why does the french have to be the scapegoat?

There's also the fact that a large portion of France (known as Vichy France) actually corroborated with the Nazis, by sending French Jews to the death camps, using their factories to produce weapons for the German armies, and even allowing their own men to be drafted into the German armies. Yes, this was all at the will of the people of Vichy France, who wanted no more than to stay warm and safe in their homes. And that, ladies and gentlemen, was a huge show of cowardice in the eyes of many other nations.

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Originally Posted by DocFrance

Go for it.

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Nah, I'd get banned, I nearly got banned for puting a Gaugin painting on my sig...

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There's also the fact that a large portion of France (known as Vichy France) actually corroborated with the Nazis, by sending French Jews to the death camps, using their factories to produce weapons for the German armies, and even allowing their own men to be drafted into the German armies. Yes, this was all at the will of the people of Vichy France, who wanted no more than to stay warm and safe in their homes. And that, ladies and gentlemen, was a huge show of cowardice in the eyes of many other nations.

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Wow, well, if people did that, then we can easily conclude that all of France are cowards. And all Americans are patriots and fat. And all Spaniards like bull fighting. And all Palestines blow themselves up. And anyone who arrives to the conclusions I just showed is a simple-minded individual.


Plus, may I add that France is also the place where I find some of the moments in history I find more admirable. 1789, anyone? 1830, read Les Miserables, seen Delacroix paintings? 1848, anyone read Marx? 1968, Sartre, Marcuse, Focault, Deleuze...

Well, that. Not everything about them is that bad. Petit dejuneur is, though. ARGH!

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Originally Posted by War Angel

Denmark did not submit to Nazi rule the way France did. For example, Denmark's resistance group was perhaps the most active in all of Europe, while France's fabled 'la resistance' did close to nothing. Denmark held a philosophy, that by not fighting against their ultimately powerful foe (since Denmark was small, and Grmany wasn't), it could save the lives of its citizens. And indeed, for example, almost all of Denmark's Jews were saved. While France was a large and strong nation, that had no reason to fall on its knees like that.

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Come here and tell that to the few remaining people who were part of the Resistance. Then I might take you seriously.

Let's talk about Belgium. Had they had decent commanders, maybe, just maybe, using something other than treaties to defend its borders, maybe the Germans wouldn't have reached France in 2-3 days. WE French and British defended what was left of Belgium and ended in Dunkerque (Dunkirk) where we got the Brits escaped at the expense of the loss of our troops. I mean, gee, if you're going to bash my country, check your facts. We got raped and razed by the Blitzkrieg, our commanders were trout on that. Maginot Line? Don't make me laugh. We expected Germans to fight a WWI kind of war, and they caught us "with our pants down". Once the Germans reached Paris and surrounded it, the choice was: surrender or face a siege, and at that point, we didn't have what it takes to face a siege anymore. The "surrender" myth about France comes from the Collaboration, not the surrendering to the Germans. Pétain thought he could buy favors from Germany by overdoing his "job", and we still have scars from that.

Also, a lot of people in France at that time didn't fight the Jewish deportation because they were told by the Gov't/Hitler what they wanted to hear: that the Jews were responsible for the troubles of Europe etc..., and even more because they were simply scared of the price they'd have to pay for it (be deported/killed/...). Only a small minority was actively antisemitic. Not everyone. Come and tell my grandparents to their face that because they came out alive from WWII while living in Paris, they have to be pro-nazi/cowards/antisemitic.

nb: It's "petit-déjeuner"

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Originally Posted by Shadow Nexus

Plus, may I add that France is also the place where I find some of the moments in history I find more admirable. 1789, anyone? 1830, read Les Miserables, seen Delacroix paintings? 1848, anyone read Marx? 1968, Sartre, Marcuse, Focault, Deleuze...

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I never said that all of France was bad. I was simply stating a fact about France during World War II. France definitely has a respectable culture. I lived in France for several years, and, while most of the people I met were snooty and rude, I generally enjoyed my time there. I try not to dwell on the past, so I base my views of the French on my experience.

It makes no sense to me why the French are stereotyped this way anyway. Even if you use the *flawed* argument that they have yet to win a war, you have to take into consideration, not only the Hundred Years War, and Napoleon, but also the fact that United Germany never has either. For my part I love France. The language, the culture. Even my hero (Voltaire) is French. I usually try to stand up for the French side in an argument, but (I'm probably stereotyping here, but I've seen enough of people like this around here that they're definatly not the minority) I live in the midwestern US and Patriotism and anti-French sentiment is pretty high here, and I find it most irritating.

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It's "petit-déjeuner"

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Even worse!

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while most of the people I met were snooty and rude

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Um...me too :D With that I must agree, generally people were preety rude.

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Even my hero (Voltaire) is French

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Erm...not him again. He's the kind of peedantic illustrated guy I never really liked, plus he followed Locke, while everyone knows Rousseau is The One. And Rousseau and Voltaire were not really friends, at least judging by the subtle things Rousseau speaks about Voltaire in The Social Contract (He dosen't mention him, but you know he's refering to Voltaire).

Of course, Rousseau abandoned his five children. But that dosen't make him evil, it makes him Manly and Cool, like Vin Diesel.

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Let's talk about Belgium.

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France mk. 2

Tehy are the 'scapegoat' (or as I would call it, object of ridicule), for a few reasons:

1: The French have consistantly been weak in this century. Ever since Napoleon, they have been giving off this vibe of "I'm scared, please don't hurt me." In fact, one of my favorite General Patton quotes is "I'd rather have a German division in front of me than a French one behind me."

