Why do we Western gamers always seem to like such "big, bad, and edgy" characters?

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Originally Posted by Ouch!

You're really not helping your case by citing an article in which all the quoted sources are female. Try harder.

Also, please stop referring to bands like Linkin Park as edgy or heavy. It's embarrassing.

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How could you not think of them as edgy and heavy? The really loud guitars and Chester Bennington's screaming sure sounds edgy to me! If not, then perhaps Limp Bizkit, Killswitch Engage, and Breaking Benjamin, along with many other heavy metal bands?

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Originally Posted by Vyk

I think Super's definition of edgey is a little more watered down than the average music enthusiast. As far as mainstream music goes, Linkin Park probably is more on that side of the spectrum. Especially older Linkin Park. If you want to consider their angst edgey, I think they were only outdone by maybe Eminem

As for my quoted statement. I didn't mean to imply everyone does (or should) outgrow pick-up-and-play games. I just mean its more of a natural progression, but not a guarantee. Certainly happens more often than people growing INTO those kinda games. I suppose I could have worded it better. But I cited that the west enjoys those kind of games more frequently than realized to try to counter-balance the fact that I grew out of them. I know I'm not a normal gamer. I'm extremely hard to please. A lot of western gamers really aren't as hard to please as they sound, or as SuperMillionaire thinks they might be. JRPGs are still going pretty strong for instance. And Pokemon is still a billion dollar phenomenon over here

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Yes, Pokemon is a phenomenon here, and that is one of the VERY FEW works of Japanese-made entertainment that has made it into the mainstream of American pop culture. The thing is, something is mainstream only if Hollywood talks about it. If it's not mentioned in Hollywood, then it's not mainstream.

Heavy metal, at least the kind of heavy metal you're talking about, isn't exactly edgy by current standards. The bands you're naming are comparatively mainstream for the genre and that tends to mean that they're substantially tamer than other bands in the genre. I'm not really into the whole genre to begin with, so I won't throw a bunch of examples at you, but there are plenty out there that make those bands look like classical music.

All said, I think you're extremely underestimating the proliferation of Japanese media in America. Last I heard, there was a projected statistic that anime and manga will be more culturally pervasive in the United States than comic books within the next decade or something like that. I can't find the source right now, but if you really want it, I'll try harder to track it down.

Hollywood is not the end-all-be-all benchmark of what is culturally relevant. That's an absolutely absurd assertion. If anything, Hollywood is typically a little bit behind what is culturally relevant in emerging entertainment. Right now, it's dominated by adaptations and sequels which, by their nature, are at least a year behind on something popular.

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Originally Posted by Ouch!

Because prog-rock is prog-rock, and Muse has far stronger influences than prog-rock.

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It's just a label, don't be so elitist.

That's not elitist. The following post is elitist. Muse is better classified as indie rock. Their last album certainly had some stronger progressive rock influences (it was a concept album based on a novel), but progressive rock is a very specific type of music with a specific sound and presentation not typically characteristic of Muse's music. Progressive rock, especially the later works of the genre which largely contributed to its downfall, were ridiculously bombastic. They were also occasionally accompanied by ice skating.

As mentioned, Muse has elements of progressive rock, especially in their latest album which is based on George Orwell's 1984. Doing concept albums based on literature (The Lord of the Rings and Arthurian legend are some of the bigger examples) is a huge staple of progressive rock (a tradition which spawned from the famous Beatles album Sergeant Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band), so I'll grant that. Muse also uses synthesizers occasionally, which is definitely a staple of any proper prog-rock band, but more often than not they'll use a piano instead. On the whole those, these influences are brief and hardly definitive of their style.

Calling Muse progressive rock (a rock movement which died at the end of the eighties, mind you) is like calling Wilco country. There are elements of it in the work, but it's hardly their defining characteristic.

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Originally Posted by SuperMillionaire

I noticed that even though Japan likes their cutesy-cutesy characters, the majority of us Westerners like big, bad, and edgy characters, or "badass" characters, but I don't get why. Personally, unlike the majority of you on this forum, while I do like my share of "badass" characters, I also like my cutesy-cutesy characters too. Case in point: the Japanese liked the inclusion of Vaan in Dissidia 012, but the majority of Westerners wanted the more "macho" Basch. Of course, there is still a sizable minority here who do like their cutesy-cutesy characters too, but the majority here likes "badass" characters.

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Also, thinking it over, I think more of us just like adults over children. They don't necessarily have to be badass. I mean, Sazh wasn't, but he was mature, collected, and witty, and we liked that. How many of our heroes are children? We empathize better with adults, and they are easier to look up to. More mature, more heroic. Not necessarily more edgy or badass.

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Also, another thing that I noticed is that while Japanese game players like cheeky, cutesy, and preppy J-Pop music, the majority of Westerners like big, bad, and edgy heavy metal. Of course, as with the case above, there is also a sizable minority here who likes cheeky American pop music by singers such as Hannah Montana/Miley Cyrus and other American pop stars, but the majority of Western game players like edgy heavy metal acts such as Linkin Park, Limp Bizkit, Killswitch Engage, and Breaking Benjamin. Personally, I'm into a mixture of both cheeky pop and edgy metal, but please don't ridicule me for liking Disney Channel pop stars. I would have to guess that this would have to be due to the fact that while it is mainstream in Japanese pop culture, it is largely UNDERGROUND in Western pop culture. It's popular here, too, but it's underground in comparison to its force in Japanese pop culture, as video game references in American pop culture are VERY SELDOM in comparison to Japanese pop culture.

