On towns and NPCs (Spoilers Within)

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Originally Posted by Mo-Nercy

it's still a barely noticeable omission. I didn't really get that same sense of isolation that Kanno got, but maybe that's because I was super-immersed with the graphics (my PS3 is quite new to me) and that's how I got that element of emotional attachment with Cocoon.

In terms of it deviating from the FF-formula of the old days, it's barely feels like an FF title any more, but I was still able to enjoy the game on it's own terms.

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also, agreed. while i agree that graphics do not make a game, i will say this much: never have i ever stopped everything i was doing in a game, put my finger on the camera stick and simply looked at my surroundings. to me, that is something special that drew me into my playing experience, and will stay with me for a very long time and will not be soon forgotten. because something that ive always expected from final fantasy is a gorgeous and revolutionary visual experience - oh no! i said that the main thing i expect is great graphics! while this is def not the only reason i enjoy this game, it's most certainly a great part of it. and as far as it feeling like FF, there are only a few things i had qualms with, and none of them were ever even mentioned in these forums...so hey, whatev. these are things like a lack of upgrades in potions, and that's it.

Graphics are important. Classic or not, Final Fantasy 7 does, and always will look pretty retarded.

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Originally Posted by zombiedude55

Graphics are important. Classic or not, Final Fantasy 7 does, and always will look pretty retarded.

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That is also incorrect as fan mods are improving the game and the "square arms" and poor models are mostly a thing of the past. Graphics can be updated and games stand or fall based on their substance, this is a fact.

Mario 3 is still brilliant to play, so is sonic 2, so is FF6-10. FF7 is still considered by many to be the greatest game, and FF6 to others. 12 and 13 can only dream of that kind of accolade no matter how good their graphics.

Graphics are the least important thing. I would rather play Breath of Fire 3 (a great game) 100 times than touch XIII. Pong is still fun to play and so is Galaga. I am not saying Graphics should deliberately be thrown away for the sake of it, I am saying getting a balance is most important and XIII utterly fails with it.

I really don't understand why Graphics are held in such high status for a game.

You can change substance as well, so what a stupid thing to say. :confused:

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

I am not saying Graphics should deliberately be thrown away for the sake of it, I am saying getting a balance is most important and XIII utterly fails with it.

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I disagree with this part of your post. Of course, I may have experienced better gameplay than yourself as I have the game and enjoy playing it.

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I really don't understand why Graphics are held in such high status for a game.

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I do agree with this part, though. Having said that, I'm as guilty as anyone for not playing many old RPGs and instead playing new ones. Having said that, I've played a lot of FF games and I do put XIII up there with the better games. FFX arguably had better gameplay (despite the graphics still being alright) but I found the characters and story to be horrendous, particularly in the case of Tidus and Yuna. With that in mind, the game was already ruined for me because it felt like a chore to put up with the characters just to find out what was going to happen next in a story that, once I found the end of it, didn't really appeal to me too much (then again, many of the endings to FF games don't appeal to me much xD). You need to have decent gameplay (and I find that XIII's is decent) but also a decent set of characters and a decent story - and, of course, graphics should always be at least par for the age in which the game is released. I feel that XIII achieves a good count for all four areas, particularly the characters and graphics. X may have had good graphics and gameplay but the story and characters sucked. VII, meanwhile, achieved a great result in having all four be excellent for the time it was released. Can't beat it. ;) Basically, this gameplay may not be suited to you, but it is suited to some others, like myself. Would I have liked a bit more in the gameplay area? Maybe, but it was good enough to enjoy throughout.

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Originally Posted by zombiedude55

You can change substance as well, so what a stupid thing to say. :confused:

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Substance as in gameplay and things that appear in the game like Towns, interactive NPC, Minigames, all of which are mostly absent or severely lacking in XIII and for the stated reason that "it was too hard to do in HD"

So no, they didn't balance graphics vs gameplay at all, they went with graphics as the selling point and sadly it worked with a large proportion of audience (especially the non fanbase that they were catering to with the dumbed down mechanics). But in the future this game will be tossed on the same pile as 12, 13 and all these spin offs.

A game cannot survive by relying on graphics, future generations look back on a game and by then the graphics suck.

See, the only real problem I had with the lack of towns and all was the fact that NO RPG, not Final Fantasy XIII, VII, VI, or even my favorite, IX, can possibly hope to maintain the momentum of a storyline for 40+ hours. It's just not doable. So the only real solution to this is to lighten the tension so it doesn't drag after a while. Whether this is done by towns, NPCs, side-quests, exploration, mini-games, whatever, it's definitely a necessary part of an RPG experience.

I wont lie and say I didn't enjoy this game. I did, I had a LOT of fun with it... for a while. Then it just got so bogged down in all the tension and drama and everything that I really just wanted it to end. This is the first FF that I felt went on for too long since FFVIII, in which the sidequests never really appealed to me.

