I don't know what to do with you, D. You're the only intelligent FF7-player I know that still believes Sephiroth was the main evil. *shakes head in mock sadness*
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I don't know what to do with you, D. You're the only intelligent FF7-player I know that still believes Sephiroth was the main evil. *shakes head in mock sadness*
Heh. Jenova was always in the background, a "puppetmaster" of sorts, but with no distinct "presence" in the game. A completely inhuman entity, virtually devoid of anything that a player could interpret or 'connect' with. Sephiroth provides a good means of personifying that evil, giving it a face and a unique identity, with virtually the same goals and values. It's like Exdeath taking human form in FFV, rather than having the party chase a tree around the world...
Jenova was more or less inert, at least the characters in the game appeared to think so. Gast and co. thought she was dead, which is a pretty reasonable assumption after millennia embedded in solid rock; Jenova never sought to break out of Shinra's confinement, even when they started extracting bits and pieces for experimentation purposes. (Of course, there's the additional theory that Jenova wanted those experiments to take place, and that even things like Mako reactors and the Wutai war were her doing, but I'll not go into that...) So basically, Jenova was either content to be used for years, or else was nearly devoid of active powers as a result of her treatment at the hands of the Cetra. That power naturally would return after being freed by Sephiroth and flung into the Lifestream, but even then it'd still be limited, presumably - beheading is often a bit of a setback, even for power-tripping alien busybodies.
Even then, Jenova's powers are apparently passive rather than active. Influencing minds, crafting illusions, leaving false trails. The only time Jenova's powers take an active role is when the illusory Sephiroth is around: the decision-making, the pontificating, the violence and bloodshed is all heralded by the actions of the being that looks, thinks, and reasons like Sephiroth. The final fights take place against beings with Sephiroth's approximate form. The fights against Jenova are quite telling: Birth, Life and Death comprise almost the entirety of Jenova's body, yet they never move or speak, only fighting like mindless things until they're destroyed - like they're running on instinct, perhaps a potent form of the Reunion instinct. The rest of Jenova is being lugged around in the form of Sephiroth. Then, the party reaches the North Cave, and it's time for Jenova's head to burst onto the scene: Jenova-SYNTHESIS, or perhaps one should say, Jenova-LEFTOVERS since that creature is little more than Jenova's head and a few extraneous chunks and tentacles. SYNTHESIS is clearly one of the most powerful opponents in the game, understandable since Jenova's head, and therefore her brain and mind, are at its core. However, the even more deadly foes are the ones that combine the powers of Sephiroth, Jenova and the Planet together into one - Bizarro Sephiroth and Safer Sephiroth.
Without the Sephiroth component, Jenova is consistently fallible and less effectual, throughout the game. Hence my belief that Sephiroth was a big part of things. We know that Sephiroth, not Jenova, used the Black Materia and called the Meteor, because the Materia was handed over to him. That act would make no sense unless he wanted to unleash its power and reap the rewards; otherwise Jenova simply would've got the orb delivered to her, and done the deed without her son's aid. Jenova clearly needed Sephiroth in some way, and for that reason he lead the charge and was at the forefront of their combined assault upon the world.
Hmm. Been a while since I posted anything that long-winded. *Searches for life*
I stand by the idea that SYNTHESIS is more than just the head, the name alone suggests it is the first part of the reunion. The later bosses indicate the final steps in the reunion, after merging with Sephiroth (one of the last main sources of Jenova left to be joined).
As you said Jenova's power are largely passive (though she's still damn tough physically). Doesn't this suggest though that instead of Sephiroth being the brains behind the muscle of Jenova, it was in fact the other way around?
Jenova didn't do any violence? She wiped out the Cetra!
After being dug up, she was too weak physically to do anything herself. Hence, Sephiroth. Sephiroth, before he went insane, was cold and calculating. He didn't care. After he went insane, he was sadistic and blood-craving. That sounds like influence from Jenova to me.
I meant, after she got dealt to by the Cetra. She was uniquely destructive before then, but rather inert afterward.[q=PhoenixAsh]I stand by the idea that SYNTHESIS is more than just the head, the name alone suggests it is the first part of the reunion. The later bosses indicate the final steps in the reunion, after merging with Sephiroth (one of the last main sources of Jenova left to be joined).Quote:
Originally posted by Raistlin
Jenova didn't do any violence? She wiped out the Cetra!
