Game Pros and Cons

What determines that Seymour and Mika are important characters? I mean, yes, they have an important role in the plot, but in-universe? What would logically make them able to stay alive while others don't? Either others can stay too but you can't see it, or they stay because they know they can stay, unlike the masses, which is another argument as to why this religion is just one-dimensionally evil. And if they don't stay dead only because the plot says the can't, then that just further proves how inept the writers of this game were. And we'll never know, since nobody seems to bat an eye at the fact that they're unsent yet look human, even though Yevon tells them people change into monsters when they die.

I still can't see the noble goal you keep mentioning. Sin is a creation of Yevon and Yevon hides that fact so that they can use people's fear of Sin to unquestionably control them. All they do is so that they can perpetuate people's ignorance and make them faithful to Yevon, even if they do use excuses that people will die otherwise. Well, guess what, Mika. You could just tell people you're an unsent so that they could stay alive as long as they wished to. Oh wait, I guess they can't because they're not part of the plot.

That circular argument that gets used about death being terrible and the only solution is more death reminds me of how Spoony summed up Shuyin's motivation in X-2: "I'm sick of all the violence and hate in the world. That's why I'm gonna violently hate-smurf the planet with my weapon of mass destruction's cock gun."

From what I gathered, Seymour and Mika (and Auron too) are able to remain as unsent because they have a strong attachment to the world, a strong will and purpose to remain. They're a lot like Sephiroth in that regard. Everyone becomes unsent when they die, but there are three possible outcomes: 1. they accept their death and peacefully fade into the farplane. 2. they refuse to accept their own death and envy the living which eventually grows out of control and manifests them as fiends. 3. they refuse to accept their own death but manage to not fall to despair as they feel they still have something they have to do, thus they form their own body from their pyreflies and that's the essence of the unsent people.

Also, while it's true that the Order of Yevon perpetuates several lies, I doubt the majority of them are for the purpose of controlling people. I believe that the ones who came up with Yevon's teachings and spread them had nothing less in mind than to give the people of Spira hope, something to cling to, even if it's an illusion. And honestly, I don't think that's changed. Mika cares deeply for Spira to the point where he can't bear staying to watch its inevitable demise. He really does believe that the illusion is the best way to give hope to the people, and that he's doing something noble in perpetuating it. At least that's my interpretation.

Seymour is a more difficult case. He's suffered from and extremely traumatizing childhood, ranging from racism to his own mother almost forcing her belief that he should become a High Summoner on him. Thus, it's unclear whether or not he actually has the best intentions for the people of Spira in mind. It could be that he's incredibly misled into believing death actually does mean salvation, as he himself has largely only benefitted from dying and may believe the same would apply to everyone. He could also be the total opposite of Mika, believing that Yevon's lies are a horrible way to keep Spira going - yet he does not believe that Spira could be saved from the spiral of death and keeping it going is absolutely pointless.

So lying about everything and acting like a complete hypocrite is acceptable, as long as it is for "the good of the people".

...Are you by chance a politician?

Also, it's not the good of the people. The church of Yevon knows of a way to beat Sin once and for all. And chooses not to share that knowledge. If the Crusaders had known this, operation Mi'ihen would have been a success!

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Originally Posted by The White Wizard of Fynn

Also, it's not the good of the people. The church of Yevon knows of a way to beat Sin once and for all. And chooses not to share that knowledge. If the Crusaders had known this, operation Mi'ihen would have been a success!

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Well, to be fair, knowing that killing Yu-Yevon would break the cycle isn't the same thing as knowing how to kill Yu-Yevon, since you have to get through Sin first. So Operation Mi'hen would still have probably failed.

On the other hand, if Yevon was sincere and open about getting rid of Sin, there would be a thousand Crusaders waiting each time the Final Aeon was summoned to finish off the jellyfish before the new Sin is formed.

Exactly.

But what I meant about operation Mi'ihen is that it could have been planned out differently if they knew they were aiming at the jelly tick inside, not the armor itself. They had loads more firepower than Meg Ryan and his gang, so if only they'd known that they won't destroy Sin by hitting it head on and had to figure out a way to get to the middle of it, it would have been successful. Heck, if Yevon had been honest, the eternal calm would have come waaaay sooner than a thousand years later.