At least for me, the "Crash Bandicoot: The RPG" approach really hurt the game in the last quarter or so, when I really just stopped caring. The game refused to give you any reason to sympathize with anyone in Cocoon, the complete black-and-white morality is tedious and tiresome, and the narrative is not strong enough to carry the game. I repeat, NO narrative is strong enough to hold my attention for 40+ hours. You need MORE than that, and FFXIII fails to deliver.

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Originally Posted by arcanedude34

See, the only real problem I had with the lack of towns and all was the fact that NO RPG, not Final Fantasy XIII, VII, VI, or even my favorite, IX, can possibly hope to maintain the momentum of a storyline for 40+ hours. It's just not doable. So the only real solution to this is to lighten the tension so it doesn't drag after a while. Whether this is done by towns, NPCs, side-quests, exploration, mini-games, whatever, it's definitely a necessary part of an RPG experience.

I wont lie and say I didn't enjoy this game. I did, I had a LOT of fun with it... for a while. Then it just got so bogged down in all the tension and drama and everything that I really just wanted it to end. This is the first FF that I felt went on for too long since FFVIII, in which the sidequests never really appealed to me.

At least for me, the "Crash Bandicoot: The RPG" approach really hurt the game in the last quarter or so, when I really just stopped caring. The game refused to give you any reason to sympathize with anyone in Cocoon, the complete black-and-white morality is tedious and tiresome, and the narrative is not strong enough to carry the game. I repeat, NO narrative is strong enough to hold my attention for 40+ hours. You need MORE than that, and FFXIII fails to deliver.

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First that needs framing. Secondly, the whole reason we have minigames and towns and NPC in RPG"s is precisely for that reason. It is to a. give players a choice on how they proceed, b. maintain the illusion of the world you are in c. expand the story and d. break up the battles and tedious dungeon crawling.

When you try to "fix" a genre by removing things that made that genre popular you are going down the wrong street. And as you just said, when you do take away these things, the world becomes less real and thus the emotional impact of the story is severely weakened.

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

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Originally Posted by arcanedude34

See, the only real problem I had with the lack of towns and all was the fact that NO RPG, not Final Fantasy XIII, VII, VI, or even my favorite, IX, can possibly hope to maintain the momentum of a storyline for 40+ hours. It's just not doable. So the only real solution to this is to lighten the tension so it doesn't drag after a while. Whether this is done by towns, NPCs, side-quests, exploration, mini-games, whatever, it's definitely a necessary part of an RPG experience.

I wont lie and say I didn't enjoy this game. I did, I had a LOT of fun with it... for a while. Then it just got so bogged down in all the tension and drama and everything that I really just wanted it to end. This is the first FF that I felt went on for too long since FFVIII, in which the sidequests never really appealed to me.

At least for me, the "Crash Bandicoot: The RPG" approach really hurt the game in the last quarter or so, when I really just stopped caring. The game refused to give you any reason to sympathize with anyone in Cocoon, the complete black-and-white morality is tedious and tiresome, and the narrative is not strong enough to carry the game. I repeat, NO narrative is strong enough to hold my attention for 40+ hours. You need MORE than that, and FFXIII fails to deliver.

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First that needs framing. Secondly, the whole reason we have minigames and towns and NPC in RPG"s is precisely for that reason. It is to a. give players a choice on how they proceed, b. maintain the illusion of the world you are in c. expand the story and d. break up the battles and tedious dungeon crawling.

When you try to "fix" a genre by removing things that made that genre popular you are going down the wrong street. And as you just said, when you do take away these things, the world becomes less real and thus the emotional impact of the story is severely weakened.

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That's pretty much my gripe with the game in a nutshell, yeah. But again, it was an enjoyable ride for the first 60~75% at least.

It worked in Cocoon when the characters were on the run and, with the exception of Nautilus, didn't have the time or inclination (or non survival instincts) to hang around towns.

However on Pulse it did feel like a wasted opportunity to me. The explanation they went with was seemingly that all the Pulse people were wiped out (for reasons that, unless I'm missing something, are never really explained) but to me that seems like writing to cover for the lack of ability to do towns - which they openly admitted.

I already liked this game, but it could've easily been one of the best if they hadn't basically given up after Oerba. There was plenty of opportunity for Pulse towns, NPCs, alternative ways of taking the story that would involve them all and make it more epic, maybe have the Cavalry out there lending you an airship so you can go around finding answers and training etc. Instead they created Pulse and created this absolutely stunning, beautiful landscape - but put so much effort into the visuals that they ran out of steam and had to finish the game half way across a bridge. I wonder where it would've led.

Apparently Versus will have things like towns and airship travel (steerable, no less!) as they've been able to use the same engine and save a lot of time. So there's some hope there. I'm not sure I like the look and sound of the "real world" or "darkest ever FF" aspects though - if I wanted to be depressed by the darkness of the real world and probably lots of nice people dying etc I'd go and watch the news.

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Originally Posted by zombiedude55

Graphics are important. Classic or not, Final Fantasy 7 does, and always will look pretty retarded.

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Um, I think you just contradicted yourself there. If graphics are so important, why is FF7 a "Classic", by your own admission, despite the pathetic graphics?