[/q]And that stands to reason, too. However, take a look at SYNTHESIS - it's more than just the head, certainly, but the head is the only distinct part of it. The rest is mainly empty space... After the defeat of Jenova.DEATH, there was nothing left of Jenova's body, hence Sephiroth's timely assertion that "this body has no more use". SYNTHESIS, I believe, includes all the cells released from the bodies of the clones that actually made it to the crater. BIRTH, LIFE and DEATH are made of bits of Jenova's main body, dropped off in an attempt to thwart the party. They were killed, then apparently ceased to be. The Clones, however, were able to make it to the North Cave - because there was an actual mind they could influence and drive. I doubt a piece of brainless matter on its own could do a heck of a lot; the Clones were essential to the Reunion process - as were Cloud and Sephiroth.[q=PhoenixAsh]As you said Jenova's power are largely passive (though she's still damn tough physically). Doesn't this suggest though that instead of Sephiroth being the brains behind the muscle of Jenova, it was in fact the other way around?[/q]Jenova's psychological influence, too, appears to be somewhat passive. The Clones, because of their Jenova cells, were susceptible to Sephiroth's summons; Jenova's powers were widely used by the main foes. But Jenova didn't appear to make many conscious decisions for Sephiroth. She gave ideas, he followed, but appeared to be in control of himself. As Jenova is a part of him, so too would he share her natural impulses. If your father likes swords and you do too, then that's a sign of inheritance or upbringing rather than direct manipulation. Jenova appeared content to let Sephiroth handle his grand schemes for divinity and conquest, since he was equally determined to bond with her after becoming the new "God". That part of his desire may well have been her doing, whether actively or passively is less important. She could just bide her time, waiting to be re-assembled, waiting to become whole and powerful again, once her son had defeated all those who had defeated her before.
No one seems to remember what Hojo says in the North Cave in Disc II... I don't remember verbatim myself, but I'll do my best to recap here...
Hojo is talking about his Reunion theory in the North Cave, and he says his initial impression was that the clones would move to Midgar where Jenova was being stored. HOWEVER, Jenova itself began to move away from the Shinra building. This is the trail of blood the party chases in Disc I in the Shinra HQ. Jenova manifests itself as Sephiroth - that's why Sephiroth's sword is stuck through President Shinra. Obviously if Jenova can do that, it can make itself another sword, thus becoming the Sephiroth image you chase through the first 1 1/2 discs.
Hojo then says that the presence of Sephiroth at the North Cave proves that Jenova and the clones (in short, all of Jenova's cells) came to the North Cave through Sephiroth's will. He says Sephiroth is the one in control of the clones. He says Sephiroth is not merely content to diffuse his will into the Lifestream, he wishes to directly manipulate the clones (I believe that's verbatim).
So, I suppose this evidence comes out on Big D's side by showing Sephiroth is behind the whole show. Using his Jenova cells to manipulate Cloud, the clones, and even the body of Jenova, Sephiroth runs the show.
The only thing left to ponder is why does Sephiroth go nuts in the first place? 5 years ago, in Nibelheim?
[q=POD]The only thing left to ponder is why does Sephiroth go nuts in the first place? 5 years ago, in Nibelheim?[/q]This could be due to a number of things, and ultimately I'm not sure if it alters our understanding much:
As far as Cloud can tell, Sephiroth went beserk after reading Shinra's reports and discovering that he was meant to be a "reincarnated" Cetra, and that the Cetra had all died in an immense struggle while their weaker cousins humans, fled. He felt hurt and betrayed by everyone and everything, and wanted to take the world back with his mother, Jenova. His insane but doggedly resolute rampage could've been due to a subtle influence from Jenova, as well. She can project images and whisper into people's minds, so she could have added her voice to Sephiroth's simmering resentment, pushing him over the edge.
In the fourth battle, Cloud fights Sephiroth face to face,
without the power of Jenova to contend with...and utterly slaughters
Sephiroth. Yet, Sephiroth seemed so strong during the game. How can he
be this weak? The answer is simple. Sephiroth seems weak because
Sephiroth is weak. He is merely a puppet of Jenova, hence the
revelation of the true villain of Final Fantasy VII.
So now that we know that Sephiroth's not the real villain,
what exactly is Jenova, anyway? Let's journey to Icicle Inn, watch a
certain video tape which just happens to be titled "The Original Crisis,"
and find out. When we go into Professor Gast’s old house, we see a video
of him and Ifalna. Ifalna explains that the Cetra were wiped out by
something called 'the Crisis from the Sky.'
This creature was an alien life form that came from outer
space and insinuated itself into the Cetra's various cultures throughout
the world, gained their trust, and then spread a plague into their
society gradually killing almost all of them off. It also crashed
something enormous into the Planet (possibly Meteor), causing a wound,
at the northern crater, which was never able to heal. Ifalna describes
the creatures appearance in this line, "When the Cetra were preparing to
depart from the land they loved...That's when it appeared. It looked like
...our...our dead mothers...and our dead brothers. Showing us spectres
of their past." Whatever this creature was, it had the ability to reach
into people minds and show them illusions, thus altering their memories.
