Western "Censorship" In Star Ocean: Integrity and Faithlessness

To be clear - censorship happens when people's free speech is systemically limited. Think letters that get intercepted with important data erased out with a marker, or being thrown into jail for saying (not even acting on - just saying) a political opinion that is different from what the government allows, or newspapers being banned from posting anything else than what the government allows because other content could threaten their authority.

A company willingly deciding to cover up a character in their game for a foreign release to avoid backlash stemming from Values Dissonance is not censorship in any stretch of the word.

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Originally Posted by Freya

You're arguing for more teen panties to be shown. You know how odd that sounds?

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You're arguing that because you don't like something, it shouldn't be made, nor should anyone like it and if anyone does like it they should be ashamed of themselves. You are judgemental, selfish and deluded, thinking you and you alone have the right to decide how everyone else should feel about something you don't like.

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Slippery slope? You sound like the twitter guy. End of the world if a teen character shows less butt. Oh no.

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Sorry, but that's not what I said at all, because you don't want to pay attention to what I say, you just want to posture yourself as if morally superior and holier than thou. Here, I shall spell it out for you, your righteousness: I did not say no teenage butts are the end of the world. I said that censoring something because it makes someone uncomfortable is a questionable practice, for reasons that should be obvious. There is always someone going to be offended or uncomfortable with something.

Shall we ban homosexuality from games too? Lots of people uncomfortable with that. Shall we ban black people from appearing in games? I can think of quite a few people uncomfortable with that. How about murder? Lots of people uncomfortable with that. Brown coloured buildings, some people find that uncomfortable. Etc.

But let me guess. "Those are TOTALLY different things!" right? Your whole shtick with "we shouldn't encourage such thoughts" reeks of tunnel-vissioned hypocrisy, because again, murder, violence, theft, racism, all of those are perfectly okay in your book, else you'd be vehemently arguing for the censorship of those too. None of those things I mentioned is culturally accepted by any culture, by the way, we all think those things are bad. Except you're not doing that. Not a peep. You don't think having games where you get to snipe other people in the head, or hack and slash a whole city's population, or committing robberies or paid assassinations encourages bad thoughts? Some games even revel in how they glorify murder, violence and bloodshed, but none of that makes you pause? Not even a second?

How convenient.

Clearly when it comes to violence, we can handle ourselves and you trust us to be able to behave acceptably, but when it comes to sex, obviously western men are cavemen beasts barely restraining themselves from raping everything in sight who are obviously in need of righteous women such as yourself to lecture them about what they can or cannot do in real life as soon as a teenage girl's panties get flashed by accident. Thank god you were there to tell me that if I went out on the street and grabbed a girl to see her panties, I'd be doing a very bad thing and should be arrested, I never would have guessed! I mean, it was in a video game, so I thought it would be okay, just like last week when I went on a shooting spree in my local grocery store because DooM taught me to do so, but thankfully, thanks to you saying how despicable and weird I am, I know totally better! I never would have been able to conclude this on my own!

And end sarcasm.

Going to practice mass murder in Dark Souls now for my killing spree next week in my town square, as the game clearly encourages me to do so and since nobody changed it, it means it's perfectly okay to have such thoughts.

Why yes, I'm taking the urine now, because the whole argument of "encouraging bad thoughts" is bollocks.

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Originally Posted by Fox

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Originally Posted by Elpizo

Because if we're honestly going to censor things because people are 'uncomfortable' with certain matters, well... Do I really need to point out how slippery that slope is?

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Again - not censorship. Not even close to censorship.

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I'm really not going to argue the semantics of what to call it, since it's hardly relevant. Point is they changed something when I feel they shouldn't have, because we're not all braindead and can understand to not repeat certain things in real life that we do in games. Call it censorship, call it editing, call it rainbowskyfishing, doesn't really matter to me.

Reminder to not personally attack other members. Cut it out.

Look, Elipzo, I can see we fundamentally disagree what is okay and what isn't okay. That's not going to change. You're okay with teen underwear, I am not. And that's okay to have differences like that.

But changing something ever so slightly to fit a cultural market isn't a bad thing. It's showing respect for other cultures. That's what square enix did. It isn't them changing their whole vision. It's just them being respectful, which is a good thing and more people should be more respectful to others.

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Going to practice mass murder in Dark Souls now for my killing spree next week in my town square, as the game clearly encourages me to do so and since nobody changed it, it means it's perfectly okay to have such thoughts.

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At work and can't reply in detail, but false equivalency much?