And this is all because these people think that's what religious people are like - you need to follow dumb laws even if they don't make sense and there are better ways to go about things, because we are blind and stupid and gullible enough to listen to religious authorities who ban things just because it to abuse power.

I mean, smurfing Shin Megami Tensei is better in that regard. The God there is unquestionably evil, but at least this is based on some real beliefs and antitheist philosophies, jest like Xenogears borrowed all of it's mythos from Gnosticism. There's a lot to hate about those games if you dislike the concept of an evil god, but at least those two games really put a lot of work and effort to make their religious aspect actually reflect some valid philosophical mindset. In comparison, FFX seems like something a teenager would come up with, one who only ever heard of Nietsche at best.

Actually, this is making a lot of sense. Mika doesn't believe Yu-Yevon can be stopped, but does believe that the teachings are important to placating him and keeping him from casually wiping out all life.

That's why during the wedding, it's only Seymour's Guado henchmen who carry forbidden machina, as they didn't grow up with the teachings. And why Mika immediately turns to Seymour and goes "WTF, dude, are you trying to summon Sin to Bevelle and get the most populous city in Spira wiped out?"

And then Seymour has Mika's unsent body turned into Swiss cheese as he makes a hostile takeover of the Church, since Mika cares too much about the teachings and the people to let such actions stand.

And then, since the teachings of Yevon are placating Yu-Yevon, Sin stops by and nukes the entire city.

Oh, wait, that's not quite what happens, is it? Mika doesn't care, neither do the "loyal Yevonite storm troopers", and none of Yevon's teachings turn out to be accurate or have anything to do with Sin's behavior, and the entire Church clergy knows this.

For God's smurfing sake


Final Fantasy X Cutscenes - Return to Bevelle - YouTube

"You've taken away the only means of calming Sin!"

"Preposterous! There is no other way!"

"And the only thing that could have pierced that armor, you have destroyed!"

Yes yes these are clearly all lies he's telling the party. He's obviously BS'ing them for one last grand performance to prove what an evil douchebag he is.

Or...MAYBE...he's telling the goddam truth and every goddam line in the game supports that this is what he absolutely believes?

Maybe?

Yes?

Okay.

Now that we've established Mika did care and was doing the best he could in his own way, let's examine the facts about defeating Yu Yevon.

Final Fantasy X Cutscenes - Help from the Fayth - YouTube

"I'm afraid your swords and magic won't be enough."

Now what are the odds the Fayth ever had a chat with Mika or any other Maester and explain this to them? To quote Ormi "zero, zilch and zippal."

It's not a matter of just whacking Yu Yevon with a sword or even blasting him with a cannon. As stated here and shown in the game, to defeat Yu Yevon you must repeatedly weaken him by having him possess summons and then killing those summons.

But ya know, fighting Yu Yevon is a pipe-dream to begin with. You know why? Because you're not gonna get through Sin's armor with anything less than the Final Summoning. The party only did as well as it did because Jecht had a connection to Tidus and thus he was weaker than he should have been. Any other Sin would have squished our heroes and their airship flat.

So to defeat Sin and Yu Yevon in the game, we had two entirely unique situations that had never happened in a thousand years.

So, no, I don't blame Mika and the others for believing their way was the only way. Until Tidus came along, there really was no other chance of permanently defeating Sin.

What's more, as Maechen said, the leaders of Bevelle were afraid of Sin, for good reason I'd say. They adopted those teachings to try and pacify Yevon.
Did they work? It doesn't matter. They were doing everything they could to keep people alive. If you cannot stop the abomination from crushing your home, why not grovel at its feet? You're not any less dead if he crushes you standing up or kneeling. Better to at least try something to save yourself and your loved ones.

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Originally Posted by Skyblade

So lying about everything and acting like a complete hypocrite is acceptable, as long as it is for "the good of the people".

...Are you by chance a politician?

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Was that question directed at me? If so, no I do not condone it, I merely stated that I believe Mika acts this way.