It is interesting that Sephiroth calls the crater the Promised
Land when he kills Aeris, when it is, in fact, an injury that threatens
the planet (another one of the games illusions). After the plague, a
few of the Ancients managed to survive, track the creature down, and
seal it away. However they weren't able to destroy it because of its
remarkable ability to replicate itself. In the second video, we find
out the name of this 'Crisis from the Sky' and the name is, surprise,
Jenova. And poor old brilliant, but doomed Professor Gast, what can he
do with this information but turn away from Ifalna, as if deeply
disturbed by something? Hey, didn't he head up some scientific
experiment for the Shinra called 'The Jenova Project?' or something?
So now we know that Jenova killed off the Cetra, whereas as
Sephiroth puts the blame on "those who appeared that disliked their
journey" for their demise and believes he and Jenova to be the sole
survivors of the Cetra as revealed in his revelation to Cloud/Zack in
the Shinra mansion basement. Jenova was sealed away and forgotten. Two
thousand years later and thirty years before the beginning of the game,
Jenova is rediscovered. In the years that immediately follow a huge
world war breaks out and the first Mako Reactors are created. Is this a
coincidence? When Sephiroth is in the Shinra basement, going insane,
he reads aloud this document "Jenova Project approved. The use of Mako
Reactor number one approved for use." Wow, the first Mako reactor was
set up exactly at the time when the Jenova Project, and the creation
of Sephiroth, was set into motion.
Jenova was not simply manipulating Sephiroth. She was
manipulating everything. She was the founder of the Shinra (translated
as 'God') Corporation. Remember when Cloud freaks out just before he
sets the bombs up that are to destroy the Mako Reactors in Midgar?
This is because he is going against the will of Jenova. She
subliminally guided the scientists under her wing to create Sephiroth,
her 'son.' She set up the Mako Reactors to weaken the planet and
prepare it for its easy destruction. Look at the seal around Holy
before the final battle and you'll see that it consists of a red
colored rock structure, just like Meteor. Jenova used the power of the
Black Materia in order to contain Holy. Remember how the Shinra
originally were weapons manufacturers who grew in wealth from the war
that occurred? She probably started that war as part of her plan to
attain the wealth to build the Mako reactors which would be her tool for
her enslavement of the human race. She even implanted her cells into
the most elite of her army, SOLDIER, in order to have a powerful
fighting force of slaves to serve her. She accomplishes her ends in the
present, just as she did in the past, by insinuating herself into the
ruling society, taking control of it, and manipulating it, all the
while keeping her true self and her efforts unseen.
A well-conceived argument, but I have a few issues with it...
[q=astrognats]In the fourth battle, Cloud fights Sephiroth face to face, without the power of Jenova to contend with...and utterly slaughters Sephiroth. Yet, Sephiroth seemed so strong during the game. How can he be this weak? The answer is simple. Sephiroth seems weak because
Sephiroth is weak. He is merely a puppet of Jenova, hence the revelation of the true villain of Final Fantasy VII.[/q]
I don't see how this relates to Sephiroth's manipulation of the Jenova Reunion. If Jenova was the central villain, Jenova would be the center of the Reunion, not Sephiroth. Also, you seem to dismiss Sephiroth too quickly - did you consider the possibility that Sephiroth is strong, but Cloud is stronger? Also, did you consider that the last battle could be in terms of consciousness, as the discussion hinged on earlier?
A more general concern (directed mostly at astro and Big D, but whoever else thinks this as well :D) relates to Jenova's passive abilities. We know for a fact that Jenova has not messed around in Tifa's head, since Jenova is not present in Tifa, and since what Tifa remembers actually happened. We also know for a fact that Jenova is present in Cloud. Now, does Jenova influence Cloud to take Zack's story, or does Cloud do it himself? There is no direct evidence for either case, so we can't rely on this to help us examine Jenova's passive abilities. Thus, the only two explicit instances of Jenova's abilities in the game is when a) "Sephiroth" shows Cloud and Tifa Nibelheim at the North Cave, and b) when Ifalna recounts the "dead mothers and brothers" - presumably effects of Jenova's spell or whatever. I will dismiss part b) by saying that Jenova actively killed the Cetra through viruses or whatever - it wasn't passive. Therefore, all we're left with is "Sephiroth" saying Jenova has all these grand abilities, when "Sephiroth" is actually a manifestation of Jenova. Bluff, anyone? Especially given that Jenova is not in Tifa's memories, and is inconclusively so in Cloud?
If i was an alien and i was trying to strike fear into people, i would definitly make myself out to be what everyone feared.