2: The French are blatantly hipocritical. They critisize us for an action qhich directly killed something like 6,000 citizens at most, and saved millions in the long run, yet are responsible for the massacre of 800,000 Africans without flinching. Further, they were asking us to let negotionations work while they were violating the embargo and selling Iraq illegal weapons.

Just a few.

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at that point, we didn't have what it takes to face a siege anymore.

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Yeah, 'cause then, like, people would get killed, and stuff. Eeeewww, war.


Seriously though, I've got beefs with almost any European nation, especially during the time of the second world war. So, Frenchies, don't feel special. I hate everyone equally.

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2: The French are blatantly hipocritical. They critisize us for an action qhich directly killed something like 6,000 citizens at most, and saved millions in the long run, yet are responsible for the massacre of 800,000 Africans without flinching. Further, they were asking us to let negotionations work while they were violating the embargo and selling Iraq illegal weapons.

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:eek:

You mean France does EVIL THINGS!?!?!? Oh, thanks God USA is a wonderful country that cares about human rights, dignity, ecology and peace. And of course, it has a wonderful system that fights for the humanization of society, combats alienation and loss of objectives, along with instrumental reason. Thanks God USA exists as Pure Light to fight evil France, which is Absolut Darkness.

Now I have come to realize French people are undoubtely evil, because not only they say "petit-déjeuner"- the most annoying word in hsitory- but they have a country that does evil things.

I have them right above me, I'll go to Perpinyan and pee on their doors. Ha! Take that, you petit-déjeuners!!!

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You mean France does EVIL THINGS!?!?!? Oh, thanks God USA is a wonderful country that cares about human rights, dignity, ecology and peace. And of course, it has a wonderful system that fights for the humanization of society, combats alienation and loss of objectives, along with instrumental reason. Thanks God USA exists as Pure Light to fight evil France, which is Absolut Darkness.

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That's a Red Herring/Ad Hominem Tu Quoque Fallacy. Come back later.

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I have them right above me, I'll go to Perpinyan and pee on their doors. Ha! Take that, you petit-déjeuners!!!

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I am French, dumbass.

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That's a Red Herring/Ad Hominem Tu Quoque Fallacy. Come back later.

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Nah, I wasn't trying to make an argument, I was just trying to be sarcastic. I knwo what ad hominem is, thank you, I know how to avoid it too, thank you, but there is quite a difference between trying to make an argument and that pseudo-trolling ^_^

When can I come back?

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I am French, dumbass.

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From Perpinyan? Then watch your door :D

I could only read about 1/2 this till people started attacking eachother. It sucks that the whole world doesn't get along. A French man once told me "the reason you americans hate us so much is because we are as arrogant as you are". This made a lot of sense at the time. So I tried giving them a chance at the England vs France Rugby finals. I let a french guy buy me a beer. Then I chatted with some. Then after they lost they caused a lot of trouble, or ran off on their tabs. My boss from England pulled one out of a trashcan (why he crawled in is beyond me), and the guy wiped his face paint on my boss's 200 dollar Jersey. I have yet to meet a frenchman who is kind to americans. Therefore I can understand where people would use them as a scapegoat

No matter what you say, you shouldn't stereotype a nation based on what one political leader does. Anyway, just a few thoughts I've had while reading this thread:

The German army was far, far, far superior to the French army. Yet the French army fought against them for a long time for the sake of other nations. France wasn't attacked, they declared war on Germany after Germany attacked Poland. Am I right? My history is rusty, but I'm sure that's what happened. I'd rather have a French army in front of me than an American army behind me, based on WWII. Let's look at it in perspective. You have five nations. Nation A attacks Nation B and pretty much wipes out their army. Nation C declares war on them, even though they don't have the strength to defeat them. Nation D decides to just mind his own business and carry on, because hey, he's weaker. Nation E is stronger, but does nothing.

Nation A is obviously the aggressor and is considered the enemy. Germany, in this case.
Nation B is obviously the victim, and is Poland.
Nation C is France.
Nation D is Denmark.
Nation E is America.

You could also say two strong adults, a medium built teen and two kids are in there. One strong adult attacks one kid, the teen fights the adult as best he can but loses, the other kid cowers in the corner (one might say sensibly) and the other adult just sits there and watches - no, I suppose you could say he cheers on the teenager as he gets beaten to a pulp, but what's that going to do?

The French fought as long as they could and they stood up for Poland. The US, for a long time, did nothing but give supplies. The armies didn't get involved until they themselves were threatened.

Of course, I'm not Anti-American either. Because I know that wasn't how every person thought. You can't exactly say that the average British person supported the war. I think we were pretty even with Germany and France with war-support - the only difference is that France and Germany's leaders chose not to go to war, and Britain's leader chose to go.

Just my thoughts, though. I actually think Americans are less liked by the international crowd than the French. Why? Hell, politics once again. Bush isn't exactly the most charismatic sod to grace the white house. :p

Oh, and Doc, regarding post #20: Don't be a prick (ie, don't try to wind people up in the same way any other troll would).

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

Oh, and Doc, regarding post #20: Don't be a prick (ie, don't try to wind people up in the same way any other troll would).

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Heh. Sorry 'bout that. Just get tired of people being ultra-senstive *makes another topic*