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Oh, wait, that's not quite what happens, is it? Mika doesn't care, neither do the "loyal Yevonite storm troopers", and none of Yevon's teachings turn out to be accurate or have anything to do with Sin's behavior, and the entire Church clergy knows this.

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This is where reasoning gets a little more complex, so bear with me. As far as I recall, the teachings of Yevon were not made by the man himself. Of course not. The people who feared Sin created them. So since it's been established that Sin attacks larger settlements that start to make technological progress, it's only natural to assume that "machina = bad, it calls Sin". That might've made it into the teachings. However, over the course of 1000 years, the higher-ups of the Order may have been able to more accurately determine just what Sin is drawn to and to what it's not. Thus, maybe they found out that the guns the guards are using specifically are not a cause of Sin's appearance.

Of course, I can think of multiple reasons as to why the church might not want to publicly announce this. For one, a 'mistake' in the teachings would severely damage their credibility, something which the Order must've wanted to avoid at all costs. Second, maybe they were afraid of the guns being used in actual human conflicts, and since the Order of Yevon does still have the best intentions for the people of Spira in mind, they must've tried to avoid that as well. So they did the reasonable thing: not use them unless they really need to. Someone attempting to denounce Yevon is a traitor and to preserve the peaceful atmosphere the teachings brought, they must be dealt with, which is where the guns come into play.

Nice to see some discussion :D

As far as I know, Sin is ordered specifically to destroy places with a lot of machina to prevent another incident like when Bevelle was so technologically advanced that Yu Yevon summoned up Sin to punish them. Sin destroys places where lots of people gather and/or places that use a lot of machina, thereby halting its advancement.

I don't believe, replaying the game, that Mika and most of Yevon know there is another way to defeat Sin. They truly believe the Final Summoning is the only way. Like people have pointed out, Mika and Yunalesca get quite upset when the Final Summoning is stopped, and not because it ends their reign of power, that's just truly what they believe. They don't know of another way.

Also, there have been, what 5? summoners who have defeated Sin? Yunalesca, Gandof, Ohalland, Yocun, and now Braska. There are many more summoners, but those are the only High Summoners who have defeated Sin. Add to that the halt in technological advancement, and it isn't super easy to figure out there are other ways to defeat Sin. Even so, they have shown improvement. If you look at the timeline:

1000 years ago: Yunalesca defeats Sin
500 years ago: Gandof defeats Sin
230 years ago: Ohalland defeats Sin
??? unspecified: Yocun defeats Sin
10 years ago: Braska defeats Sin

If you look at that, the rate at which they defeat Sin increases a good bit, showing that they are learning and adapting as things progress. If not Yuna, chances are the Calms would get closer and closer together still and someone would figure something out. Heck, Seymour was even on to something, he was just too messed up to do anything properly.

Also add to the fact that this culture of Yevon is so ingrained in them. Its easy for us to look at this from the outside and see how blind they are, but this is such a part of their culture that they don't even think about it. Lulu and Yuna mention this a few times when Tidus asks. Sure, Yevon does have some corruption to them, but when its such a part of someones culture, so much that it goes back A THOUSAND YEARS, a lot of them genuinely believe they are doing good and are on the right side of things. Including Mika it seems. When something is so ingrained in your culture, you don't even think to question it. Its just how its done. Heck I see some of that in some real world countries.

Pros: Fun way to pass the time
Cons: Eventually ends at some point

I'm sure these would be better thought out if it hasn't been years since I played.

Getting away from all the other crap for a second, my chief complaint with the story is how short the Calms are. I think a lot of people assumed that Sin was gone for ten years after Braska beat it. It's never said but it's just kind of a common misunderstanding and a logical one IMO. A lot of people think that it just came around again kinda recently when Yuna started on her pilgrimage.

Official timeline shows however that the Calm lasts a ridiculously short period of time. Was it like a couple months? Maybe a year or two? I call bull on that. Dedicating everything to a decade of peace is believable and understandable but not a few damned months.

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Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover

For God's smurfing sake


Final Fantasy X Cutscenes - Return to Bevelle - YouTube

"You've taken away the only means of calming Sin!"

"Preposterous! There is no other way!"