Answer: Because graphics aren't that important, and have nothing to do with whether a game is remembered as a classic years later. When it comes down to it, what gamers enjoy most about a game isn't the graphics. And if the graphics are what a gamer remembers the most when they look back on a game, they are unlikely to consider it as great game as one which is more solid in the areas that are more important, such as gameplay, story, and characters.

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Originally Posted by Cloudane

However on Pulse it did feel like a wasted opportunity to me. The explanation they went with was seemingly that all the Pulse people were wiped out (for reasons that, unless I'm missing something, are never really explained)

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They are explained. Basically, there were wars amongst the towns and the fal'Cie kept making humans into l'Cie to the point that there weren't enough humans left to survive - or at least, there weren't enough in the areas that we are shown, which basically only had one town around in the past anyway (Oerba), which in itself was small. So the population can't have been that big to begin with, at least not there, anyway.

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but to me that seems like writing to cover for the lack of ability to do towns - which they openly admitted.

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They admitted that "towns in the traditional sense" were not included because of their lack of time/ability, meaning that the likes of Palumpolum, Nautilus, etc. were not made into fully fledged towns. However from what I can see there were never going to be any towns on Pulse. I'm trying to imagine how the game would have played out if they completely rewrote the history and had people still alive on Pulse, but no matter how much I look at it there is always a flaw in that concept, so it wouldn't make sense for me. It would definitely be interesting, though... but yeah, back to what I was getting at: the only part they acknowledged was that "traditional towns" (ie shops/inns/etc) were not included for that reason. They never said that they removed any towns entirely for that reason. It's basically just them explaining why there are online shops instead of physically visitable shops/inns.

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I already liked this game, but it could've easily been one of the best if they hadn't basically given up after Oerba. There was plenty of opportunity for Pulse towns, NPCs, alternative ways of taking the story that would involve them all and make it more epic, maybe have the Cavalry out there lending you an airship so you can go around finding answers and training etc. Instead they created Pulse and created this absolutely stunning, beautiful landscape - but put so much effort into the visuals that they ran out of steam and had to finish the game half way across a bridge.

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I agree that there could have been more, but again, I'm not sure how it would have played out. It would be interesting, but at the same time I still feel that they did a great job in creating the atmosphere and carrying on the l'Cie/slave theme, showing that obviously living on Pulse isn't exactly the bees knees either. It makes you consider whether Cocoon was a better place or not - although obviously, the whole "we're going to kill you all" thing probably doesn't leave much attraction to staying. But yeah... the whole concept of why Cocoon was created and why so many people left Pulse is based upon the idea that Pulse was not hospitable. With the number of people that left Pulse for Cocoon, combined with the number of fal'Cie making l'Cie of people, combined with the number of monsters that would (by this point) have less humans around to keep them in check, combined with the fact that Cocoon fal'Cie were ripping parts of Gran Pulse's civilisation apart to rebuild Cocoon post-Ragnarok... well, it makes sense that over 500 years that a place initially low in population (judging by there only being one small town) would no longer have people in it.

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I wonder where it would've led.

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Another town. ;) Obviously! But unless we let SE spend another four years making the game, I don't think we'd have ever got far. It's all good, though: FFXIII Versus will let you traverse Gran Pulse, so we get the best of both worlds via the two games.

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Apparently Versus will have things like towns and airship travel (steerable, no less!) as they've been able to use the same engine and save a lot of time. So there's some hope there. I'm not sure I like the look and sound of the "real world" or "darkest ever FF" aspects though - if I wanted to be depressed by the darkness of the real world and probably lots of nice people dying etc I'd go and watch the news.

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Haha, yeah, I can understand that. And I hate watching the news as it is. We'll have to see how it goes... knowing FF, though, I can't see it being depressing, just "ooh, we have more serious brooding characters." Whee...

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Originally Posted by Skyblade

Because graphics aren't that important, and have nothing to do with whether a game is remembered as a classic years later. When it comes down to it, what gamers enjoy most about a game isn't the graphics. And if the graphics are what a gamer remembers the most when they look back on a game, they are unlikely to consider it as great game as one which is more solid in the areas that are more important, such as gameplay, story, and characters.

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I agree.

I don't dislike HD at all, but if they give up minigames/towns/... for it, well, I don't think it's worth it at all. I'd rather have another FF VII than another FF XIII. (Though don't get me wrong - I like FF13, but I did miss the possibility of doing different sidequests)

What bothers me about Versus is that it's going to have Sasuke from Naruto as a main character. If it was your typical film noir-detective dude, then it would've been fine by me and I'd even have some hopes for it.

Any hopes I might have had for anything by Square Enix ended with X-2, XII, XIII, Dirge and all the other money spinners lacking substance. I don't see why I should get my hopes up with a series that abandoned its roots back in 2005. (I am currently retranslating VII and loving it, creating a new character for VII and loving it, making a difficulty mod for VII and loving it and finally beating Dark Aeons/penance fairly in X and loving it)

versus will be just another exercise in graphics over gameplay and I just can't see it being any good, but to be fair, it will prob beat XIII if they give it a world map and towns etc..