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Originally Posted by Elpizo

To be honest I don't even know the first thing about Star Ocean or its characters, having never played any of the games and no real intent to do so any time soon, so there's no real personal stake for me in this and I honestly have no real preference to long or short skirts on these characters. :p Just using it as an example to make my point, in this case.

Thing is, I'm not saying Freya can't be uncomfortable with it, or that anyone can't be uncomfortable with it (as long as they're not trying to actively hinder anyone who is comfortable with it from being comfortable with it, that is), I'm just arguing that that's no real reason to put this censorship into place. Let people decide for themselves what they want, is what I'm trying to say in the end. Those who are uncomfortable with panty shots can then opt to not buy the game or to not play with that character or take care to never aim their camera that way, while those who love it can stare at their video game panties all day long.

But having the choice made for us, as if all western gamers have a phobia of panties or wouldn't understand or would be uncomfortable with it, just feels belittling. I can make up my own mind, tyvm, developers, so I would like the option of choice. There's no need to talk down to us like this. We're not fragile and we don't need sheltering from things that you think will weird us out. Let me decide if I find it weird or not, so that I can then make a decision of what to do next.

If Freya doesn't want to buy Star Ocean because there are teen panties in it, that's fine, her choice. If Steve wants to buy Star Ocean because it has teen panties in it, his choice, he can do so. However, the line for me is drawn if Freya wants to take away Steve's teen panties because she's uncomfortable with it. If Steve is not hurting anyone (without their consent), nobody, not Freya nor anyone else, has the right to take away Steve's video game teen panties, no matter how weird she thinks Steve is.

Because if we're honestly going to censor things because people are 'uncomfortable' with certain matters, well... Do I really need to point out how slippery that slope is?

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You seem to be operating under the idea that people are "afraid" of panties or that people "think it's weird" to want to look at them. People are not afraid of panties. Have you ever considered that young girls and women don't want to be sexualized, and that this kind of portrayal encourages that sexualization?

It is harmful to women in real time, in real life. Worse; it sexualizes young girls, and they in turn have to deal with that from men and boys who play these games. Your horrifying arguments of "are people running around molesting children in real life?! NO?!" are perplexing. You flat out don't know that; there's no way that you could. Additionally, it is a different argument completely from video game violence vs. real life violence. Sexual objectification from characters being portrayed this way can be exhibited in real life on a much smaller scale that does not lead to bloodshed in the streets with twenty dead, but it still affects people (women) in a very real way. It also lets men get away with it in a very real way.

It's honestly outrageously offensive for you to sit here posting about how it doesn't harm anyone and how people should just be allowed their sexual perversions along with your fearmongering about "a slippery slope" of censorship. The fact that you so easily boil it down to "it's not hurting anyone" is a direct objectification of women and young girls because in saying that, you validate real-life sexualization in the same way; that "it's not hurting anyone." That de-humanizes us. You are wrong that it does not hurt anyone. It hurts us.

It's not "a slippery slope of censorship." It's something that we would like to have stop happening because it affects us in real life. We would like to stop being sexualized and having young girls be sexualized. Arguing that video games do not encourage that is false. Every sexualization and objectification encourages it, period. Not only that, it is horrifyingly alarming that you are making these arguments with tones of pedophilia apologism and trying to normalize these concepts.

This shouldn't even be in line with censorship. It should be in line with human decency.

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Originally Posted by Shorty

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Originally Posted by Elpizo

To be honest I don't even know the first thing about Star Ocean or its characters, having never played any of the games and no real intent to do so any time soon, so there's no real personal stake for me in this and I honestly have no real preference to long or short skirts on these characters. :p Just using it as an example to make my point, in this case.

Thing is, I'm not saying Freya can't be uncomfortable with it, or that anyone can't be uncomfortable with it (as long as they're not trying to actively hinder anyone who is comfortable with it from being comfortable with it, that is), I'm just arguing that that's no real reason to put this censorship into place. Let people decide for themselves what they want, is what I'm trying to say in the end. Those who are uncomfortable with panty shots can then opt to not buy the game or to not play with that character or take care to never aim their camera that way, while those who love it can stare at their video game panties all day long.

But having the choice made for us, as if all western gamers have a phobia of panties or wouldn't understand or would be uncomfortable with it, just feels belittling. I can make up my own mind, tyvm, developers, so I would like the option of choice. There's no need to talk down to us like this. We're not fragile and we don't need sheltering from things that you think will weird us out. Let me decide if I find it weird or not, so that I can then make a decision of what to do next.