"And the only thing that could have pierced that armor, you have destroyed!"

Yes yes these are clearly all lies he's telling the party. He's obviously BS'ing them for one last grand performance to prove what an evil douchebag he is.

Or...MAYBE...he's telling the goddam truth and every goddam line in the game supports that this is what he absolutely believes?

Maybe?

Yes?

Okay.

Now that we've established Mika did care and was doing the best he could in his own way, let's examine the facts about defeating Yu Yevon.

Final Fantasy X Cutscenes - Help from the Fayth - YouTube

"I'm afraid your swords and magic won't be enough."

Now what are the odds the Fayth ever had a chat with Mika or any other Maester and explain this to them? To quote Ormi "zero, zilch and zippal."

It's not a matter of just whacking Yu Yevon with a sword or even blasting him with a cannon. As stated here and shown in the game, to defeat Yu Yevon you must repeatedly weaken him by having him possess summons and then killing those summons.

But ya know, fighting Yu Yevon is a pipe-dream to begin with. You know why? Because you're not gonna get through Sin's armor with anything less than the Final Summoning. The party only did as well as it did because Jecht had a connection to Tidus and thus he was weaker than he should have been. Any other Sin would have squished our heroes and their airship flat.

So to defeat Sin and Yu Yevon in the game, we had two entirely unique situations that had never happened in a thousand years.

So, no, I don't blame Mika and the others for believing their way was the only way. Until Tidus came along, there really was no other chance of permanently defeating Sin.

What's more, as Maechen said, the leaders of Bevelle were afraid of Sin, for good reason I'd say. They adopted those teachings to try and pacify Yevon.
Did they work? It doesn't matter. They were doing everything they could to keep people alive. If you cannot stop the abomination from crushing your home, why not grovel at its feet? You're not any less dead if he crushes you standing up or kneeling. Better to at least try something to save yourself and your loved ones.

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Great. So that explains why no one has killed Yu-Yevon (though, again, not why no one has tried killing Yu-Yevon after the Final Aeon already destroyed Sin, while he was possessing the weakened Aeon, any of the four times it had already happened). It is specifically stated that it takes time to turn the Aeon into the new Sin. That's what the Calm is all about. Until the new Sin is fully functional, the Aeon, and thus, Yu-Yevon, are vulnerable. Had anyone known that, you could have had Operation Mi'hen type weapons at least attempting to take down Yu-Yevon in that time.

But, again, I'll give you that point, even as sketchy as it might be.

How does that explain any of the rest of the absolute nonsense that the Temple knowingly and willingly enforces? How does that explain someone who believes in the teachings not just ignoring them, but openly flaunting them. The strictures against machine? The necessity for prayer? The constant lies about atonement? All complete hypocrisy.

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Originally Posted by Karifean

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Originally Posted by Skyblade

So lying about everything and acting like a complete hypocrite is acceptable, as long as it is for "the good of the people".

...Are you by chance a politician?

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Was that question directed at me? If so, no I do not condone it, I merely stated that I believe Mika acts this way.

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Nope, it was directed to this line:

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Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover

And yes, Yevon was founded on lies. But they were lies for a noble end. That is supported by everything in the game and that was my only point.

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Oh, wait, that's not quite what happens, is it? Mika doesn't care, neither do the "loyal Yevonite storm troopers", and none of Yevon's teachings turn out to be accurate or have anything to do with Sin's behavior, and the entire Church clergy knows this.

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This is where reasoning gets a little more complex, so bear with me. As far as I recall, the teachings of Yevon were not made by the man himself. Of course not. The people who feared Sin created them. So since it's been established that Sin attacks larger settlements that start to make technological progress, it's only natural to assume that "machina = bad, it calls Sin". That might've made it into the teachings. However, over the course of 1000 years, the higher-ups of the Order may have been able to more accurately determine just what Sin is drawn to and to what it's not. Thus, maybe they found out that the guns the guards are using specifically are not a cause of Sin's appearance.

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Actually, the only evidence in the game that Sin attacks areas of technological progress comes from the teachings of Yevon. Bevelle and Luca both go through the game utterly unscathed. As opposed to Kilika, which is clearly a technological powerhouse.