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I like good music, be it of every variety. That is entirely subjective, and, yes, can be influenced by culture. There were some western gamers who really enjoyed the battle theme of FFX-2, even though I personally think it is one of the worst pieces of music in the series. I like Real Emotion and 1000 Words though (and the ending battle theme is brilliant). I certainly don't like most of the bands you've listed (or the pop singers, for that matter), and among artists I do listen to, I tend to like one song, maybe two, and despise the rest.

If you group things widely enough, you can divide it up however you want. Things aren't that simple.

True, you're partially right in that it's not ALWAYS the case, and I never said it was ALWAYS the case in the first place; I said it was in THE MAJORITY of cases.

Yes, adults are obviously more mature, but just because you're a fighter doesn't mean you have to be so "macho."

And if I really was "closed-minded," would I even be thinking about these kinds of things?

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Originally Posted by kotora

lol your premise doesn't make much sense with linkin park and hannah montana being underground and edgy


Anyway, the Japanese like them girly dudes so they won't have to feel as bad about their wieners being so small. Which of course was caused by the radiation of them bombs the white man dropped on their asses.

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coming from the guy with justin bieber for the avatar...

yeah I think it's all depending on personal taste. Sometime the "girly" male characters really are badass. Look at Kadaj in Advent Children. I personally liked him over Loz and Yazoo. Vaan isn't too bad. I use him more than Basch. Sometimes the girly man characters are more badass than the manly man ones. I really do think it all boils down to taste... Just my two cents.

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Originally Posted by SuperMillionaire

And if I really was "closed-minded," would I even be thinking about these kinds of things?

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Nobody actually called you closed-minded, you're the first one to bring that up. I'd say that this is more about a lack of knowledge, experience, or exposure.

You're still kind of ignoring the obvious point that almost everyone has said: Japan has a different culture. I tried to give a little more specific insight into why their culture is different, and I could give more, yet you don't really seem that interested in it.

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Originally Posted by JKTrix

You're still kind of ignoring the obvious point that almost everyone has said: Japan has a different culture. I tried to give a little more specific insight into why their culture is different, and I could give more, yet you don't really seem that interested in it.

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Keep in mind this is the same guy who argued bullheadedly that despite the fact the he acknowledged that Sora, Riku, and Kairi are not English names that they should still have American English surnames. Cultural distinction doesn't really seem to be in his vocabulary.

I think he kinda marries his arguments as well. So throwing out information is just going to cause discussions to run in circles

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Originally Posted by Ouch!

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Originally Posted by JKTrix

You're still kind of ignoring the obvious point that almost everyone has said: Japan has a different culture. I tried to give a little more specific insight into why their culture is different, and I could give more, yet you don't really seem that interested in it.

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Keep in mind this is the same guy who argued bullheadedly that despite the fact the he acknowledged that Sora, Riku, and Kairi are not English names that they should still have American English surnames. Cultural distinction doesn't really seem to be in his vocabulary.

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Forget about the surnames. I just want to know why we like more "big, bad, and edgy" characters moreso than the Japanese. I know that that there are differences, but I want to know WHY.

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Originally Posted by JKTrix

There are psychosocial things to consider as well. Japanese people are stereotypically timid, so having a 'cutesy', accommodating, non-threatening character might naturally appeal to them. People in other cultures, particularly males, are more likely to prefer a 'badass' character that they can look up to and admire (or at least believe can take on an alien army) without feeling threatened by them. If they only had a choice between one or the other.

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You acknowledge that our cultures are different. Why are they different? They developed independently of one another for hundreds of years. Significant cultural exchange between the east and west is still a relatively new thing. Naturally our cultures would exhibit differing preferences in a number of areas.

Personally, I think the western market's preference for "tough" or "bad ass" lead characters is less about an absolute aversion to young, effeminate teenage characters and more about, as JKTrix mentioned, believability. More of then than not, the lead character is thrust into a role in which he must defend the world. This often requires great acts of physical strength and endurance. It's just much easier to believe that Master Chief, a genetically and physically enhanced super soldier is going to lead humanity's campaign to defeat a conglomerate of vicious aliens than it is to believe that Vaan the seventeen-year-old street rat is going to picking up a great axe and slaying dragons and demi-gods.

Also I'm just sick of playing as kids. It wasn't even that relate-able when I was a kid. Having a mature adult in lead roles is just more palatable to me. It doesn't even have to be a bad-ass. In fact, I tend to have an aversion to bad-asses as well. They're rarely done right. And when they are, they tend to get milked too much and tiresome (Kratos [fun for one game, got old after two, now there's like six])

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Originally Posted by Ouch!

You acknowledge that our cultures are different. Why are they different? They developed independently of one another for hundreds of years. Significant cultural exchange between the east and west is still a relatively new thing. Naturally our cultures would exhibit differing preferences in a number of areas.

Personally, I think the western market's preference for "tough" or "bad ass" lead characters is less about an absolute aversion to young, effeminate teenage characters and more about, as JKTrix mentioned, believability. More of then than not, the lead character is thrust into a role in which he must defend the world. This often requires great acts of physical strength and endurance. It's just much easier to believe that Master Chief, a genetically and physically enhanced super soldier is going to lead humanity's campaign to defeat a conglomerate of vicious aliens than it is to believe that Vaan the seventeen-year-old street rat is going to picking up a great axe and slaying dragons and demi-gods.

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True, but alas, the unlikely street-rat can end up becoming the hero who slays vicious monsters and opponents. I can see Vaan as being similar to Disney's Aladdin in this aspect.

I also don't get why the majority of you would like to ridicule characters who are not "big, bad, and edgy" as "wusses" or "pansies." Just because they may not look or act "big, bad, and edgy" doesn't mean that they are "wusses" or "pansies."