If Freya doesn't want to buy Star Ocean because there are teen panties in it, that's fine, her choice. If Steve wants to buy Star Ocean because it has teen panties in it, his choice, he can do so. However, the line for me is drawn if Freya wants to take away Steve's teen panties because she's uncomfortable with it. If Steve is not hurting anyone (without their consent), nobody, not Freya nor anyone else, has the right to take away Steve's video game teen panties, no matter how weird she thinks Steve is.

Because if we're honestly going to censor things because people are 'uncomfortable' with certain matters, well... Do I really need to point out how slippery that slope is?

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You seem to be operating under the idea that people are "afraid" of panties or that people "think it's weird" to want to look at them. People are not afraid of panties. Have you ever considered that young girls and women don't want to be sexualized, and that this kind of portrayal encourages that sexualization?

It is harmful to women in real time, in real life. Worse; it sexualizes young girls, and they in turn have to deal with that from men and boys who play these games. Your horrifying arguments of "are people running around molesting children in real life?! NO?!" are perplexing. You flat out don't know that; there's no way that you could. Additionally, it is a different argument completely from video game violence vs. real life violence. Sexual objectification from characters being portrayed this way can be exhibited in real life on a much smaller scale that does not lead to bloodshed in the streets with twenty dead, but it still affects people (women) in a very real way. It also lets men get away with it in a very real way.

It's honestly outrageously offensive for you to sit here posting about how it doesn't harm anyone and how people should just be allowed their sexual perversions along with your fearmongering about "a slippery slope" of censorship. The fact that you so easily boil it down to "it's not hurting anyone" is a direct objectification of women and young girls because in saying that, you validate real-life sexualization in the same way; that "it's not hurting anyone." You are wrong that it does not hurt anyone. It hurts us.

It's not "a slippery slope of censorship." It's something that we would like to have stop happening because it affects us in real life. We would like to stop being sexualized and having young girls be sexualized. Arguing that video games do not encourage that is false. Every sexualization and objectification encourages it, period. Not only that, it is horrifyingly alarming that you are making these arguments with tones of pedophilia apologism and trying to normalize these concepts.

This shouldn't even be in line with censorship. It should be in line with human decency.

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Just to add a bit to this excellent deconstruction, I have a question to you, Elipzio. At what age were you first harassed in a sexual manner? I can't, of course, evaluate your experience, but as a cis straight man, I can say that hasn't happened ever, and any expressions of sexual interest from the opposite sex haven't happened to me until I was well into my late teens.

And do you know what the women I know tell me when I ask them this question? 12. 10. Even 8. Imagine, an 8-year-old girl, being called obscene sexual things by old men on the streets and touched in inappropriate places by sleezy uncles. This happens all the time, and the media and its objectification of women is the direct cause of this. The younger the portrayal, the younger it seems acceptable for those people to do it.

So yes, this is a serious social issue and has nothing to do with censorship and everything to do with listening to and protecting the women who later get harassed because of this

Me irl right now at this whole thread.

http://gif-finder.com/wp-content/upl...ter-Crying.gif

Shorty is right.

I could write my own wall of text too, but I cannot be bothered because I'm really not interested in Star Ocean. I am however sick of boob shots and under skirt shots because just what is the point? and in before "but men are sexualised too!" yes, yes they are. I am so aware that they are, but sexualisation of men in the media does not then have an impact on young men like it does on young women.

Young women like me, who get catcalled by arseholes from vans as they speed past, who gets stared up and down if I wear a skirt, who is actually completely put off wearing skirts/low cut tops because it just encourages men to sexualise me because it is just so 'normal'.

So in the end, in simple terms, I guess the issue here isn't "ew, this is gross, I don't wanna see it", but "I don't want to see my body reduced to a piece of meat over and over and over"

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Originally Posted by Fynn

To be clear - censorship happens when people's free speech is systemically limited. Think letters that get intercepted with important data erased out with a marker, or being thrown into jail for saying (not even acting on - just saying) a political opinion that is different from what the government allows, or newspapers being banned from posting anything else than what the government allows because other content could threaten their authority.

A company willingly deciding to cover up a character in their game for a foreign release to avoid backlash stemming from Values Dissonance is not censorship in any stretch of the word.

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This is interesting. I wonder, if Kate Chopin's The Storm was not published during her lifetime due to its sexual themes and positive depiction of adultery, especially coming from a female author, being deemed socially unacceptable -- but not being governmentally blocked -- does this mean her being prevented from freely expressing her ideas, based not on law but on public perception, is not an act of censorship?

