just like Ramza was the only one able to rise above and defeat the evil of the Lucavi, Delita was the only one able to rise above and restore order to Ivalice.

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When put that way, I think Delita was again the better of the two. Delita was just as "strong" as Ramza; he just chose to exact revenge and cleanse the system. A proper cleanse wouldn't be very thorough if he allowed Lucavi to return and he used Ramza to prevent that. He covered all the angles... except for telling Ovelia the truth quickly enough.

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Originally Posted by VeloZer0

Also consider (presumably) that one of the main reasons Ovelia decided to kill Delita was that he was ruthless enough to kill Olan and Bulf.... dancer girl...

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Originally Posted by Final Fantasy Tactics Wikipedia Page

Olan Durai, a witness who had many encounters with Ramza (and is unsure as to whether his glimpse of a living and well Ramza and Alma after the game's final battle is a hallucination or not), attempts to reveal the Church's evil plot with the "Durai Report." However, his papers are confiscated and he is burned at the stake for heresy.

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I don't remember the order of the events at the end of the game; Olan dying is the last of the "story" and then the Delita/Ovelia scene is after the credits, right? If that's the case, I guess Delita would have something to do with his death but I never put that together until you brought it up.

Is her name Balmafula? I searched but couldn't find sure details. I don't remember Delita killing her. Can you refresh my memory?

Balmafula was an agent of the Church who was supposed to Kill Delita if he betrayed the church, but when she tried to act on the orders she was unable to do it, so Delita faked her death and she escaped. She also appears in the ending alongside Olan.

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Originally Posted by oddler

Maybe I totally misunderstood the ending of the game but I thought the only reason Delita kills Ovelia is because she stabs him. Delita comes to actually love Ovelia in the end but she jumps to conclusions and thinks that he's continuing to manipulate her. Who really got the smurfed up ending? I definitely say Delita. Someone tell me if that's not accurate; it's been a while since I played the game.

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Delita was manipulating her. She was the means to his ascension to power. He cared nothing for her personally. As soon as she outlives her usefullness and becomes a possible threat to him, he kills her with no remorse.

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Delita was manipulating her. She was the means to his ascension to power. He cared nothing for her personally. As soon as she outlives her usefullness and becomes a possible threat to him, he kills her with no remorse.

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To be fair, she attacked him. And he did look quite remorseful afterwards, you don't look to the sky and muse about what your life could have been right after you get everything you have been dreaming of.

If he really wanted to kill everyone who was a threat to him he would have killed Olan and Balmafula. He had nothing to gain by leaving them alive, they were only a potential liability.

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Originally Posted by Skyblade

Delita was manipulating her. She was the means to his ascension to power. He cared nothing for her personally. As soon as she outlives her usefullness and becomes a possible threat to him, he kills her with no remorse.

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Except for Delita manipulating her, I disagree with you completely. The means to his ascension was his own doing, not hers. I think the fact that she wasn't a real princess furthers the idea that he gains feelings for her. She becomes royalty from common birth just as Delita does. He makes the mistake of letting her live and not telling her the truth which ends with her killing him.

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Originally Posted by VeloZer0

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Delita was manipulating her. She was the means to his ascension to power. He cared nothing for her personally. As soon as she outlives her usefullness and becomes a possible threat to him, he kills her with no remorse.

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To be fair, she attacked him. And he did look quite remorseful afterwards, you don't look to the sky and muse about what your life could have been right after you get everything you have been dreaming of.

If he really wanted to kill everyone who was a threat to him he would have killed Olan and Balmafula. He had nothing to gain by leaving them alive, they were only a potential liability.

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Watch the scene. He kills her without batting an eye, then he goes off to think about himself. Does he hold her as her life slips away? Does he weep? Does he register any shock about his "love" trying to kill him? Does he have any feelings for her during the whole thing? No. All he does is look away and start thinking about himself. That's all he's thought about the entire game. The guy is one of the most narcissitic individuals Square has ever written. He would kill off anyone, family, friends, loved ones, innocents, all to promote his own power. He never shows remorse for any of his actions. He has no feelings for ANYONE but his sister. He knifes his own wife, and as she's laying there breathing her last, he just looks away and muses about the course of his own life. Himself, again.

Sorry, but I hate Delita, and that scene most of all. No matter how awesome the rest of the plot is (and it is awesome, and makes up for the broken combat), this scene killed the game for me. Knowing that every time I play through it that this scene is waiting as a "Congratulations, now here's your reward- *Stab*"... Bleh. FFT is dead to me because of Delita and this scene.

And how does any of this jive with going to the effort of faking Olan and Balmafula's deaths? Not only did he not kill them because they were in his way, he went to extra effort to remove them from his way without killing them.

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Does he register any shock about his "love" trying to kill him?

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The fact that he stands motionless and looks off into the sky kind of signifies shock to me. If he really didn't care he would have just stepped over her body and walked off, as you see him do on occasions he kills people he doesn't care about.

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He never shows remorse for any of his actions.