Everyone fears the most powerful person. Especially if that person kills at will and unmercifully.
astrognats... im right there with ya man. i feel ya dawg
btw, something that was said and never cleared up on the first page. the two people that they are talking about in the reports are Zack and Cloud. the stronger being Zack and the weaker being Cloud.
Another piece of evidence against Jenova being the catalyst for... well... most things:
Godo says in Wutai he himself started the war against Shinra. Do Yuffie's quest if you don't believe me. He started it for his own selfish purposes. Now, he couldn't have been influenced by Jenova, because he never met Jenova, or rather, Jenova never met him. In addition, he has no Jenova cells. Jenova never met Tifa; Jenova's cells aren't in Tifa, therefore Jenova could not and did not alter Tifa's memories. (This is a conclusion drawn from earlier direct evidence.) Therefore, the same applies for Godo. So Jenova couldn't have been behind the war if Godo was.
edit/addition: More evidence for Sephiroth and against Jenova...
[q=astrognats]Look at the seal around Holy before the final battle and you'll see that it consists of a red colored rock structure, just like Meteor. Jenova used the power of the Black Materia in order to contain Holy. [/q]
That was Sephiroth containing Holy, not Jenova. Bugenhagen reveals in Disc II in the City of the Ancients that it is Sephiroth getting the way of Holy, not Jenova. Play the part again if you don't believe it.
[q=POD]That was Sephiroth containing Holy, not Jenova. Bugenhagen reveals in Disc II in the City of the Ancients that it is Sephiroth getting the way of Holy, not Jenova. Play the part again if you don't believe it.[/q] In the interests of playing devil's advocate, I should point out that everyone in the game believed Sephiroth was behind everything. Jenova was never really a big deal for most of them, just some mean old research specimen trying to wreak havoc.[q=POD]Another piece of evidence against Jenova being the catalyst for... well... most things:
Godo says in Wutai he himself started the war against Shinra. Do Yuffie's quest if you don't believe me. He started it for his own selfish purposes. Now, he couldn't have been influenced by Jenova, because he never met Jenova, or rather, Jenova never met him. In addition, he has no Jenova cells. Jenova never met Tifa; Jenova's cells aren't in Tifa, therefore Jenova could not and did not alter Tifa's memories. (This is a conclusion drawn from earlier direct evidence.) Therefore, the same applies for Godo. So Jenova couldn't have been behind the war if Godo was.[/q]Actually, Jenova's powers of illusion can extend to those who aren't infected with her cells. The Cetra was deceived and manipulated; the entire party was brought into Sephiroth's illusion of Nibelheim at the Whirlwind Maze... Jenova's powers are far-reaching, just no so potent against those who don't carry her cells. Yet I digress.
I agree that your evidence does support the view that Sephiroth is one bad dude, in terms of his actions.
I considered those same points before constructing my points, but the reason I dismissed them were as follows.
1. I felt Jenova actively, rather than passively, screwed around with the Cetra. I still don't understand how exactly she killed a bunch of them off other than spreading a virus, but isn't that active? (I don't see what it has to do with Ifalna's "our dead mothers and brothers" rant, but whatever.)
2. [q="Big D"]the entire party was brought into Sephiroth's illusion of Nibelheim at the Whirlwind Maze[/q]
Exactly. Thanks. :D
I assume by Sephiroth you meant Jenova, but at this point Jenova's main body has been defeated and Sephiroth is projecting these visions, not Jenova.
3. I'm not sure if that's exactly a devil's advocate position, but the first point raised is a good one. Everyone in the game believes it, why shouldn't you?
[q=POD]I don't see what it has to do with Ifalna's "our dead mothers and brothers" rant, but whatever.[/q]In order to get close enough to the Cetra undetected, Jenova disguised herself as the fallen relatives of the remaining Cetra. They'd welcome home the loved ones they'd presumed were dead, only to realise they'd been fooled. By then, it'd be too late. They'd get infected and transform.Yep. Sephiroth's powers are almost entirely derived from Jenova; without her cells in his body, he'd be more or less a normal human. Her powers of illusion were passed onto him. I just mentioned that bit about the Nibelheim illusion because it shows that Sephiroth can construct images in the minds of those without Jenova cells.Quote:
I assume by Sephiroth you meant Jenova, but at this point Jenova's main body has been defeated and Sephiroth is projecting these visions, not Jenova.
Jenova's powers lived on in Sephiroth; he was able to combine her magical abilities with the human elements of greed and pride, becoming something perhaps even more threatening. The worst of both worlds, you could say.
Yeah - that fits in with Hojo's theory about how Sephiroth manipulated things through Jenova cells.