Can you put panty shots in your game? Absolutely. Should you put them in your game? Not in this instance, no.

If it's going to be a pornographic game, fair enough. It is what it says it is and everyone consuming it expects sexuality. Slipping them into a perfectly standard RPG is just sad though. Do you have such little faith in your game's ability to captivate your audience that you have to resort to the lowest common denominator? Fair play to them for recognising the cultural differences and tailoring their product to their intended audience.

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Originally Posted by Psychotic

Can you put panty shots in your game? Absolutely. Should you put them in your game? Not in this instance, no.

If it's going to be a pornographic game, fair enough. It is what it says it is and everyone consuming it expects sexuality. Slipping them into a perfectly standard RPG is just sad though. Do you have such little faith in your game's ability to captivate your audience that you have to resort to the lowest common denominator? Fair play to them for recognising the cultural differences and tailoring their product to their intended audience.

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Sadly, this is becoming more and more common as otaku culture is being pandered to increasingly often in games that are relatively mainstream

To quote Miyazaki, "Anime was a mistake" :p

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Originally Posted by Rez09

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Originally Posted by Fynn

To be clear - censorship happens when people's free speech is systemically limited. Think letters that get intercepted with important data erased out with a marker, or being thrown into jail for saying (not even acting on - just saying) a political opinion that is different from what the government allows, or newspapers being banned from posting anything else than what the government allows because other content could threaten their authority.

A company willingly deciding to cover up a character in their game for a foreign release to avoid backlash stemming from Values Dissonance is not censorship in any stretch of the word.

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This is interesting. I wonder, if Kate Chopin's The Storm was not published during her lifetime due to its sexual themes and positive depiction of adultery, especially coming from a female author, being deemed socially unacceptable -- but not being governmentally blocked -- does this mean her being prevented from freely expressing her ideas, based not on law but on public perception, is not an act of censorship?

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This is an act of censorship because her freedom of speech is limited. Nowadays, such things would be published by niche audiences. The difference is that in the case of Star Ocean, Bravely Second, Dragon Quest VIII, what have you, the decision to change is made by the authors in order to respect cultural differences and in general just be sensitive and express basic human decency

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Originally Posted by Fynn

Sadly, this is becoming more and more common as otaku culture is being pandered to increasingly often in games that are relatively mainstream

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Also, as an enjoyer of said culture, I don't need it to pander to me in all my mainstream games. If I want a game about Loli catgirls, Nekopara is right there on Steam for a hell of a lot less money than Star Ocean (and a hell of a lot more cat girl).

It's kinda like... if you wanna go to the sex shop and get some porn; great! That's totally cool. When the local supermarket doesn't put that same content on its shelves; that's not censorship. That's just the supermarket realising that maybe their audience by and large isn't gonna be too pleased with it.

Maybe it's also illegal to put porn in the supermarket, I don't know. But for the sake of the example lets pretend its not ^^

Blah blah blah objectification, cry me a river. Come back when you complain about being murdered or robbed and then maybe, maybe I'll allow your double hipocrisy standards to slip through and take your arguments seriously. "Violence is totally okay but sex crimes are not!", lol, you guys are hilarious. It's either both or nothing, but saying that games that encourage one thought are fine but ones that so-called encourage the other are not is some fine double standards y'all are having there. Get real.

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Originally Posted by Elpizo

Blah blah blah objectification, cry me a river. Come back when you complain about being murdered or robbed and then maybe, maybe I'll allow your double hipocrisy standards to slip through and take your arguments seriously. "Violence is totally okay but sex crimes are not!", lol, you guys are hilarious. It's either both or nothing, but saying that games that encourage one thought are fine but ones that so-called encourage the other are not is some fine double standards y'all are having there. Get real.

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I guess in order to be taken seriously about objectification and violence toward women, I need to mention that myself and many other women I am close to - women who are on this online forum who are reading these responses - have been sexually assaulted or raped by men who have objectified them.

So get real yourself. There are no double standards here. Just women asking to be treated like humans and hoping for video games to not perpetuate violence and objectification toward women. If that's too much to ask from people like you, you are the problem here. Your violent response above is an attempt to justify how you want to further objectify women and young girls. That is disgusting.

It must be nice to live in a world where you don't worry about how media is going to rationalize how you can be mistreated by the opposite sex. Any measures to curb that like "western censorship" I am 100% for.