You'd think, if Sin was supposed to destroy heavily developed areas, that Bevelle would be constantly under siege, and since we've shown that he's quite capable of summoning a black hole the size of a small city, nothing the Crusaders could do would possibly stop him. That entire "stop technology" directive that Sin supposedly has (which apparently is to keep anything from becoming a threat to Sin) really falls short if it just leaves a place like Bevelle alone because of guards with guns.

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Of course, I can think of multiple reasons as to why the church might not want to publicly announce this. For one, a 'mistake' in the teachings would severely damage their credibility, something which the Order must've wanted to avoid at all costs. Second, maybe they were afraid of the guns being used in actual human conflicts, and since the Order of Yevon does still have the best intentions for the people of Spira in mind, they must've tried to avoid that as well. So they did the reasonable thing: not use them unless they really need to. Someone attempting to denounce Yevon is a traitor and to preserve the peaceful atmosphere the teachings brought, they must be dealt with, which is where the guns come into play.

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"Really need to" being "ensure Yuna gets married". Really? Bevelle is full of machina. Heck, remember the Moonflow? When Wakka tells you of the city that is destroyed because it was a city arrogantly built over the water? Have you seen Bevelle? It's way, way worse. It has machina built into every aspect of the city. Or how do they hide the DOZENS OF FLOATING PLATFORMS THAT MAKE UP THE CLOYSTER OF TRIALS?! Every summoner who goes through the Pilgrimage knows that it's a machina city, and that it's also the most populous city on the planet. It SHOULD be Sin's biggest target. But it isn't.

The Bevelle thing is a bit... odd. From searching around, it seems that Sin has taken a shot at Luca a few times, but the Crusaders work hard to rebuild it quickly and do everything they can to protect it.

As for Bevelle, there are a few theories. One is that most of Bevelle's machina is underground and/or well hidden as illustrated by Wakka's shock at the large amount of Machina he sees at Yuna's wedding. I am not a fan of that theory. The second one is that Sin mostly attacks coastal towns (Kilika) and things out in the ocean (S.S. Liki, the Al Bhed Ship) because Dream Zanarkand is located out in the ocean near Baaj Temple and part of what Sin does is protect Dream Zanarkand. That's also one of the reasons Yu Yevon wanted to stunt technological advancement is so no one would discover Dream Zanarkand. Bevelle is very much inland, and thus less of a threat. Or you could blame it on bad writing if you want to. It is after all a work of fiction meaning it is possible some stuff just doesn't have an answer.

If it is the second one, you may wonder how no one had discovered Dream Zanarkand. The answer to that seems to be that any ship that goes near it will be destroyed by Sin, and when Cid gets the Airship, its basically a first and they hadn't had time to go exploring and find it, especially since they weren't totally clear on what to look for and where to look for it. Plus they were preoccupied with the whole deafeat Sin thing.

Something I've never understood is why Sin attacks Dream Zanarkand in the beginning of the game. I assume it was to bring Tidus to Spira, but it is never totally clear. Maybe because its a dream, Yu Yevon can basically continue Dream Zanarkand as if Sin had never attacked it, minus Tidus who is now gone.

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Originally Posted by shion

Something I've never understood is why Sin attacks Dream Zanarkand in the beginning of the game. I assume it was to bring Tidus to Spira, but it is never totally clear. Maybe because its a dream, Yu Yevon can basically continue Dream Zanarkand as if Sin had never attacked it, minus Tidus who is now gone.

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I always kinda assumed Jecht controlled it to go there and then... things just kinda went their course. Sin is a being that destroys big cities after all. You might guess that Sin is naturally 'programmed' just not to go near DZ (thus preventing it from attacking it), but Jecht forcibly made it go there.

@Skyblade The whole thing about prayer and atonement I assumed was just to bring the people inner peace. If they can pray to be forgiven, that may give them peace of mind. It doesn't necessarily have to do with appeasing Sin/Yu Yevon. It could've eventually been born from the teachings that Yevon was sort of a deity and if you sin you should beg for forgiveness. I mean what do you expect a people doomed for 1000 years to come up with for leading an easier life?