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Neither would I if I were him. With the exception of Ovelia all the people he killed were hardly undeserving.

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(and that along with the terribly broken gameplay pretty much ended my interest in the game).

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As much as I want to rise to your bait, that isn't the place of this thread.

Come to think of it, maybe a mod should chop the last page or so of posts from this thread into a new one entitled "Delita".

Yeah, sorry, that rant got a bit personal there. I didn't mean to drag Delita into the thread, but that's all I can get when I see Ramza. Ramza himself is merely another conduit for Delita's ascension. He's not a hero, and he's the only primary character from an FF game that I have never had any connection with. He lets the big villain (and Delita will always be the primary villain of the story to me) live to be the only character in the game who winds up in a better position than the one they entered with. All the great characters in this game and the only one with a happy ending is the jerk I hate, and Ramza has plenty of opportunities to end this and he doesn't.

Ramza is an awesome character, a model of sacrifice and friendship. He is truly a noble in both bloodline and character. He's essentially a lawful good paladin.

Delita is less hateful than say Algus (who seems to be a jerk on principle) or Vormav (who is evil incarnate), but he fell from grace further than any character. At the end he seems the epitome of the man who gains the world but loses his soul.

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

The Death Corp. use terrorism in the name of the poor - the only real result is an excuse for the nobles to use them to further a war.

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I don't see the Death Corps as bad, certainly some members of the group try to go for the easy way out and make them out to be a group of thugs but each time I play through Tactics, I feel its apparent that Ramza is actually being the villain in the first chapter, as he kills on orders a group of people that he himself can relate to.

I don't feel Wiegraf was evil, a hopeless idealist yes, but hardly evil. I feel the Death Corps were actually quite noble in their endeavors except for the guys who kept taking hostages, and this was rather striking as it just goes to show how a few bad eggs can make something people would have supported turn into something people hate. Of anything, this almost throws us into the debate on the concept of terrorism and whether its a good tool for political change in an oppressive regime. The Death Corps was wiped out and became terrorist but had they succeeded they would have been the heroic rebellion. History often paints the name of people long after the ambiguity of their actions have passed.

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Each of the noble factions believe they are less corrupt/obtuse than the other faction and believe that they can bring better peace to Ivalice.

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The beauty of all this is how accurate this really does fall into real life with the conflicts among the nobles and their total disregard for the peasants. I feel Larg was definetly out for power, and Goltana initially went to war cause he did believe he was protecting Ivalice from the power hungry Larg but it seems easy to realize he wanted the throne as well and just used his reasoning to justify his war.

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The only characters who will not take underhanded tactics in order to further peace are Ramza's faction. In many cases, some of the schemes they foil would in fact lead to a better world, but because someone will get hurt along the way, Ramza stops it. At certain times I think he specifically says he will not allow any injustice even if it does lead to a utilitarian net gain.

I think I've said this before, but that's what the Ivalice games are all about - heroes who rise above the moral ambiguity which is suffocating their culture/setting, in order to put down a supernatural threat.

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See in terms of Ramza and Delita, I feel what we really have here is a conflict between the two moral thoughts of virtue (Ramza) and Utilitarianism (Delita).

I think where I disagree with the game is the end results of both characters. Ramza has peace of mind and is able to save his sister and Ivalice but his efforts are partly thankless and in the end his actions only helped further Delita's goals. He saved Ivalice from a cataclysmic event but I don't think we could go so far to say he truly saved Ivalice.

Delita on the other hand does save Ivalice from its more major issue of political turmoil and completely upsets the old order. His actions are at best deplorable and in the end, he ends up becoming the very thing he fought to remove from Ivalice (which in itself is more of a social commentary on politics). Delita saves Ivalice and though he get some materialistic gain, his hands are stained and he lost the only people he ever cared about.

I feel you downplay Delita's success, he may have lost the battle for his soul but it can't really be argued that his actions led to some good results for Ivalice. Ramza saved Ivalice from a demon invasion but his actions didn't stop the Lion War nor resolved the starting issue of his journey. A lot of major players got axed but it was Delita who filled in the political vacuum and saved Ivalice from further civil war or possible even an invasion from a foreign power.

They are both heroes in some way and both made terrible sacrifices at their own expense for the better good of Ivalice.

As for Delita not caring about Ovelia, I feel the PSP version pretty much shows that Delita really did care about her. Of anything, its pretty tragic that his own actions made one of the people he cared about turn on him in fear. I feel the story makes a bit of a commentary showing the hardships of following a personal virtuous life like Ramza or the repercussions of actually trying to save the people for the better good and the problems when one employs "the end justifies the means".

I thought this thread was about Ramza? I like that his death is the main losing condition.

Ramza is indeed one of the best lead characters of a FF game. It's a shame he doesn't get very far in the character tournaments.

It's great to watch him go from a naive squire with a strong sense of justice to the only person who understands what's really going on and the only one who can stop it. His quest for the truth is very well done. I love this story.